Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

[(PSN)Convict_Hammer]

Anyone remembers how Eudico said "Welcome to Venus, I'll kill ya" in the reveal at Tennocon? Exciting right?

I noticed that, since release (because of lore, I guess) she just says the line plain and flat now...

I think she knew they were going to tone down the enemies...

Listen, I've played every Dark Souls, Bloodborne and Nioh, and I'm sure I'm going to get some hate for bringing that up but I love the feel you get when dodging matters and having to tinker with your gear or strategize in order to beat something or improve.

My MR 8 account on PC struggled getting into Fortuna on day 1 and I loved it, but right now, and after the nerf I'm just afraid ranking up in my main PS4 account is just going to feel like a chore, with not much to really test yourself against.

[Methanoid]

a pity that new players is likely where the money is at, vets have probably already spent what they intend to spend a long time ago.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

lol....

 

if i need 200 bullets to kill an enemy because they are heavily armored and i do like 7 dmg per bullet because i dont use any mods, thats not what difficulty is.

Oh? So being able to instantly clear a tile of high level enemies is what you call "difficulty" is it? And we'll just pretend to not know that many enemies have weak spots, shall we? Because that's something that I seem to remember from before I was able to one shot most of the enemies I ran into. 

Now I'm going to wonder if there's any way to find oneself somewhere between totally unmodded and full forma meta builds. From what you wrote there, there must not be any other option that would allow you to find a balance. That makes me sad. 😔

4 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

But btw, i had hopes for ESO. But that stupid efficiency that gets so ridiculous ruins that gamemode.

It forces us to use lame mechanics and meta builds to be as quick as possible. If only this effiency-thing would be handled in a different way,

Or you know, just do the whole do what you can and see how far you can go, with any given set up and not worry about the rest? 

 

4 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

If i take the wrong build into ESO, the game kicks me out because of efficiency. 

Sounds to me like an excuse to not try and play better. "I can't cheese with this, so why bother to try". 

4 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Trying something that is impossible is not difficulty.

Yup. Same thing in different words. Know what is funny? Before we got to the moon a lot of people would have said that it was impossible. 

Tell me, is it even possible to take down the Teralyst without any of the meta combinations? Impossible, right? 

4 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

If they would allow me to take as much time as i need (instead of effiency, something like a simple kill counter: Kill 500 enemies and 10 eximus and a boss to proceed) i could either do what you suggest (removing mods) or play as long as i feel challenged (btw, this shouldnt take several hours, thats tedious and the only challenge there is to not fall asleep until you get somewhere challenging). But the design of the gamemode doesnt allow this.

Sounds like you're looking for a defense mission, try that instead and see how it goes. 

 

4 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Arbitrations, yes i actually like them, and i even like the things most people complain about (no revive, drones), and i do play them

Oh I don't know. Most of the complaints I've seen involved them not being challenging enough, or in the right way, or boring, or having been nerfed on release or stuff like that. 

I haven't really seen many complaints about the game mode, having the things that made the game mode unique in the first place. It's always possible I just didn't see them, but they're sort of strange complaints. 

[--PV--Arc]

On 2018-11-22 at 9:14 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The good stuff is already being given in harder missions. Try stripping your gear and comparing. 

I shouldn't need to strip myself of all that I've worked for just to feel a challenge. What other game forces you to strip yourself?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Arc2199 said:

I shouldn't need to strip myself of all that I've worked for just to feel a challenge. What other game forces you to strip yourself?

This game is Warframe. It's not any other game. If you want to play another game, then you are free to do so. 

There's literally a mission in warframe that strips you of your gear and abilities, and you have to try and reclaim them, bit by bit. There's your precedent for adding a little challenge, by stripping your OP meta gear which you think should never be required. Welcome to Warframe. 

Of course, it's no real surprise that "endgame" players are afraid hesitant to strip their own gear. It's because they may face the reality that the reason the game is too easy, isn't that they are good, but because their gear is good. 

 

 

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Of course, it's no real surprise that "endgame" players are afraid hesitant to strip their own gear. It's because they may face the reality that the reason the game is too easy, isn't that they are good, but because their gear is good. 

What are you even talking about? Everyone already knows this, so there's no fear of facing "the reality". This game is a looter. That means that loot is what matters, not skills. No amount of skills will carry an unmodded, rank 1 frame, rank 1 rifle, through sorties or arbitrations. Whereas perfect gear can carry a noob all the way to sorties just fine.

That's how looters work, most of the time. The point of the game is to get the perfect gear to make your perfect build. That's why we play it. That also means it is utterly pointless to ask people to unequip their perfect gear. That's pretty much asking them to not play the game, since the game is the loot, the gathering of loot and the testing and using of said loot.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

25 minutes ago, rune_me said:

What are you even talking about? Everyone already knows this, so there's no fear of facing "the reality". This game is a looter. That means that loot is what matters, not skills. No amount of skills will carry an unmodded, rank 1 frame, rank 1 rifle, through sorties or arbitrations. Whereas perfect gear can carry a noob all the way to sorties just fine.

That's how looters work, most of the time. The point of the game is to get the perfect gear to make your perfect build. That's why we play it. That also means it is utterly pointless to ask people to unequip their perfect gear. That's pretty much asking them to not play the game, since the game is the loot, the gathering of loot and the testing and using of said loot.

🤔

So then all the talk about skill can be discounted out of hand. And anyone claiming that they want a challenge or difficulty added, can be dismissed out of hand too. The only thing that matters is if we can get the loot and get out. 

So /thread.

Great talk. 👍

 

[rune_me]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So then all the talk about skill can be discounted out of hand.

Yes.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And anyone claiming that they want a challenge or difficulty added, can be dismissed out of hand too.

No. Challenge doesn't have to mean having your skills challenged. It can also mean having your gear and your build challenged. Since the point of Warframe is kind of to develop the perfect build, if it suddenly turns out that the build I thought was perfect is not up to the task, then I am being challenged to come up with a better build that can get the job done.

[Spectre-8]

39 minutes ago, rune_me said:

 Since the point of Warframe is kind of to develop the perfect build

Are you drunk m9 ? 🤣

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

Are you drunk m9 ? 🤣

Always. But at least I can still tell the difference between the number 8 and 9. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, Arc2199 said:

I shouldn't need to strip myself of all that I've worked for just to feel a challenge. What other game forces you to strip yourself?

Quite a number of games employ some measure of level syncing to ensure engaging gameplay.

FFXIV, GW2, and WoW all do so just off the top of my head.

FFXIV and GW2 syncs the player down.

WoW syncs the mobs up.

None of them force the player to strip themselves though as they just do it for them.

 

...I can only imagine what these forums would look like if DE implemented a system like this.

 

[rune_me]

3 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Quite a number of games employ some measure of level syncing to ensure engaging gameplay.

FFXIV, GW2, and WoW all do so just off the top of my head.

FFXIV and GW2 syncs the player down.

WoW syncs the mobs up.

None of them force the player to strip themselves though as they just do it for them.

 

...I can only imagine what these forums would look like if DE implemented a system like this.

 

They don't do it for you, though. You can still use all the gear and loot you have grinded for. That is something completely different. If you have spend days or even weeks grinding for a specific item, only to then not be able to use it because it's to good, would be extremely anti-climatic and would ruin the purpose of grinding in the first place.

Scaling enemies up to match your new power level is a different ball game, because you still get to use and test your gear on those enemies, and hence grinding still feels like an accomplishment. I would love scaling enemies in Warframe.

[Spectre-8]

50 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Always. But at least I can still tell the difference between the number 8 and 9. 

But you still can't tell what this game is all about 🤣 no excuses M9 🤣

Edited November 23, 2018 by Spectre-8

[rune_me]

Just now, Spectre-8 said:

But you still can't tell what this game is all about 🤣 no excuses

Yes. I already told you what it was about. Just read my previous post.

[Spectre-8]

2 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Yes. I already told you what it was about. Just read my previous post.

Yeah that's why it's so funny , you got it all wrong m9 .

[rune_me]

Just now, Spectre-8 said:

Yeah that's why it's so funny , you got it all wrong m9 .

Nah, I'm always right.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

40 minutes ago, unagy said:

Level syncing is one thing, and as a GW2 player I can vouch for how effective and rewarding it is. But what a lot of people here are demanding is a complete gear strip down to the undies - it's like if I dived into the raids with only white gear and no back item and at a lower level. And that's what doesn't make sense.

Nope. We're pointing out that taking overpowered gear is a matter of choice. There are a lot of possibilities between no mods, and the build you got from some youtuber in order to be able to cheese high level content. 

 

Of course, there seem to be a lot of self described "endgame" players who may not be able to get by without their favourite builds, from the way they are acting. One recently pointed out that they think that skill is not a factor affecting their success in the game. 

What does that say to you about the current state of the endgame community? 

[Rakosta_Kai]

58 minutes ago, rune_me said:

They don't do it for you, though. You can still use all the gear and loot you have grinded for. That is something completely different. If you have spend days or even weeks grinding for a specific item, only to then not be able to use it because it's to good, would be extremely anti-climatic and would ruin the purpose of grinding in the first place.

Scaling enemies up to match your new power level is a different ball game, because you still get to use and test your gear on those enemies, and hence grinding still feels like an accomplishment. I would love scaling enemies in Warframe.

Yes, but the fact remains that there are games where it is done...In fact FFXIV's is an opt-in level sync where they match you to the level of the content directly.

Scaling up is the most sensible course imo as well. That said, we can't sit here and say that games forcing level syncing doesn't happen...because it does.

Players kitted to fight level 150 enemies aren't going to see challenge against level 30 enemies and there should be viable options aside from requiring that the player strips their build to suit accordingly.

...I'm a bad one to talk personally as I do tend to slot whatever turns my gears that day as opposed to what I know works best. 

 

20 minutes ago, unagy said:

Level syncing is one thing, and as a GW2 player I can vouch for how effective and rewarding it is. But what a lot of people here are demanding is a complete gear strip down to the undies - it's like if I dived into the raids with only white gear and no back item and at a lower level. And that's what doesn't make sense.

The point that rune_me is trying to make is that gear is a fundamental part of the Warframe progression, and the suggestion of some people to take that element of gameplay away is not how solving the difficulty problem should work.

As a GW2 players, as well, I know what you mean.

I understand what rune_me is saying and am not attempting to cast aspersions or support for dissenting arguments.

That said, we know that options do exist in other games and that syncing functions exist here (spectres and stalker are examples) so the notion of syncing can move the discussion away from pedantic stripping.

The simple fact is that simple solutions or best practices tend to work best. We have seen Syncing work to good effect in other games so it's a concept that should be considered. 

I say this after having advocated for mission difficulty scaling options here for years only to watch it be shot down by other players here for just as long.

If a player wants challenge that have to either agree to face relevant opposition or relinquish a measure of their power.

[unagy]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Nope. We're pointing out that taking overpowered gear is a matter of choice. There are a lot of possibilities between no mods, and the build you got from some youtuber in order to be able to cheese high level content. 

 

Of course, there seem to be a lot of self described "endgame" players who may not be able to get by without their favourite builds, from the way they are acting. One recently pointed out that they think that skill is not a factor affecting their success in the game. 

What does that say to you about the current state of the endgame community? 

Taking any specific gear is a matter of choice. And I'm assuming you're using the general 'you', since I don't subscribe to any YouTuber or Twitch streamer or Warframe partner's sensationalist view on what is 'overpowered' - I don't care for the Atterax or Scoliac (I'm spitballing, I don't actually know what the so-called overpowered weapons are) or a sniper riven that'll set me back a few hundred dollars. I don't care for them at all.

Neither do I wish to generalise any terms. I don't believe there's a very discrete endgame. Aside from the MR grind, once we're done clearing nodes in our star chart, getting a feel for the Tridolon, being annoyed by Arbitration shield drones, and never receiving a Legendary Core from sorties, we're mostly done. Everything beyond that is self-inflicted and only chased by number-crunchers and/or those who feel that everyone else is garbage unless they can solo Mot for 7 hours or have 8000 hydrocaps. When a player starts their argument by claiming to be "someone who can solo some content with some gear for some amount of time", I just stop listening to them.

(Personally, I enjoy arbitrations because there are no second chances. AoE nukes and Void Mode revives are rather cheesy and once we do away with them, it plays much better to me.)

Nor do I believe there's any usefulness to producing a broad definition of what 'the Warframe community' consists of. There are going to be people with a proper head on their shoulders and a brain between their ears, and then there are also going to be most of the people on these forums. And on that note,

29 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

As a GW2 players, as well, I know what you mean.

I understand what rune_me is saying and am not attempting to cast aspersions or support for dissenting arguments.

That said, we know that options do exist in other games and that syncing functions exist here (spectres and stalker are examples) so the notion of syncing can move the discussion away from pedantic stripping.

The simple fact is that simple solutions or best practices tend to work best. We have seen Syncing work to good effect in other games so it's a concept that should be considered. 

I say this after having advocated for mission difficulty scaling options here for years only to watch it be shot down by other players here for just as long.

If a player wants challenge that have to either agree to face relevant opposition or relinquish a measure of their power.

don't let a good idea sink. That other people are whining about the possible consequences should not detract from an idea being viable. I would like to see level syncing in some form implemented because it would help players of various skill levels improve.

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by unagy

[unagy]

Perhaps to bring it way back to the original post's topic, I will add something that I've maintained for a long time, and that is people need to stop feeling obliged to certain content. Just because it exists, does not mean you deserve to have it presented to you on a silver platter (via farms, taxis, etc.), and just because Orb Vallis is on Venus, does not mean that it has to be scaled exclusively to the proficiency of new players who have just unlocked the planet. There are sufficient warning signs to tell people what sort of content is coming, so just because an enemy kills you does not mean it should be removed from the game.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

34 minutes ago, unagy said:

Perhaps to bring it way back to the original post's topic, I will add something that I've maintained for a long time, and that is people need to stop feeling obliged to certain content. Just because it exists, does not mean you deserve to have it presented to you on a silver platter (via farms, taxis, etc.), and just because Orb Vallis is on Venus, does not mean that it has to be scaled exclusively to the proficiency of new players who have just unlocked the planet. There are sufficient warning signs to tell people what sort of content is coming, so just because an enemy kills you does not mean it should be removed from the game.

Fair point.

But froma  business perspective do you think advertising Fortuna and having it be endgame only would bring in new players?

Do you think the new players would endure the full duration of Warframe just to play Fortuna?

Taking Eidolons as an example. A lot of new players left because they could never fight one. As fighting one required essentially clearing the star chart which is asking a lot when said content (PoE) is being pushed as the game changing update.

In Fortuna's case...it would have been a bait & switch.

"Hey come play Warframe & experience Fortuna"

Players get game & log in...

"You'll get to visit Fortuna after you've done all this: (Entire damn game gets listed.)"

Imagine the gaming news articles, YouTube vids, blogs, podcasts, & etc.

Heh, it'd be Wildstar's PVP update all over again.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

51 minutes ago, unagy said:

And I'm assuming you're using the general 'you', since I don't subscribe to any YouTuber or Twitch streamer or Warframe partner's sensationalist view on what is 'overpowered'

Of course I am, just as anyone who claims to be asking for endgame is talking in general terms, because they can never actually show that there's any consensus of what that is, in the first place. 

[seprent]

How is this thread still floating or is it like half sunk from all the pot shot holes in it?

[CoolDudeMcCool]

4 hours ago, unagy said:

just because Orb Vallis is on Venus, does not mean that it has to be scaled exclusively to the proficiency of new players who have just unlocked the planet

The opposite is much worse - having the entire thing scaled to 'endgame' players who fight level 300 enemies for fun, or whatever people do when the game can't reasonably challenge them. They're both wrong, of course. It's obvious even DE wants to meet in the middle - things like the alert level shows that, it's not just for newbs or vets, and anyone asking to cater to one or the other exclusively is out of their mind.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

4 hours ago, seprent said:

How is this thread still floating or is it like half sunk from all the pot shot holes in it?

It's been a dry week. 

Besides, with the copious amount of baiting some people just can't help themselves