The Garuda Grind Is Predatory at Best

[Zanoza-chan]

В 10.11.2018 в 07:16, NeonXTheWolf сказал:

That totals to a MINIMUM 11 AND A HALF DAYS to build Garuda.

Have you actually thought Garuda is somehow an endgame item which is not supposed to be built in one day? If using your logic, the syndicate weapons should be available on 1st syndicate rank just because you can't wait \ don't want to grind for it. Obtaining Garuda has nothing with microtransactions at all.

Wanna the item instantly? Is it in the market? Buy it. Don't want to buy? Go actually play the game.

[imbressive]

simple question, why do you have to buy plat, there is also the ingame means of earning it. yes it doesnt change the fact that you need to reach the standing rank to get to the blueprint to craft her if you dont want to spend plat on her but grind her and the materials, but you have multiple ways of getting things in this game, easiest is ofc with you wallet.

 

did anyone expect anything else then standing daily limits? so many ppl complain about this things... do you want evrything done within a week?

 

edit: i dont like timegating too, but its not like it wasnt in the game in the same way before fortuna...

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by imbressive

[Infirito]

Here's the thing though, this "grind" is only a problem if you have nothing else to do, i.e. if you're at a very high MR and already got most of the stuff game has to offer, this is not what new content is balanced around in any online game that I've played. And for those complaining about Garuda being $20+ in plat or whatever - plat is free, I don't have any spare cash atm and haven't bought anything with money in Warframe and yet I've got Revenant on release (PoE bounties don't give me rare drops almost at all, no point in farming) and still have more than enough to buy Garuda and whatever else I might want. I'm not gonna buy her since I plan to play the game for a lot more than 11 days or however long it might take, so for me this isn't a problem at all. 

What is a problem however is a performance (Not skill, DE) based mining. Game runs very poorly for me after the mainline broke lighting, so I have no idea if I'll be able to get any gems with this new system.

[Veridian]

Is she the most gated though?
Even if we ignore the impossible way to acquire 25 nitain in 5 days, or some of the most RNG heavy frames (Ivara, Khora, Nidus), we can even put aside the frames that are locked behind the star chart, which will still probably need more time (Saryn, Chroma), there is still one frame, that no matter what you do, no matter how much RNG is on your side, it will still 100% take more time to farm - Mesa.

Items from syndicates require more time as well. What about items from G3, Zanuka..etc. Also it's not mandatory to buy the plat, you can earn it.

I've seen similar complaints about almost every character, I even remember someone complained about Nova.

Once upon a time gamers felt like there's this sweet icing when they finally reach the goal and something like Garuda is waiting, now if it's not granted off the gate its predatory... go figure.

I'm sorry, but WF's got a long way to go to reach the level of grind I've seen in other games.

[SqualZell]

2 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

I'm sorry, but WF's got a long way to go to reach the level of grind I've seen in other games.

I agree, in terms of actual grind, it's really not bad if you compare it to other games,

and the time gated grind? Try making the 2.0 and on legendaries in Guild Wars 2... it's like 2 months of time gating. 

[Stellatarum]

I wrote this to another thread, and I'm going to repeat myself, sory:

Quote

 

We lamented for Khora being locked behind a very strong RNG-based grind-wall. Remember? Twenty minues of boring Sanctuary Onslaught (not Elite, but normal, without real rewards but frame leveling) with two parts out of the four with a very low chance.

I think Garuda is much better now. They give you all the blueprints almost at the first run and you can check and see the requirements to build them and plan your work and progress. No RNG is involved in the process. The daily cap is easily reachable even at MR22 and within a few days you can have Garuda built and ready.

The only small RNG here is Medial Debt-bounds, because Ticker is a *****, but it's manageable.

 

 

[LuckyCharm]

Im just sitting here wondering how all these weird gems have anything at all to do with a gore themed frame. And why shes not half transparent like garas glass with how many gems you have to sink into her.  Id rather have built 8 fang daggers and combined them with mag. At least thatd make sort of sense with her looks and control

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

Is she the most gated though?
Even if we ignore the impossible way to acquire 25 nitain in 5 days, or some of the most RNG heavy frames (Ivara, Khora, Nidus), we can even put aside the frames that are locked behind the star chart, which will still probably need more time (Saryn, Chroma), there is still one frame, that no matter what you do, no matter how much RNG is on your side, it will still 100% take more time to farm - Mesa.

Well technically since you only need to be rank 6 to reach the end of the starchart you could get them in 7 days.

Nitain with its 4 per day drop gets you 25 in 6 days.

The problem here is this calculation of 11 days was based on not taking into account any kind of RNG and also with the assuption that everybody is mr22 who farms her.

[Mach25]

On 2018-11-10 at 6:54 PM, SqualZell said:

let's all just sit back, relax and consider that warframe has one of the best monetization models in the gaming industry. Lets see their philosophy and try to understand why Garuda, Equinox and other frames named in posts above require so much time to build, as well as to why 12-24-72 hour build time on everything.

"either time or cash" 

that's their philosophy.

- you don't want to spend money? fine, spend time. 

- you don't have time to spend? fine, spend some money.

(except for Tennogen) everything, and i mean EVERYTHING can be acquired with time/grind. not only that, they allow you to trade plat! so with a bit of grind, and I mean... a weekend's worth of relic grinding can get you enough plat to buy the frame (300ish plat) a second weekend can get you the bundle (500ish) and a 3rd weekend can get you the premium bundle (900ish plat).

Yep, the old standby, "Time is money, money is time." Youth have much time on their hands, therefore their lucre is exactly that, while adults have money but less time.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Mach25

[NeonXTheWolf]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well technically since you only need to be rank 6 to reach the end of the starchart you could get them in 7 days.

Nitain with its 4 per day drop gets you 25 in 6 days.

The problem here is this calculation of 11 days was based on not taking into account any kind of RNG and also with the assuption that everybody is mr22 who farms her.

That 11 day calculation was based on my MR for an example that showed how long it took, even at a high MR. If you read the first post on the first page, I mention this and how the problem is even worse the lower MR you are. I also say that this is not taking into account RNG as that base grind alone is dealing with syndicate standing, not anything RNG related. Again, I say this on the first post. 

I also already went over the numbers regarding the Nitain farm that is Vauban Prime, and other grindy frames, in a post on page 2.

Problem is most people who click on this thread now are just skipping the actual problem and argument, meaning they completely misunderstand or ignore the point being made, as shown by that one guy at the end of the second page who directly said he didn't read the thread, yet just assumed a completely different problem was being discussed. As for the others who have posted their thoughts:

-Stellatarum: Yes, at MR22, the daily cap isn't terrible, but still requires 8 straight days of Fortuna without being able to enjoy any of the other content. No conservation, no kit guns (which are god-tier bytheby), no moas. Problem is most people aren't even close to MR22, more players are likely to be about half that. Again, first page.

-Ver1dian: I completely agree with the "Mesa" Argument. She's a terrible grind, only difference is she's 100% RNG based with zero player control, rather than purposely time-gated far worse than need be without RNG. 

-Zanozoa: It'd be fine if DE actually labeled Garuda as "End-Game", but they haven't, and unless you have evidence, she isn't. Any player who's unlocked Venus has her blueprint dropped in their lap, as opposed to actual end-game content like Arbitrations, Sorties, Rivens, ect. I'd understand this argument if Garuda wasn't connected to Fortuna (which she shouldn't IMO, as "found under a shroom" is just a lazy shoe-in with no connection or lore to the frame whatsoever), but she is. Poorly, but she is.

TL:DR-At least read through the first post please. At this point, the thread is becoming a cesspool of "just buy the frame" without people actually trying to understand the problem.

[Veridian]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well technically since you only need to be rank 6 to reach the end of the starchart you could get them in 7 days.

Nitain with its 4 per day drop gets you 25 in 6 days.

The problem here is this calculation of 11 days was based on not taking into account any kind of RNG and also with the assuption that everybody is mr22 who farms her.

Well then please take into account the build times for the other frames as well.

Her rng is not that bad, got the gems in about 30-40 min and the bps took me an hour tops. 

At the end of the day RNG is way worse than time gating. 

Id argue the latter is better. At least there is some certainty.

 

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

Well then please take into account the build times for the other frames as well.

Her rng is not that bad, got the gems in about 30-40 min and the bps took me an hour tops. 

At the end of the day RNG is way worse than time gating. 

Id argue the latter is better. At least there is some certainty.

 

All you need to do is to check the first page, it was already explained there but just for you im gonna qoute it here:

On 2018-11-10 at 10:30 AM, NeonXTheWolf said:

To cover more possible arguments/counterpoints, the numbers now point to Garuda being the worst time-gated frame in the game. This is taking into account the in-theory/minimum/"perfect play" solid requirements, meaning non-rng, and why it matters.

Previously, Vauban Prime was the worst offender needing 20 Nitain in order to be constructed. While Nitain is a limited resource, it has 4 guaranteed alerts every 24 hours, meaning a player can theoretically get all 20 in 5 days, 3 less than Garuda, a non-prime frame marketed alongside Fortuna as an early area for newer players. Sure, not as heavily as The Plains, but the introductory message shown alongside your first Fortuna login still pushes this idea.

Ash is another grindy frame, but one that is based entirely in RNG, and thus not correlated to the problem. Even so, Manic units (the Grineer that drop Ash's blueprints) are guaranteed to spawn, in the worst case scenario, 1 every 12 minutes, in Defection missions. Manics have an about 33% chance to drop any Ash part blueprint, with the individual odds stacked against the Systems. With the odds in mind, it'll take a likely maximum of 117 Manic kills to get the blueprints. One kill every 12 minutes, making 1404 minutes total, or 23.4 hours. A heavily RNG-based frame takes about a day to get the pieces for. That's a whole 7 days less than Garuda.

The last comparison is Oberon (not including the prime, which may be easier than normal Oberon to get). Oberon's tricky as the numbers don't exist in as nearly a cut-and-dry form as the others. See, Oberon is a frame that anyone can get and use, guaranteed, as long as they just play the game. Oberon's blueprints drop from Eximus units, which can spawn in any mission, at any level. A lucky player might get every blueprint in an hour. Ultimately, it differs from Garuda as the player isn't forced to do any one thing at a scheduled rate and time. You're probably likely to get all of Oberon's blueprints during the 8-day grind for Garuda if you're playing that much. However, if you are more of the numbers type, please understand that there is no guaranteed time as no certian amount of eximus unts are guaranteed to spawn in a certain place, however some players have said they have about a 2% chance to spawn, going up to a 20% chance over time in endless missions. There's also Eximus Stronghold modifiers/sorties, which could easily be the easy run any player needs. However, it takes roughly 4,070 Eximus kills maximum to get all of Oberon's parts. 

TL:DR-Disregarding RNG, yes, Garuda is the worst time-gated warframe and possibly item in the game. The only thing that comes close is Oberon, but only because he is based almost entirely in RNG. However, any player can, in theory, get all the blueprints for Oberon at any given time or rate doing anything in the game, whereas Garuda locks the player to Fortuna day in & day out for reputation, while being marketed as a "Beginner's frame" like Gara due to new player accessibility to Fortuna: and if you don't believe that, any player who has gone past the Earth-Venus junction and do a low-level quest is given Garuda's blueprint-then thrown to the dust.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Infirito said:

What is a problem however is a performance (Not skill, DE) based mining. Game runs very poorly for me after the mainline broke lighting, so I have no idea if I'll be able to get any gems with this new system.

I found a workaround of sorts for the lighting issue at least for caves, when you see a node face it sideways aim with mining lazer and turn to the node you won't get the glare of warframe's flashlight, on snowy texture outside is still a bit problematic along with nodes spawning under texture sometimes

I won't comment on Garuda and it being time-gated, personally I have no beef with it I don't mind the grind nor the wait but neither PoE nor Fortuna are beginner zones or to better put it they shouldn't be presented as such.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Guest

[Infirito]

Just now, Thoogah said:

I found a workaround of sorts for the lighting issue at least for caves, when you see a node face it sideways aim with mining lazer and turn to the node you won't get the glare of warframe's flashlight, on snowy texture outside is still a bit problematic along with nodes spawning under texture sometimes

Thanks, but my problem is performance, i.e. the mining line doesn't stop the moment I release the button but with some delay, the same reason I ignore Sorties now if Grineer consoles are involved, anything with precise timing in a p2p online game is just a bad idea in general.

Also on the subject of time-gating, can you buy the highest tier gems from the daily offer of the gem-guy? I've only looked today so no idea if they were on offer, but if you can - that'll save you a lot of time for a small portion of plat, which is, again, easily obtainable in game.