The Garuda Grind Is Predatory at Best

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, SqualZell said:

"either time or cash"

Thats fine and all but ever since nidus (or maybe octavia) the rng and timegates started to increase what suggest two sceniarios:

DE either got more greedy or they started to earn less cash.

For the first i cant offer help but the second has strong connections with the content drought they created. The big and ambitious projects they make simply dont work fast enough to generate cash so they have to return to the numerous small events and additions.

If they really need to earn more cash make dojo only equipment buyable from the market, make nitain and argon buyable for plat, appeal to fashionframe and start making skins for our ugly weapons (hek, sobek?) and soo on.

Simply making the grind worse is not helpful for the game in the long run.

[HugintheCrow]

2 hours ago, SqualZell said:

let's all just sit back, relax and consider that warframe has one of the best monetization models in the gaming industry. Lets see their philosophy and try to understand why Garuda, Equinox and other frames named in posts above require so much time to build, as well as to why 12-24-72 hour build time on everything.

"either time or cash" 

that's their philosophy.

- you don't want to spend money? fine, spend time. 

- you don't have time to spend? fine, spend some money.

(except for Tennogen) everything, and i mean EVERYTHING can be acquired with time/grind. not only that, they allow you to trade plat! so with a bit of grind, and I mean... a weekend's worth of relic grinding can get you enough plat to buy the frame (300ish plat) a second weekend can get you the bundle (500ish) and a 3rd weekend can get you the premium bundle (900ish plat).

Now the game being FREE, I guess it's fair to have 1 weekend worth of relic grinding to get a frame that comes with a slot and a reactor in it already?

 

We are reaching shill levels previously thought to be impossible.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Uhh, Garuda doesn't work as a new player frame.

Is a new player going to have the mods to make Garuda work?  Try getting 200% static Strength as a newbie fresh off of Earth.  Not going to happen, it's like telling a newbie to build a Titania to reach the highest single target DPS.  At MR 1-4 they're still getting mods and trying to get endo to boost their survivability mods.

They're better off investing time on other frames or maximizing the starter frame that they already have.  Inaros (really hard quest) and Rhino (really easy) come to mind as better new-player frames.

[Lior55]

12 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Simply making the grind worse is not helpful for the game in the long run.

PSA I see. I hope they're actually receptive to this feedback. It would be a simple change to remove the Mining BP requirements and let the mining be all that we need to do.

[NeonXTheWolf]

52 minutes ago, WhimsicalPacifist said:

Uhh, Garuda doesn't work as a new player frame.

Is a new player going to have the mods to make Garuda work?  Try getting 200% static Strength as a newbie fresh off of Earth.  Not going to happen, it's like telling a newbie to build a Titania to reach the highest single target DPS.  At MR 1-4 they're still getting mods and trying to get endo to boost their survivability mods.

That's another topic for another post that already exists. I never said she WORKS as a new-player frame, only that it is obvious that she is MARKETED toward new players. Her blueprint is thrust upon any player who gets through the first junction and completes a simple but repetitive quest. She even has a Mastery Rank 0 requirement. 

[WhimsicalPacifist]

21 minutes ago, NeonXTheWolf said:

That's another topic for another post that already exists. I never said she WORKS as a new-player frame, only that it is obvious that she is MARKETED toward new players. Her blueprint is thrust upon any player who gets through the first junction and completes a simple but repetitive quest. She even has a Mastery Rank 0 requirement. 

Riiiight.  A new player at Mr 1 will make it through the Fortuna tutorial?  Lol at the thought of them getting through the mid tier bounties.  You aren't saying that Gara was marketed to new players?  Where do you draw the line?  With revenant?  With Limbo Theorem?
Also when and why can't DE advertise a new frame?  Should Garuda be buried in favor of the more lucrative Prime Acess?

[NeonXTheWolf]

13 minutes ago, WhimsicalPacifist said:

Riiiight.  A new player at Mr 1 will make it through the Fortuna tutorial?  Lol at the thought of them getting through the mid tier bounties.  You aren't saying that Gara was marketed to new players?  Where do you draw the line?  With revenant?  With Limbo Theorem?
Also when and why can't DE advertise a new frame?  Should Garuda be buried in favor of the more lucrative Prime Acess?

Look, now you're just arguing for argument's sake. This is far from the point of the thread. Neither did I say DE can't market Garuda as a new frame, just how it doesn't align with the method used to obtain her. As for your above examples, Revenant requires operator mode, which is far from something a new player would have. Limbo requires a minimum MR2 alongside two quest completions and the Earth-Mars junction. The base warframe equipment will get a player to at least MR3 (Starting frame, weapons, and Taxon). I personally count a new player as anyone at or below MR5, but that's just my opinion. Also, Gara is and was marketed to new players aswell, only much better, as she also has a MR requirement of 0, was accessible to any starting player as PoE is on Earth, and has material requirements that, at maximum, require Offworlder rank, being the only rank above neutral. 

I respect your opinion, but if you want keep arguing over what a new player is and all that, I suggest you look at the numbers and take it somewhere else. 

(Also, any player could easily complete the bounties. It's called public mode.)

[NaoEthelia]

They never said Garuda was a new-player frame though. Nor was there any marketing towards that direction.

Edited November 11, 2018 by NaoEthelia

[Ocerkin]

18 hours ago, moostar95 said:

I just got all of her parts in one day. some people are just looking into something to cry about. take your time and enjoy the update people. if anything, we need DE to crack down on this weird fps issue that's been happening since the release of fortuna. I run the game at max settings and fortuna tends to really slow down.

ill take people who have no idea what they are arguing against for 500, alex!

 

i got all her parts in about 3 hours, doesnt change the fact that in order to BUILD HER she is going to take me damn near two weeks no matter what i do because of caps on standing gain and things that feel more at home in a mobile game than a pc game

i love warframe but this is the first time this is really really bad, locking her behind rank 4 of fortuna's syndicate is a dirty deal

 

[SqualZell]

15 hours ago, NeonXTheWolf said:

So I'll ask you this: As soon as the update dropped, you bought Garuda. Probably from hype, and DE knows this. You haven't even gotten to rank 1 with Solaris. At your MR16 cap, you get 17,000 rep per day. Yadayadayada, it would have taken you at least 11 days to just get the required gems for Garuda. What would you have done if you couldn't have bought her?

Based on your profile, you probably would have never played her. That's the idea. Nobody is going to want to do one thing for that many days in a row, let alone be able to. So to get Garuda, they HAVE to spend money. It's F2P marketing at its worst.

1

"What would you have done if you couldn't have bought her?"

Then It wouldn't fit DE philosophy and the question would be, would I still be playing Warframe... but that's not DE's stance, Either Time or Money: I have more money than time.

 

So if things are ridiculously long to grind like Garuda or Equinox for example, I throw money, if things fit in my time frame I grind for it. THAT is why DE's business model works.

(also i'm not stupid, i don't go on dropping 20$ for a frame, I go for a minimum of 50% off voucher) so 10$ for a frame that will play for months to me is reasonable and it supports DE for a FREE GAME!!. 

Also based on my profile I can tell you that it's bugged, stats aren't being updated since beta, I have barely used Loki since i 30 ranked him. but for the record I bought Garuda because I love the playstyle, I love the mass murder vampire ripping things apart. I didn't grind or bought Revenant, Khora or Gara and i'm slowly grinding Harrow...

What you fail to consider in your arguments is that DE's business model philosophy fits my (and many other's) life style where we like to play and see new content but we don't have the time to acquire the new content, but we have money that we can part with and enjoy the new content (we still need to grind the frames and play to make it worthy)

so getting back at your question. hypothetically if I could not buy Garuda from the market, I would end up playing the content released this weekend in about 12-16 months. 

and if you make it easier to get without the time gates those who have more time than money would have maxed out the forma by the end of the weekend and thus no one would buy the new frames (this no money for DE) 

to me, it just sounds like you are complaining that you can't get your free game right now! 11 days.... let's say you do other things, make it 20 days... you are so impatient that you can't wait 20 days to get a free thing... 

[walter100]

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

"What would you have done if you couldn't have bought her?"

Then It wouldn't fit DE philosophy and the question would be, would I still be playing Warframe... but that's not DE's stance, Either Time or Money: I have more money than time.

 

So if things are ridiculously long to grind like Garuda or Equinox for example, I throw money, if things fit in my time frame I grind for it. THAT is why DE's business model works.

(also i'm not stupid, i don't go on dropping 20$ for a frame, I go for a minimum of 50% off voucher) so 10$ for a frame that will play for months to me is reasonable and it supports DE for a FREE GAME!!. 

Also based on my profile I can tell you that it's bugged, stats aren't being updated since beta, I have barely used Loki since i 30 ranked him. but for the record I bought Garuda because I love the playstyle, I love the mass murder vampire ripping things apart. I didn't grind or bought Revenant, Khora or Gara and i'm slowly grinding Harrow...

What you fail to consider in your arguments is that DE's business model philosophy fits my (and many other's) life style where we like to play and see new content but we don't have the time to acquire the new content, but we have money that we can part with and enjoy the new content (we still need to grind the frames and play to make it worthy)

so getting back at your question. hypothetically if I could not buy Garuda from the market, I would end up playing the content released this weekend in about 12-16 months. 

and if you make it easier to get without the time gates those who have more time than money would have maxed out the forma by the end of the weekend and thus no one would buy the new frames (this no money for DE) 

to me, it just sounds like you are complaining that you can't get your free game right now! 11 days.... let's say you do other things, make it 20 days... you are so impatient that you can't wait 20 days to get a free thing... 

Just raise the Grind and slow down the time, at the end of it at the same but still yes the player will not be forced to wait.

But according to his logic, where is the player who has neither Time nor money ??

[NeonXTheWolf]

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

"What would you have done if you couldn't have bought her?"

Either Time or Money: I have more money than time.

What you fail to consider in your arguments is that DE's business model philosophy fits my (and many other's) life style where we like to play and see new content but we don't have the time to acquire the new content, but we have money that we can part with and enjoy the new content (we still need to grind the frames and play to make it worthy)

so getting back at your question. hypothetically if I could not buy Garuda from the market, I would end up playing the content released this weekend in about 12-16 months. 

Actually, that's the center point of the argument. I didn't fail to consider it, it's literally to core aspect of predatory sales techniques. The grind is unrealistically long, pushing people like you and just normal people to buy the frame rather than grind for her.That's the entire point I've been making. Also, not everyone is just gonna magically get a discount from the daily drops, and if they do, It's more likely to be a 20%, which still sin't really worth it imo. 

Look, if you're okay with (theoretically since you already bought her) spending a year playing a game to get one thing, then I applaud your courage and patience. But that's just unrealistic to expect of people. What's realistic is looking at that grind, then looking at your wallet. Also, you brush over the idea that a good chunk of people aren't going to be in your position, where they have neither the money to blow on a free game or the time it takes to reasonably grind it out.

[peterc3]

20 minutes ago, NeonXTheWolf said:

Actually, that's the center point of the argument. I didn't fail to consider it, it's literally to core aspect of predatory sales techniques. The grind is unrealistically long, pushing people like you and just normal people to buy the frame rather than grind for her.That's the entire point I've been making. Also, not everyone is just gonna magically get a discount from the daily drops, and if they do, It's more likely to be a 20%, which still sin't really worth it imo. 

Look, if you're okay with (theoretically since you already bought her) spending a year playing a game to get one thing, then I applaud your courage and patience. But that's just unrealistic to expect of people. What's realistic is looking at that grind, then looking at your wallet. Also, you brush over the idea that a good chunk of people aren't going to be in your position, where they have neither the money to blow on a free game or the time it takes to reasonably grind it out.

Why should DE care about people who don't want to pay for their development costs or wait to get content that DE took months to make?

At the end of the day DE is a business, not your friend. If you are unwilling to even entertain paying money for something in game, you are irrelevant.

[walter100]

14 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Why should DE care about people who don't want to pay for their development costs or wait to get content that DE took months to make?

At the end of the day DE is a business, not your friend. If you are unwilling to even entertain paying money for something in game, you are irrelevant.

so why is the game for free according to your logic ?? The player who does not matter in their view, are currently posting the game on Steam simply by playing, these players are now releasing the game on Twitch, and they are the reason and the biggest source of return for Platinum to DE by selling items by Trade, makes the player who has money buy platinum to buy a riven for example, and this platinum will be used in the store to buy spaces, visual items or potatoes, the "Free" players do Platinum via Trade be consumed, and its high number increases the amount of items for sale and so it goes, so that without players who do not pay the Warframe Dies financially speaking

[peterc3]

24 minutes ago, walter100 said:

so why is the game for free according to your logic

To get people interested and then get them to pay money for conveniences or for cosmetics. Shift the player's usual upfront cost to, hopefully, more than usual over time.

26 minutes ago, walter100 said:

selling items by Trade

While Plat had to be bought from DE at some point, shifting it around for trade does absolutely nothing for them.

27 minutes ago, walter100 said:

without players who do not pay the Warframe Dies financially speaking

Ultimately those players are irrelevant if nobody pays for anything. That is the bottom line. Someone has to be buying things. Hopefully most people..

[SqualZell]

2 hours ago, walter100 said:

But according to his logic, where is the player who has neither Time nor money ??

1 hour ago, NeonXTheWolf said:

Also, you brush over the idea that a good chunk of people aren't going to be in your position, where they have neither the money to blow on a free game or the time it takes to reasonably grind it out.

people that have neither time nor money are not the target market for this game.

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

The grind is unrealistically long, pushing people like you and just normal people to buy the frame rather than grind for her

you can get all the parts in 1 weekend of normal play

you can get max standings in 2-3 weeks of normal play

you can max out the Garuda in Forma in 1 weekend of normal play.

1 month to max out all of the new content in fortuna expansion with NORMAL play is really reasonable time frame 

2 hours ago, NeonXTheWolf said:

Also, not everyone is just gonna magically get a discount from the daily drops, and if they do, It's more likely to be a 20%, which still sin't really worth it imo. 

i get a 50% once ever 3-4 weeks so... yes? we magically get it from the daily drops...

 

 

Basically Someone has to pay DE's bills and devs, and if they make frames easy to get/grind like you are asking no one would ever buy them in the store.

 

 

[walter100]

3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

To get people interested and then get them to pay money for conveniences or for cosmetics. Shift the player's usual upfront cost to, hopefully, more than usual over time.

While Plat had to be bought from DE at some point, shifting it around for trade does absolutely nothing for them.

Ultimately those players are irrelevant if nobody pays for anything. That is the bottom line. Someone has to be buying things. Hopefully most people..

The Free Player, he moves the Trade Market, Because he does not have Money to buy platinum, he exchanges valuable items, strong Rivens and Anasas for example ie the Market Moves

Free Player Spends this platinum on items in the PL market, that is, this platinum does not accumulate in the Trade market, which avoids the market to break by PL ingestion and accumulation. Without playing Free you would only have 20% of the market that you have today,

and another, the Free advertise the game Much more than the players paid, because they are the majority, if the DE only thinks of players who pay, it would not be very different from EA or activision, and if you know how much they spoil your games with this mentality

Edited November 11, 2018 by walter100

[RazorCure]

I was all excited to get and build Garuda. I got all her BPs in..2 days I think. Then I looked at the building reqs (which you cant check while AT Fortuna..which is really annoying), and saw, like people here are saying..I need Rank 4 SOlaris. And said F It.

I got few up with PoE bounties, and am still only at rank...3 I think. I hate the damn cache hunting ones (which at least Fortunba does DO better, with the cache that gives you the locations of others). Pretty sure Gara didnt need anything past rank 2 or 3, just standing spent on some gem stuff.

Same with the new Sentinal, which is described on the main Notes as being super good for Fortuna. Oh, well, to bad you NEED rank 5 for that. Now I can maybe, sorta understand gating Garuda somewhat..but a sentinal? That might have some powers really handy for the new zone? Making people get Max rank for that is stupid.

All up, there is what...5 Solaris ranks, assuming that gives all the gem bps for Garuda. Then the mining laser, 2 fish thigns, then NEEDING to spend more standing on bait (haven't done fishing there, so not sure if you can fish with no bait at all, like PoE), then at least 4 Moa's bits, and a bp. ALso 3 Kitgun bits, and a bp. Oh and 3 Kdrive bits..PLUS more VentStanding for the Mods, cause it doesnt come with any.

Grindtuna!

That is a serious amount of grinding, in a single zone, earning no resources you can actually use on other stuff, like Ocell. Oh wait, a few bounties give Neurodes and things. COupled with the bounties having about 6?7? different stages..this will just make everyone utterly hate the new zone. WHich is sad, cause its gorgeous.

As a suggestion:

How about having Venus/Earth missions also give Solaris/Ostron standing? It is the same baddies after all, and blowing up a base on earth, IS going to slow operations of the Grineer in Cetus.

Maybe even have them offer bounties in other areas of the planet, a few a day, like the 3 SYndicate missions we get. Or have Sigils for both groups you can equip, like Syndicate ones (you should totally be offered a boost at least at Rank 3 or 4).

Also, give both planets Fort/Poe specific salvage drops from Extractors.

 

[stormy505]

On 2018-11-10 at 3:14 AM, LupisV0lk said:

Hmmm now hear me out, maybe they're doing this so people don't breeze through everything then go and REEEEEEEEE "muh content drought" REEEEEEE.

Guess wait times where I go play other games count as "content" now. Litterly if you took out standing cap fortuna is a week's content at best 3 days at worst. And we waited a year for this.

[peterc3]

3 hours ago, stormy505 said:

Guess wait times where I go play other games count as "content" now. Litterly if you took out standing cap fortuna is a week's content at best 3 days at worst. And we waited a year for this.

Then feel free to buy it. They do not owe you their dev time for free. Time or money. Shockingly, game development takes a long time and the resulting product doesn't take anywhere near an equivalent amount of time to consume.

[Syasob]

100% agree with the OP.

I'm fine with grinding and toroids really look like hard enough challenge. I mean previous frames like Khora, Octavia, Nidus and Harrow required really long grind, but I always could farm a bit more to get that frames faster.

Do you remember PoE and Gara? In that case we only had to rank up once with Ostrons to get access to the blueprints we need to craft mats for Gara. And here come OV: we have to sink 141k reputation in the new syndicate just to rank it up high enough. That's 6 full days even with maximum mastery rank. That's really annoying to be ready to spend time right now, but the game is like 'Oh no, take a break. Come back tomorrow'.

I'm fine with best kitgun parts ad arcanes requiring the max rank of SU to get, but gating a frame behind 6 days of grinding reputation is something I'm not happy to see.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2018-11-10 at 4:30 AM, NeonXTheWolf said:

while being marketed as a "Beginner's frame" like Gara due to new player accessibility to Fortuna

That sounds like a recipe for scaring new player's know?

[Kobrakai]

I haven't read through the thread but I assume it's just people crying about the "grind". I'm glad there are things that I can work towards rather than having everything in the first week. I play other games that are much more grindy than this.

[Dabluechimp]

On 2018-11-10 at 6:14 AM, LupisV0lk said:

Hmmm now hear me out, maybe they're doing this so people don't breeze through everything then go and REEEEEEEEE "muh content drought" REEEEEEE.

Thats why Kit guns, and MOAs, and fishing, and hunting is gated behind the standing
But gating a warframe is only going to make people RUSH through the standing and ignore most of the other content

[Xaero]

On 2018-11-10 at 10:02 PM, skyline15 said:

I have become 1 Toroid for about 6 hours of farming that ressources.

If you can't farm the resource, you become the resource 😄