So I died of boredom in an Arbitration

[Belligerent_Engine]

Like literally, 25 minutes in I fell into a hole and died because I was busy watching TV. The content isn't more difficult than a sortie mission, but far more tedious. Anyone with half a brain can take a tanked warframe into one of these and be effectively immortal and spam your weapon of choice till you fall asleep and die..

 

I really hope that DE can re-balance survivability at high levels to be more than a binary choice between not taking damage because of stacked damage resistance and getting one-shot by everything at some point.

 

Pre-replies to stuff I know is getting posted below:
"Take a fragile dmg dealing warframe." - Bots block your abilities and you'll get one-shot because you're not CC-ing or killing enemies.

"Just use a suboptimal build if you want a challenge" - My definition of "endgame" is a mode where content is still difficult even when you're optimizing your setup.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Belligerent_Engine

[DrBorris]

I think one of the biggest issues with Arbitrations at the moment could be labeled as a bug, the absolutely abysmal spawn rates. If enemies spawned in an amount like, three-quarter what ESO is, the missions would be quite a bit more engaging and challenging. As it stands, Arbitration spawns feel like Earth missions.

[DiabolusUrsus]

So the critical question is: Are you prepared to accept nerfs to energy economy and regeneration options? If not, you won't be able to obtain the sort of balanced challenge you're talking about.

Energy serving as a meaningless, easily-bypassed limiter to our powers is a huge problem. When enemies only have 0.1 seconds in between getting blinded or suspended in mid-air, that means they have to be capable of killing us within 0.1 seconds to be threatening.

Zenurik needs to be nerfed. Energy restores need to be nerfed. Energy Vampire, etc. need to be nerfed. Nearly every method of energy recovery (Siphon and Orbs are sort of okay) need to be nerfed. Our energy economy needs to be adjusted so that constant CC spam, permanent invisibility, etc. are no longer feasible. Many powers will probably need to be buffed when they must be used more sparingly, but that should be straightforward and easy to accomplish.

That is the only way to build a fair and consistent challenge without nerfing every Warframe power to the point of being anemic.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

25 minutes? Is that all?

You expected a challenge that early in the mission? This is warframe, you have to put up with the boring start before enemies start to ramp up in levels.

[DrBorris]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

So the critical question is: Are you prepared to accept nerfs to energy economy and regeneration options? If not, you won't be able to obtain the sort of balanced challenge you're talking about.

Energy serving as a meaningless, easily-bypassed limiter to our powers is a huge problem. When enemies only have 0.1 seconds in between getting blinded or suspended in mid-air, that means they have to be capable of killing us within 0.1 seconds to be threatening.

Zenurik needs to be nerfed. Energy restores need to be nerfed. Energy Vampire, etc. need to be nerfed. Nearly every method of energy recovery (Siphon and Orbs are sort of okay) need to be nerfed. Our energy economy needs to be adjusted so that constant CC spam, permanent invisibility, etc. are no longer feasible. Many powers will probably need to be buffed when they must be used more sparingly, but that should be straightforward and easy to accomplish.

That is the only way to build a fair and consistent challenge without nerfing every Warframe power to the point of being anemic.

I would argue that it would be better to balance the game around spam than reduce the spam, cool-downs (what a restricted energy economy effectively is) are not fun. Some Warframes are perfectly balanced with effectively infinite energy, and some Warframes don't even need energy to be incredibly powerful. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, although you could call it an 'effective nerf' if game systems were designed to NOT be broken by ability spam like they often are now.

[mikakor]

Just now, Zilchy said:

25 minutes? Is that all?

You expected a challenge that early in the mission? This is warframe, you have to put up with the boring start before enemies start to ramp up in levels. 

no. in sortie you don't have to wait, at sortie stage three. and it's what it was supposed to be. END GAME. sortie also is end game. that, is a mid level mission, with a possibility of dying and not coming back. but it is a mid level mission for any good player of Warframe.  in this game mode, we shouldn't evne have to wait before enemies get to 80, or even start at 100.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, mikakor said:

no. in sortie you don't have to wait, at sortie stage three. and it's what it was supposed to be. END GAME. sortie also is end game. that, is a mid level mission, with a possibility of dying and not coming back. but it is a mid level mission for any good player of Warframe.  in this game mode, we shouldn't evne have to wait before enemies get to 80, or even start at 100.

Sorties aren't challenging either.

[mikakor]

Just now, Zilchy said:

Sorties aren't challenging either.

and that's the problem. these were supposed to be even more challenging than sortie. they are not. they are BORING. i litterally killed myself while taking intentionnal risks, because i was DYING OF BOREDOM. this isn't the endgame missions we were promised, and with on top of that reduced spawn rates of survival pods, and also double timer... it's not hard. it's boring. annoying. makes me sleepy.

[XaoGarrent]

TANK META INTENSIFIES

Seriously, though, I can't agree more. This game mode in its current iteration is extremely awkward, and the low spawns and mechanics of the arbitration drones create a situation where there's literally no reason to do anything but roll a tank.

Any excuse to play more Nezha is a good excuse, but... Maybe leaving out a revive mechanic completely was a bad idea. Just for starters.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, mikakor said:

and that's the problem. these were supposed to be even more challenging than sortie. they are not. they are BORING. i litterally killed myself while taking intentionnal risks, because i was DYING OF BOREDOM. this isn't the endgame missions we were promised, and with on top of that reduced spawn rates of survival pods, and also double timer... it's not hard. it's boring. annoying. makes me sleepy.

Well I will say the enemy scaling is a bit slow but if you stay for long enough it requires a bit more effort. But it's a question of how long you want to stay. 2.5 hours in the enemy was getting reasonably tanky.

[mikakor]

Just now, Zilchy said:

Well I will say the enemy scaling is a bit slow but if you stay for long enough it requires a bit more effort. But it's a question of how long you want to stay. 2.5 hours in the enemy was getting reasonably tanky.

yeah, but in other missions it's more better than that. and are sometimes even lower missions, that get their level one Hundred quickly.  there is a lot of flaws in the arbitrations, the first of them being the double timer / waves before rotation.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, mikakor said:

yeah, but in other missions it's more better than that. and are sometimes even lower missions, that get their level one Hundred quickly.  there is a lot of flaws in the arbitrations, the first of them being the double timer / waves before rotation.

Well the level scaling is better ues but the zero deaths thing keeps you on your toes and prevents you from playing in a blase manner if you want to push really far. So personally I like them. Excavation and Salvage are the most efficient in terms of rewards.

[Belligerent_Engine]

I think the fact that it takes so long for enemies to scale to meaningful levels of health and armor that _bathroom breaks_ become a real issue is a problem unto itself.

As far as a rework of energy - yes please, its another one of those binary gameplay systems where either you're rolling in so much energy you can spam abilities all you want, or you're completely out because you got touched by a mag proc or something.

[trst]

Or you can just take a damage dealing frame and use their abilities on enemies that don't have drones? You don't need to be an Adaptation Inaros to survive endurance runs either.

Like I can't understand the obsession people have over the drones.

There aren't that many that spawn and where a lot do spawn they're all grouped up. That combined with the fact that their death explosion does an insane amount of damage that it either kills the enemies they were shielding or at the very least kill every other drone that was nearby.

Killing one drone just kills all the enemies or kills every other drone.

 

If anything Arbitrations are boring because they're too easy not because of tank frames but because the drone explosions plus the random frame/weapon buff makes it too easy.

[mikakor]

Just now, trst said:

Killing one drone just kills all the enemies

False. not always.

Just now, trst said:

kills every other drone.

false too.

Just now, trst said:

Or you can just take a damage dealing frame and use their abilities on enemies that don't have drones?

yeah, so you depend now on your teammates to save your sorry *ss, because since you can't kill the drone, this means that you are FORCED TO : either run away, or die, if nobody is here to save you. so okay, you kill droneless enemies. and when one arrive to you, you're #*!%ed. nice. gg. see you next arbitration .

[BDMblue]

54 minutes ago, Belligerent_Engine said:

Like literally, 25 minutes in I fell into a hole and died because I was busy watching TV. The content isn't more difficult than a sortie mission, but far more tedious. Anyone with half a brain can take a tanked warframe into one of these and be effectively immortal and spam your weapon of choice till you fall asleep and die..

 

I really hope that DE can re-balance survivability at high levels to be more than a binary choice between not taking damage because of stacked damage resistance and getting one-shot by everything at some point.

 

Pre-replies to stuff I know is getting posted below:
"Take a fragile dmg dealing warframe." - Bots block your abilities and you'll get one-shot because you're not CC-ing or killing enemies.

"Just use a suboptimal build if you want a challenge" - My definition of "endgame" is a mode where content is still difficult even when you're optimizing your setup.

I allways thought that removing energy and replacing it with cool downs and CDR mods would be the way to go.

[Valgaarv]

il y a 35 minutes, Zilchy a dit :

25 minutes? Is that all?

You expected a challenge that early in the mission? This is warframe, you have to put up with the boring start before enemies start to ramp up in levels.

End game means "Mission, quest, raid, where you need a full build and knoledge from the start of it to win" so what we need it´s like: mission start with lv 100-120 enemies, drones only make them invencible, but not nuke them, and have some sort of nigthmare modification instead of a damage/power str buff.

Also the main problem of warframe rigth now it´s the fact we have to wait 30 mins of boring and repetitive stuff to find a challenge, if we just had that challenge at the start of the mission things would be much better.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Valgaarv

[trst]

1 minute ago, mikakor said:

False. not always.

false too.

yeah, so you depend now on your teammates to save your sorry *ss, because since you can't kill the drone, this means that you are FORCED TO : either run away, or die, if nobody is here to save you. so okay, you kill droneless enemies. and when one arrive to you, you're #*!%ed. nice. gg. see you next arbitration .

The only times the drones don't kill enemies is in the case of Ancient Healers or sufficiently leveled Grineer and in every run I've done I've never not seen entire groups of drones pop from killing one of them. Even if drones don't die instantly to the explosion they'd still be left with slivers of health from it.

You also don't need to be Inaros or any other pure tank to run these, and contrary to (seemingly) popular belief you don't need to become a motionless turret to start shooting your guns.

[motorfirebox]

36 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

25 minutes? Is that all?

You expected a challenge that early in the mission? This is warframe, you have to put up with the boring start before enemies start to ramp up in levels.

Yeah, that's not a feature.

[kevekev302]

28 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Well I will say the enemy scaling is a bit slow but if you stay for long enough it requires a bit more effort. But it's a question of how long you want to stay. 2.5 hours in the enemy was getting reasonably tanky.

2.5 hours? Thats a long time for one mission i got kids it can be hard to find time to get to that level...they should absolutely start at 100

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, kevekev302 said:

2.5 hours? Thats a long time for one mission i got kids it can be hard to find time to get to that level...they should absolutely start at 100

Level 60, level 100. Would it make it any harder? They still can't 1 shot you.

[motorfirebox]

Honestly the basic problem is, Warframe gameplay just isn't really all that challenging. Either you bring the right gear and you can stay in the mission pretty much forever, or you don't bring the right gear and the numbers eventually overwhelm you. There's only a very small window where gameplay is challenging but not doomed. Playing the game really really well can expand that window a bit, but beyond a certain point you either CC the map or you die.

[-Player000-]

I think not Getting Ayatan Amber Star is biggest problem for me xD

all i have is Cyan Star and Amber Star for me is like getting a rare prime in normal fissure

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Honestly the basic problem is, Warframe gameplay just isn't really all that challenging. Either you bring the right gear and you can stay in the mission pretty much forever, or you don't bring the right gear and the numbers eventually overwhelm you. There's only a very small window where gameplay is challenging but not doomed. Playing the game really really well can expand that window a bit, but beyond a certain point you either CC the map or you die.

Pretty much this. I think with the right setup the only thing that might eventually force you out is the drones having too much health to kill quickly and that would take a while since they're never going to have any armour.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, Koushal99 said:

I think not Getting Ayatan Amber Star is biggest problem for me xD

all i have is Cyan Star and Amber Star for me is like getting a rare prime in normal fissure

Do syndicate medallion hunts, that's where I find most of mine.