Most Powerful warframes lorewise

[RLanzinger]

Most Powerful warframes "LOREWISE" ...

I remind me of a quizz in the WIKIA after the 20th warframe was release; If I remember well : Excalibur got 51% of votes, next was Saryn, Banshee, Rhino and Nova ...

 

Personnaly, I will prefer going with Nova because nothing is more powerfull than ANTIMATTER. You broke her, you get the most powerfull bomb at point blank ...

LOREWISE, I'd say Saryn because the most terryfing enemy is the Infestation and Saryn was created to fight it ... she is the Infested's Nightmare, The Nightmare that scare of the very Nightmare of every living and non living thing.

As Ballas said : "It came to me like a proverb: Fight poison with... poison. Cure this sick horde with the greatest of plagues. I will call her... Saryn."

 

[-ODIN-SwoleChef]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Making the claim that Umbra was the first

 

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

And it's also pretty safe to say that Excalibur Umbra is the first Warframe ever.

i dont want to get involved in the whole canon vs non-canon debate, but i can say this, that umbra was not the first warframe ever created. Warframes were produced at the height of the old war, and ballas's betrayal occurred near the end of it. Shortly after, the unnamed dax soldier discovered ballas's betrayal and was infected with the helminth, becoming umbra, and killing his son.

[TARINunit9]

29 minutes ago, -ODIN-hugeblackdude said:

and ballas's betrayal occurred near the end of it.

Do you have a source on that? As far as I can tell, it was the Vitruvian that was produced near the end of the Old War, detailing events -- including his betrayal and the creation of Warframes -- that happened near the start of the Old War

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

The problem I have with your stance is that you're going off on a tangent to a tangent. "Canon" and "actually making sense" are separate things, and you can have one and not the other. I have read stories in which the author later declared something new to be canon in favor of something old, except the new thing contradicts OTHER things that are still supposedly canon, and the story literally does not make sense unless you ignore the list of what's "canon"

Like you said - "Canon" and "actually making sense" are separate things. A fan work making sense doesn't make it canon to its source material, and that source material not making sense doesn't make it non-canon to itself. They are separate things.

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

This is before we get to the idea of fans literally making up their own canon. Which they can do and have done

I'm well aware of that, but that's ultimately headcanon or fanon or whatever you want to call it. It's not the work of the original author or a sanctioned source, and therefore, it cannot be considered canon to the source material. Fan canons are effectively a number of derivatives of that source material that are sanctioned by their authors to be considered related to each other, thereby forming their own canon that is seperate from what's considered canon to the source material.

i.e. in the Undertale community, Errortale and Aftertale are considered canonical to one another because they were both written by the same author who said that they were canonical to each other*. Core!Frisk is also canon to both of those because CQ was permitted access to the character, and core is canon to Ask Drunk Chara for the same reason. ADC is itself considered canon with AskFriskandCompany due to a Crossover between the two comics. However, ADC and Error/Aftertale are not necessarily considered canon to each other, and indeed, Errortale is explicitly not canon to AFAC.

And precisely none of them are actually considered canon to Undertale itself.

 

*sort of. The author also said that you're free to interpret the ending of Aftertale as completely seperate, because as they put it "Geno for sure got his happy ending anyway, and his sad ending was never truly written into existence." Oh, and Errortale has its own alternate ending in a completely different work by the same author called 'Christmas Party AU'. And is also partially canon to one of their own original works called Lucidia. Or might be. That work's on hiatus.

 

When removed from 'authorial intent', Canon is reduced to the barest nub of its meaning. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

But as I said, both of the above are tangential to the actual point: I'm not ignoring a hypothetical statement from DE that says "Excalibur Umbra was not the first Warframe." I'm not inserting a fan theory that was developed outside the game. I'm looking at canon sources that say A=B and B=C, and drawing the conclusion that A=C. But you refuse to accept it as both canon and sensible because the game itself doesn't feature A=C

But you haven't. As you yourself have said, you've drawn that conclusion from subtext, so even though all the individual components are canon, the conclusion is not.

In effect, if A = first warframe created, and B = Excalibur, and C = Excalibur Umbra is a form of Excalibur, these are all canon materials, and A = B. However, even though A=B, B=/= C, because C is its own variable. Umbra, after all, isn't the only Excalibur - his codex description reads "From the shadow of the long night emerges a new Excalibur." Plus, of course, the Original Excalibur and the Prime both still exist.

Simply put, the conclusion you've drawn isn't supported. You've observed the canonical source that the first Warframe was an Excalibur, and the canonical source that Excalibur Umbra is a form of Excalibur, and then put together that Umbra is the first Warframe, using subtext. But the game itself doesn't feature A=C or B=C, despite each of those individual variables being canonical to each other.

[-ODIN-SwoleChef]

5 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Do you have a source on that? As far as I can tell, it was the Vitruvian that was produced near the end of the Old War, detailing events -- including his betrayal and the creation of Warframes -- that happened near the start of the Old War

Vitruvian | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom

The entire thing is meant to be a recording for hunhow, meaning that the warframes were being made already, and this was information needed to exploit them. Also, chronologically speaking, what youre asking for makes no sense. Warframes were made during the old war, ballas's betrayal helped end the old war, how would he betray the orokin during the war, before the war started? 

[TARINunit9]

38 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

But you haven't. As you yourself have said, you've drawn that conclusion from subtext, so even though all the individual components are canon, the conclusion is not.

In effect, if A = first warframe created, and B = Excalibur, and C = Excalibur Umbra is a form of Excalibur, these are all canon materials, and A = B. However, even though A=B, B=/= C, because C is its own variable. Umbra, after all, isn't the only Excalibur - his codex description reads "From the shadow of the long night emerges a new Excalibur." Plus, of course, the Original Excalibur and the Prime both still exist.

Simply put, the conclusion you've drawn isn't supported. You've observed the canonical source that the first Warframe was an Excalibur, and the canonical source that Excalibur Umbra is a form of Excalibur, and then put together that Umbra is the first Warframe, using subtext. But the game itself doesn't feature A=C or B=C, despite each of those individual variables being canonical to each other.

Let's just let Ballas speak for himself, shall we? Odin, get the link please:

26 minutes ago, -ODIN-hugeblackdude said:

Vitruvian | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom

"We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents. They transformed. They became Infested... ... but only just. Their skin blossomed into sword-steel. Their organs, interlinked with untold resilience. Yet their minds were free of the Infested madness. Or so we thought. We set them upon the battlefield, bio-drones under our command. The Warframes... All of them... failures."

He is speaking of events that happened a significant amount of time before the recording was recorded, before the Zariman Children morgue was reopened, before Warframes had actually become a mainstay force in the Orokin armies. Then while still speaking about the same failures he adds this:

"We had created monsters we couldn't control. We drugged them, tortured them, eviscerated them... We brutalized their minds... but it did not work."

The camera is pointing directly at Excalibur Umbra as he says this. The devs are making a very clear message: Excalibur Umbra was part of this first abused generation. Excalibur Umbra was part of the drugged/tortured/eviscerated/brutalized. He was not created some amount of time later, he was created right then. 

(I'm going to jump ahead a little bit, but let me add Titania to the equation. Titania was created when the Zariman Children were already awake and being used to control newly-produced Warframes. Silvania mentions this specifically, that there are Z-kids awake and testing themselves on her fresh Warframes. So to recap: the first generation of bio-drones, produced before Z-kids. Second generation, produced after Z-kids. So I pose you this question: why would the Orokin keep abusing Warframe candidates after the Z-kids are awake? It would be a waste of energy; why not just let the Z-kids do their thing? Your theory that Excalibur Umbra was produced last implies that the Orokin would keep needlessly abusing and wasting their energy on a "solution" they already know accomplishes nothing because they already have a different working solution)

26 minutes ago, -ODIN-hugeblackdude said:

Warframes were made during the old war, ballas's betrayal helped end the old war, how would he betray the orokin during the war, before the war started? 

I think you're mistaking what Ballas's betrayal was. Ballas planned to kill his fellow Orokin to avenge Margulis. That was the point of his betrayal (Ballas tells you, right to the POV character, that his planned betrayal is not a recent thing. He has been planning it for a LONG time. He didn't start planning it when the Sentients and Tenno fought, he planned it long before they ever met) When the Sentients show up, he thinks "oh cool, I can sell the Orokin out to these new Sentient guys, and then all the Orokin will be dead. Revenge accomplished."

Unfortunately, thanks to the Tenno, the Orokin started winning

Edited March 17, 2021 by TARINunit9

[-ODIN-SwoleChef]

20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Your theory that Excalibur Umbra was produced last implies that the Orokin would keep needlessly abusing and wasting their energy on a "solution" they already know accomplishes nothing because they already have a different working solution)

i never said anything about which "generation" was abused or not, if you payed attention to the quest, ballas had it out personally for this dax because he got in his way

also, you skipped over the beginning part of the codex and the wiki entry, stating that this was recorded after the warframes were first made

The Vitruvian contains lore regarding the Old War. After the Sentients were sent to terraform the Tau System only to gain sentience and were led by Hunhow to betray their creators, the Orokin cultured the Infested to be used as soldiers. However, when the Infested prove to be uncontrollable, the Orokin built Warframes, which are revealed to be Orokin soldiers infected by a unique strain cultured by the Helminth. However, the Warframes too proved to be uncontrollable until the Zariman survivors were used to inhabit the minds of the Warframes, hidden on Lua. It is then revealed that Ballas intended to send the Vitruvian to Hunhow and disclose the location of the Operators as part of a mutiny following the death of Margulis, but warns him to not underestimate the "devils" that were able to calm the Warframes.

First Entry: Enemy
It is with the greatest of risk that I commit this recording. The codices within reveal the hidden weakness of your most feared enemy. My creations. My Frames of War.

—Ballas
Second Entry: Blasphemy
What led us here? You did. You vile blasphemies. Machines... thinking... breeding... You were to bear us a new, promised land. But when you arrived at that distant world... you knew that in time, we would bring ruin to it as well. As we had to Earth. And so it was... we came to war.

—Ballas
Third Entry: Warframes
Our hubris shone like a black star... for our technology, our war-machines were your kin. How easily you turned them against us. We were forced to older means. Not circuits, nor light... but flesh and disease. Our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies... became gardens! We cultured the Infestation, conceiving of a hybrid. Transformed, but only just. The 'Helminth' was created, born to yield these new warriors, worthy of battle against you. The great and terrible Hunhow. We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents. They transformed. They became Infested... ... but only just. Their skin blossomed into sword-steel. Their organs, interlinked with untold resilience. Yet their minds were free of the Infested madness. Or so we thought. We set them upon the battlefield, bio-drones under our command. The Warframes... All of them... failures. Surprised? They turned on us, just as you did. And so we had no choice but to commit them to grave. This is all you know, Hunhow, but there is a hidden half, a secret, that lies within a place forbidden to you and your kind. I speak of the Void.

This whole recording is the key of ballas' betrayal, and the means of which the dax finds him out. This recording is the most probable way of discovering the betrayal considering ballas knows how risky this is.

28 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The camera is pointing directly at Excalibur Umbra as he says this. The devs are making a very clear message: Excalibur Umbra was part of this first abused generation. Excalibur Umbra was part of the drugged/tortured/eviscerated/brutalized. He was not created some amount of time later, he was created right then.

ehhh thats iffy, just because umbra was in frame doesnt mean ballas is referring specifically to him, as i stated earlier, ballas was pissed that this unnamed dax found him out, and even telepathically insulted him because of it and wanted to see him suffer for nearly ruining his revenge.

 

33 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I think you're mistaking what Ballas's betrayal was. Ballas planned to kill his fellow Orokin to avenge Margulis. That was the point of his betrayal (Ballas tells you, right to the POV character, that his planned betrayal is not a recent thing. He has been planning it for a LONG time. He didn't start planning it when the Sentients and Tenno fought, he planned it long before they ever met) When the Sentients show up, he thinks "oh cool, I can sell the Orokin out to these new Sentient guys, and then all the Orokin will be dead. Revenge accomplished."

im well aware of his betrayal, he wanted to take down the whole empire, not just his own associates, and yes, he saw opportunity when the sentients arrived. But, this still doesnt take away from the fact that ballas created the warframes to combat the sentients first, then his betrayal came second later on

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, -ODIN-hugeblackdude said:

also, you skipped over the beginning part of the codex and the wiki entry, stating that this was recorded after the warframes were first made

Yes, LONG after. That's part of my point. He didn't write it right after he made the first bio-drones, he wrote it significantly later, after the tide of the war had turned and the Sentients were losing again

5 minutes ago, -ODIN-hugeblackdude said:

This whole recording is the key of ballas' betrayal, and the means of which the dax finds him out. This recording is the most probable way of discovering the betrayal considering ballas knows how risky this is.

This assumes that the Vitruvian the player listens to is the same Vitruvian that Umbra Dax found

Which COULD be possible. But as iffy as you think my theory is, I think this theory is even iffier

[-ODIN-SwoleChef]

8 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

This assumes that the Vitruvian the player listens to is the same Vitruvian that Umbra Dax found

Which COULD be possible. But as iffy as you think my theory is, I think this theory is even iffier

(13) The Sacrifice Cutscenes & Dialogue! [Neutral/Balance] (The Warframe Story) - YouTube

15:25

ballas says the dax intercepted his communications, and the vitruvian ballas used wouldve been apart of that

13 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes, LONG after. That's part of my point. He didn't write it right after he made the first bio-drones, he wrote it significantly later, after the tide of the war had turned and the Sentients were losing

exactly, it was AFTER warframes were first made, thus making umbra not the first warframe

13 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

again

the sentients didnt start losing until warframes and tenno came into the equation

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, -ODIN-hugeblackdude said:

(13) The Sacrifice Cutscenes & Dialogue! [Neutral/Balance] (The Warframe Story) - YouTube

15:25

ballas says the dax intercepted his communications, and the vitruvian ballas used wouldve been apart of that

As I already admit, it's definitely POSSIBLE that the very same Vitruvian was included in "my communications", but I don't think it's likely.

When I look at how the Orokin chose untested and dangerous biological warfare over safe and tested void-shielded technology (a single Railjack in the Old War was recorded with 4,890 confirmed Sentient kills, while the Sentients are provably immune to the Infestation; at Ballas's behest, the Orokin chose the Infested. And that was BEFORE the first Warframe whoever it was) and the Octavia Prime trailer (which is basically just two minutes of Ballas taunting "I'm going to kill all you bastards and Octavia is going to fire the first shot") I don't see Ballas making just one act of betrayal once. I see a steady pattern of Ballas sabotaging his peers over time. I don't think the Vitruvian was the first piece of damning evidence, or the last for that matter

[-ODIN-SwoleChef]

17 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

but I don't think it's likely.

why wouldnt it be? thats a major piece of information that the sentients needed, and that getting intercepted would raise a massive flag for ballas.

 

20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

When I look at how the Orokin chose untested and dangerous biological warfare over safe and tested void-shielded technology (a single Railjack in the Old War was recorded with 4,890 confirmed Sentient kills, while the Sentients are provably immune to the Infestation; at Ballas's behest, the Orokin chose the Infested. And that was BEFORE the first Warframe whoever it was) and the Octavia Prime trailer (which is basically just two minutes of Ballas taunting "I'm going to kill all you bastards and Octavia is going to fire the first shot") I don't see Ballas making just one act of betrayal once. I see a steady pattern of Ballas sabotaging his peers over time. I don't think the Vitruvian was the first piece of damning evidence, or the last for that matter

at that point, its just speculation, theres not much that says when or how ballas went through any sort of betrayal attempts. this is the only one we have concrete knowledge on

[TARINunit9]

14 minutes ago, -ODIN-hugeblackdude said:

thats a major piece of information that the sentients needed, and that getting intercepted would raise a massive flag for ballas.

at that point, its just speculation, theres not much that says when or how ballas went through any sort of betrayal attempts. this is the only one we have concrete knowledge on

Indeed to both points. I've made my case with all the canon info, and any further debate would push us both into speculation. Where our theories diverge in the first place rests on this line:

"It is with the greatest risk that I commit this recording"

Your reading is "And so I take the final step into blasphemy by talking to you. If anyone finds this, I have to move fast to escape a treason sentence"

My reading is "We can't keep meeting like this, Hunhow. I was already found out once, and I barely managed to shut him up in time"

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

8 hours ago, CurseOfFilth said:

Well no offense, but you're boring.

You took offense I see lol

[Loza03]

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

"We had created monsters we couldn't control. We drugged them, tortured them, eviscerated them... We brutalized their minds... but it did not work."

The camera is pointing directly at Excalibur Umbra as he says this. The devs are making a very clear message: Excalibur Umbra was part of this first abused generation. Excalibur Umbra was part of the drugged/tortured/eviscerated/brutalized. He was not created some amount of time later, he was created right then. 

Or that it's emphasising the abuse narrative and that Ballas is a sociopathic monster because that same speech has him be totally mystified by the Tenno's strange power that is basic empathy. By highlighting the difference between the Orokin and the Tenno, this provides a stronger connection to the themes of the quest, and the themes of the game.

That is why subtext should not be used for discussions rooted in canon. It's always interpretive. And whilst alternative interpretations are great, they're the backbone of literary analysis and thematic discussion and all that awesome, fun stuff that I love about english literature... they're not what the author has written. They're, in effect, the space between the words where the audience fills it in. Great for meaning, themes and sparking inspiration, but when we're discussing what happened when in a fictional universe, or anything else that requires a firm anchoring in canon, we need to leave those interpretations at the door and bring only the facts to the table. And neither of our interpretations are facts.

It's similar to what happens in this part of your discussion with @-ODIN-hugeblackdude

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Indeed to both points. I've made my case with all the canon info, and any further debate would push us both into speculation. Where our theories diverge in the first place rests on this line:

"It is with the greatest risk that I commit this recording"

Your reading is "And so I take the final step into blasphemy by talking to you. If anyone finds this, I have to move fast to escape a treason sentence"

My reading is "We can't keep meeting like this, Hunhow. I was already found out once, and I barely managed to shut him up in time"

There's subtext that the Vitruvian is the recording. It's found in his lab, it's found next to Umbra, and it's the tool you use to find Umbra. You're meant to draw a connection between them, but what that connection is is unclear and up to interpretation. Therefore, there's no reasonable way to conclude when the Vitruvian was recorded.

It's the exact same situation with Umbra and being the first Warframe. We're clearly meant to take something from Ballas's speech, but what we take from it isn't itself canon information, and thus subtext and interpetation isn't evidence..

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

(I'm going to jump ahead a little bit, but let me add Titania to the equation. Titania was created when the Zariman Children were already awake and being used to control newly-produced Warframes. Silvania mentions this specifically, that there are Z-kids awake and testing themselves on her fresh Warframes. So to recap: the first generation of bio-drones, produced before Z-kids. Second generation, produced after Z-kids. So I pose you this question: why would the Orokin keep abusing Warframe candidates after the Z-kids are awake? It would be a waste of energy; why not just let the Z-kids do their thing? Your theory that Excalibur Umbra was produced last implies that the Orokin would keep needlessly abusing and wasting their energy on a "solution" they already know accomplishes nothing because they already have a different working solution)

By that point, the Orokin would just cut out the middleman. The Z-kids can control the puppets without a clear mind, we know that because 99% of Warframe's built today don't have one, and frames having a mind has proven to be a problem. So they scrubbed that feature. As for why to not let the Z-kids do their thing... well, my interpretation would be that the Orokin are almost all awful people who'd rather have complete control over effectiveness, and thus limited the number of moving parts with their own wills to enforce that. And whilst I can support that with evidence, it's ultimately just speculative based on pre-existing canon information.

(Also, I never theorised Umbra was last? Just that he wasn't the first and was created some time in the mid to late war era, rather than at the start)

[RLanzinger]

Does ANYONE remembers the title said : "Most Powerful warframes lorewise" not theory fighting about Umbra.

 

So I will close the debate about Umbra being first or not by this Lore : "CODEX : From the shadow of the long night emerges a new Excalibur." this mean Umbra is a new Excalibur and there is an old excalibur so he cannot be the first unless DE specified it elsewhere in the codex (but they won't cause the first is HAYDEN TENNO ^^)

Yo childrens,

REMEMBER, the title said : "Most Powerful warframes lorewise" not theory fighting about Umbra.
 

REMEMBER the title said : "Most Powerful warframes lorewise" not theory fighting about My Lore is correct, your not..
 

REMEMBER the title said : "Most Powerful warframes lorewise" not theory fighting about Ballas is a meanie, I have right, you're wrong...

[ChaoticEdge]

6 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Does ANYONE remembers the title said : "Most Powerful warframes lorewise" not theory fighting about Umbra.

 

So I will close the debate about Umbra being first or not by this Lore : "CODEX : From the shadow of the long night emerges a new Excalibur." this mean Umbra is a new Excalibur and there is an old excalibur so he cannot be the first unless DE specified it elsewhere in the codex (but they won't cause the first is HAYDEN TENNO ^^)

Yo childrens,

REMEMBER, the title said : "Most Powerful warframes lorewise" not theory fighting about Umbra.
 

REMEMBER the title said : "Most Powerful warframes lorewise" not theory fighting about My Lore is correct, your not..
 

REMEMBER the title said : "Most Powerful warframes lorewise" not theory fighting about Ballas is a meanie, I have right, you're wrong...

ok, it doesn't mean that we can't copy data to make the frame move on their own, oh wait

Spoiler

 

do apologized going off topic, but this is old lore wise then again let not get off topic.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I know rhino is known it's brutality lore, then again nekro is known bring terror and rez dead ppl if there were no "CAP LIMIT" then I would enjoy unending hoards of minions.  Too many lore who is powerful but they are all equality powerful to me in some ways they are.  Yet again the tenno itself as The Most powerful cuz title don't say such which way.  If we all think about it in the scarlet spear quest or one thous quest about flash back about lotus's time when we were "Possess" thus show how powerful the tenno how they are.  They were the most powerful laser beam void power that would destroy any of sentient.  As again, the orokin did made a special bomb from gara's story if you count the unum as orokin or old orokin then again for there were details about the lore there is left over orokin unchange they are for they are still human being, as yet again we still had not see anything else what is going on with these lost orokin going.

[-ODIN-SwoleChef]

imo rhino and atlas are physically the strongest(rhino is just my opinion though, im not so sure how physically strong other frames are) since rhino was turning armed men into paste by charging at them, and atlas one punch man'd an asteroid big enough to destroy earth

[Loza03]

11 minutes ago, -ODIN-hugeblackdude said:

imo rhino and atlas are physically the strongest(rhino is just my opinion though, im not so sure how physically strong other frames are) since rhino was turning armed men into paste by charging at them, and atlas one punch man'd an asteroid big enough to destroy earth

We do know that all the frames are at least somewhat superhuman, since they can handle large weaponry  (even without the arch-gun gravimag thing, thanks to the likes of the Shedo or Trumna) as well as tear apart large machinery and suplex mostly-metal people larger than themselves. Some are clearly more physically powerful than others, but all of them are impressively strong.

[JackHargreav]

Limbo was mentioned a lot but let's not forget Inaros, Nidus, Grendel and Wisp.

Grendel especially. He could eat everything if he used his feast to it's full potential.

Wisp can open a portal to the sun to make a death beam. So she's not weak at all.

Saryn would be a nightmare to fight. She would probably wreck an entire colony even in the 40k warhammer universe easily.

[TARINunit9]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

That is why subtext should not be used for discussions rooted in canon. It's always interpretive. And whilst alternative interpretations are great, they're the backbone of literary analysis and thematic discussion and all that awesome, fun stuff that I love about english literature... they're not what the author has written. They're, in effect, the space between the words where the audience fills it in. Great for meaning, themes and sparking inspiration, but when we're discussing what happened when in a fictional universe, or anything else that requires a firm anchoring in canon, we need to leave those interpretations at the door and bring only the facts to the table. And neither of our interpretations are facts.

So clearly our miscommunication is very different ideas about what constitutes "subtext" and what constitutes "fanon". Ever watch Paul Verhooven movies? His movies are filled with subtext, and they are very much NOT open to multiple interpretations. 

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

well, my interpretation would be that the Orokin are almost all awful people who'd rather have complete control over effectiveness

This is literally a contradiction. Trying to break his mind literally makes him less controlled and less effective; so if we assume that Umbra is the last and not the first, they are literally wasting their time making him less controlled AND less effective. But if Umbra is the FIRST Warframe, well it's literally a failed experiment. "Oh I guess abusing the bio-drones doesn't work, back to the drawing board"

[Loza03]

29 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

So clearly our miscommunication is very different ideas about what constitutes "subtext" and what constitutes "fanon". Ever watch Paul Verhooven movies? His movies are filled with subtext, and they are very much NOT open to multiple interpretations. 

Warframe is not directed by Paul Verhoeven, especially considering how you've already acknowledged there's parts open to multiple readings.

Most of the subtext you've pointed to is apocryphal at best.

34 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

This is literally a contradiction. Trying to break his mind literally makes him less controlled and less effective; so if we assume that Umbra is the last and not the first, they are literally wasting their time making him less controlled AND less effective. But if Umbra is the FIRST Warframe, well it's literally a failed experiment. "Oh I guess abusing the bio-drones doesn't work, back to the drawing board"

You're arguing a false dichotomy here, especially since I already pointed out that in no way do I think that Umbra is the last Warframe designed. It's also stated that Ballas is doing this to Umbra to silence him, and he allows Umbra to maintain one of his memories out of pettiness. And whilst that isn't mutually exclusive to when Umbra was designed or any cover up reasons why he was selected, it's also says nothing about when he was created, because Ballas's mistake could just as easily have been 'I meant to turn you into a controllable mannequin like all the other Warframes, just one still conscious, but I failed' as it is 'I meant to turn you into an independent will that can fight without Tenno influence as well as with'. Although, it is canonical that he does not predate the Tenno being the pilots of the Warframes, due to this line:

"Your transformation has begun, reshaping you into a sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno..."

Although the degree to which this line narrows down the time placement is insufficient to give any real indication of at what time he was made.

[TARINunit9]

18 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Although, it is canonical that he does not predate the Tenno being the pilots of the Warframes, due to this line:

"Your transformation has begun, reshaping you into a sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno..."

Maybe if you had lead with this we wouldn't have wasted two pages

I mean I personally flat-out believe that it's actually a script mistake, or maybe a hint that Ballas was one of those "can plan things three thousand years in advance" types, but it's literally the best evidence you have presented in two real-life days. WAY better than arguing with me about subtext

I'm not replying to the Umbra debate any further. I have my beliefs that you think are worthless fanon, you have your beliefs that I think are based in script errors and justified by ignoring subtext. To debate further is just going to make us angry. I hope you have a nice Wednesday! There's supposed to be a new Doom Eternal trailer out by now :)

Edited March 17, 2021 by TARINunit9

[Sovyul]

I'll go with Limbo as well. The limitations we see in-game only exist due to game balance.

Also, good necro, but you're also lame for not using your main account. Unlike in Cyrodiil, necromancy isn't banned here at the College of Warframehold.

[Loza03]

16 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

worthless fanon

 

16 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

To debate further is just going to make us angry.

If you want to avoid making somebody angry, maybe don't insult and misrepresent them.

[JimmuTanno88]

Most powerful frame lorewise.. hmmm. I'd have to say all of them. If any frame wanted to cause destruction on current Earth, they would likely succeed massively.

Although specific frames, it would depend what you mean by "powerful". If raw, instant physical destruction, then one of the previously mentioned frames like nova, or saryn, or rhino. But if the timeperiod is not specified/physical desctruction not the sole gauge of 'power', then I'd say Nyx. Mind control is a seriously strong super power in almost all scenarios. Turning people against eachother can also have great impact, depending on when and where it was used. Mind control could be used to infiltrate governments, sow political unrest, start wars,  etc. The use list is practically limitless. The ability to destroy an enemy from within can sometimes be just as useful(or more) than direct confrontation.