Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Arc2199 said:

That literally just ends up making all bounties a slog since no strong enemies ever spawn when you're jumping from one location to the other.

That is because the bounties are supposed to be a mindless rep/material grind.

If they want actually challenging content they'd need to give us proper interesting rewards to go with it too. The drops from bounties dont really fit that criteria at all. Too bad the itemization in this game doesnt go with the regular arpg setup, if it did the alert levels could easily be used to increase drops aswell as introducing rares/legendaries or whatever they'd wanna call it. But all we have are mods, mods and then some mods.

Maybe DE should start making actual rare drop items, like pre-built weapons that can drop that are unsellable/untradable and require no extra weapon slot. Potato would obviously have to be provided on your own after you obtain it.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

I see a lot of people acting very scared and talking against suggestions they've probably never experienced themselves. I have my own views of course, but i don't have the patience or time to debate, but i can say with confidence that what is transpiring within the game currently ain't working, as more and more people are getting unhappy and vocal about it. Obviously something needs to be changed. It's better to accept it and work a mutually beneficial solution than to force a road not meant to be taken.

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[JoniBach]

but....

 

Nightmare modes???

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I see a lot of people acting very scared and talking against suggestions they've probably never experienced themselves. I have my own views of course, but i don't have the patience or time to debate, but i can say with confidence that what is transpiring within the game currently ain't working, as more and more people are getting unhappy and vocal about it. Obviously something needs to be changed. It's better to accept it and work a mutually beneficial solution than to force a road not meant to be taken.

 

Are you sure that isn't confirmation bias? Because it looks like there are generally more players now than a couple of years ago. 

Just having x% more voices grumbling doesn't automatically mean that there's a greater proportion complaining. (Not to mention having seen several people post saying that they stopped playing so long ago and don't play anymore. Which was a total "wat" moment for me the first few times.) 

[Artiamus]

Was doing a sortie the other day and we had the grineer hijack mission to escort the core along the rail. Was the second mission of the sortie. Afterwards the squad was saying that despite having done that mission so many times, it was actually fun that time since the enemies were actually dropping us every so often, requiring a revive that sometimes would turn into more then one person needing one. There were even several times where the payload actually moved backwards due to everyone needing to scramble and move away from it for some reason. Too many times the hijacks in general are just "stand on the payload, shoot things that get to close, ignore everything else" and end up being times were the squad is just sitting there making jokes (or just in silence) while someone with a rifle cracks away every so often at something.

But it was the challenge in this one, where we actually were in danger of failing that made it fun. 

[DreisterDino]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Artiamus:

Was doing a sortie the other day and we had the grineer hijack mission to escort the core along the rail. Was the second mission of the sortie. Afterwards the squad was saying that despite having done that mission so many times, it was actually fun that time since the enemies were actually dropping us every so often, requiring a revive that sometimes would turn into more then one person needing one. There were even several times where the payload actually moved backwards due to everyone needing to scramble and move away from it for some reason. Too many times the hijacks in general are just "stand on the payload, shoot things that get to close, ignore everything else" and end up being times were the squad is just sitting there making jokes (or just in silence) while someone with a rifle cracks away every so often at something.

But it was the challenge in this one, where we actually were in danger of failing that made it fun. 

Must have been a bug!

[Artiamus]

3 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Must have been a bug!

If so, I want to know how to repeat it!

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

9 hours ago, Artiamus said:

If so, I want to know how to repeat it!

Easiest way to cause that particular one:

Form squad.

Then have each member of the squad remove the mods from their equipped frames and weapons. 

Then start hijack mission. 

 

 

Sometimes it seems to work if only a few mods are removed. Sometimes it works if all are removed. You may wish to record the particular combinations your team wet with and the effects. 

[(PSN)Zero_029]

9 hours ago, Artiamus said:

Was doing a sortie the other day and we had the grineer hijack mission to escort the core along the rail. Was the second mission of the sortie. Afterwards the squad was saying that despite having done that mission so many times, it was actually fun that time since the enemies were actually dropping us every so often, requiring a revive that sometimes would turn into more then one person needing one. There were even several times where the payload actually moved backwards due to everyone needing to scramble and move away from it for some reason. Too many times the hijacks in general are just "stand on the payload, shoot things that get to close, ignore everything else" and end up being times were the squad is just sitting there making jokes (or just in silence) while someone with a rifle cracks away every so often at something.

But it was the challenge in this one, where we actually were in danger of failing that made it fun. 

Imagine how fun that would have been if the enemies were better equipped.

I need to clean up my post & submit it in feedback.

I'd love to see the challenge from enemies who stand on (somewhat) equal ground to players (atleast in terms of armaments) with abilities that hinder/prevent cheesing.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Imagine how fun that would have been if the enemies were better equipped.

I need to clean up my post & submit it in feedback.

I'd love to see the challenge from enemies who stand on (somewhat) equal ground to players (atleast in terms of armaments) with abilities that hinder/prevent cheesing.

 

5 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Easiest way to cause that particular one:

Form squad.

Then have each member of the squad remove the mods from their equipped frames and weapons. 

Then start hijack mission. 

☝️ Should work for that too. 

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

16 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

☝️

👏👏👏

Preach it, you beautiful, savage, clockwork automaton. 

 

Unfortunately now there'll be a wailing and gnashing of teeth and a rush to defend the overpowered meta rigs that people take to trivialise the game. 

"I worked hard to get this cannon" they'll scream, "why shouldn't I be allowed to use it to kill mosquitoes?" 

And when they think that you're no longer around, or forget that they're not really all that they hype themselves to be, they will start a new complaint "this game is soooooo boring! Why can't they get it right? GIVE US ENDGAME NOW!" 

Hahaha thanks bud. Basically spend my time, trying to disprove this 'we need challenge, cuz we is so good' notion. Considering there is no skill involved in the game play, only in build making.

Most annoying is these people claim to speak for Vets, when in fact most Vets I know love the way the game is and understand the difficulty comes from understanding builds and damage type.

Hope this 'challenge' patter ends soon. Bringing in new players is priority, as it allows this beautiful game to keep being successful and prosperous. 

P.s I note that none of these 'Skilled' players haven't got much to say to my no mods remark.

Edited November 22, 2018 by (XB1)Clockwork Geoff
Mistake

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I see a lot of people acting very scared and talking against suggestions they've probably never experienced themselves. I have my own views of course, but i don't have the patience or time to debate, but i can say with confidence that what is transpiring within the game currently ain't working, as more and more people are getting unhappy and vocal about it. Obviously something needs to be changed. It's better to accept it and work a mutually beneficial solution than to force a road not meant to be taken.

 

This is fairly put but i respectfully disagree.

'More and more people' becoming unhappy...Is only in this forum, where a small group of the player base make the same threads over and over, making it seem like a real issue.

These represent a fraction of the player base - majority of people will be perfectly happy with the game and won't even know about this storm in a teacup that's happening on the forums.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

When someone asks for a new challenge, like enemies with new abilities and tactics, that's something that taking off mods can't solve.

But when someone wants the already existing enemies to be stronger, the same effect can be reached by taking off mods. Taking off mods is only bad because of your investment. But you can put them on when you want to completely destroy any enemy, and take them off when you don't. No investment wasted.

Self-nerfing isn't the only answer out there, but it's certainly the answer to some people here.

[ReshyShira]

On 2018-11-13 at 11:20 PM, Boondokz said:

Don't get me wrong I understand that DE wants new players to be able to experience everything and not get discouraged, but will it ever stop coming at the expense of the fun for veterans? With the release of Fortuna I thought I had finally found my new love in the form of base raiding. Enemies hit luck trucks and ramped up to high levels extremely fast. It became intense and therefor fun. How many toroids could you farm up before your team became overwhelmed and then have to sprint to the exit, mount up, and dash away. This was an amazing prospect. Instead DE nerfs the damage that the enemies do, lower the ramp speed (may be observer bias there), and decrease spawn rates. No longer is it an intense battle where you have to play smart if you want your rewards. Instead it has become yet another boring farm session. If you want the intense gameplay you have to wait an extremely long time.

 

So some might argue that Arbitration already fills this roll. To that I would have to disagree. It is the same old experience we have always had except slower as rewards take twice as long. Bring the same old set up you always would and then just wait 40 wave, 40 minutes, ext. and you will get a slight boost in challenge. It may be because the new enemies added out on Orb Vallis just havent been 100% figured out yet that supplied some of the uniqueness, but nerfing them so they are simple as any old enemy seems like veterans are being neglected. I was so happy that there was some "end game content" now it is a walk in the park, where the only reason to leave is something glitches and you are afraid of the WF Crash.

 

I hope when the spider tanks are released the challenge is restored to some extent, and it IS NOT just another operator gimmick. I still love Warframe, only I wish that everything wasn't tuned to be super casual. I expect to get some hate for this post in all honesty, but understand this is partially a knee jerk response to how much I loved base raiding compared to now.

It's funny, because DE caters to new players, but hasn't updated the tutorial at all since forever.

[--PV--Arc]

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is because the bounties are supposed to be a mindless rep/material grind.

If they want actually challenging content they'd need to give us proper interesting rewards to go with it too. The drops from bounties dont really fit that criteria at all. Too bad the itemization in this game doesnt go with the regular arpg setup, if it did the alert levels could easily be used to increase drops aswell as introducing rares/legendaries or whatever they'd wanna call it. But all we have are mods, mods and then some mods.

Maybe DE should start making actual rare drop items, like pre-built weapons that can drop that are unsellable/untradable and require no extra weapon slot. Potato would obviously have to be provided on your own after you obtain it.

"That is because the bounties are supposed to be a mindless rep/material grind."

WHY?

On what arbitrary basis can you make that claim?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 hours ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

When someone asks for a new challenge, like enemies with new abilities and tactics, that's something that taking off mods can't solve.

Oh but they do put out new stuff, from what I've seen. Arbitrations come to mind. Or did those drones exist before that? 

That was released not particularly long ago. And yet almost immediately there were people on the forums complaining that the levels of the enemies were nerfed on release, and what's the point because they are still soo easy etc etc etc... 

Now if the subset that you're talking about existed independently of the "it's too easy" group, then they're probably silent because they're satisfied with the new challenge, due to new enemies with new abilities, that has made them alter their tactics, and they're too busy playing the game to give a hoot about the rest of people on the forums talking all that crazy talk. 

But what we're seeing here seems to be, just the same old "we can't actually decide what 'endgame' is so those guys are asking for one thing and we're asking for another totally different thing, but what we want is definitely 'endgame'".       

Now you are absolutely right, self-help is not the only option. But it is the only option that everyone has immediate access to right now. It is the only option that you have absolute control over. It is the only option that doesn't require reallocation of limited resources, to create content catering to a minority of the minority of players who fully intend to use their highly overpowered kit to trivialise it and go back to complaining a couple of weeks later. 

 

Remember when the Stalker first showed up for you? Or the death squads and you had to actually mark your location so your team mates would be able to assist? How you had to change tactics to deal with them instead of just blowing them away? Yeah the difference was your equipment. 

Maybe it's time to see the enemies in a new, old light. 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Arc2199 said:

WHY?

On what arbitrary basis can you make that claim?

Because that's how kill&loot games work?

When you take overpowered gear, repeat the missions so many times that you are operating on twitch reflexes and muscle memory alone, what you have done is turned the content into a mindless rep/material grind. 

 

Welcome to the world of video games. 

[FlusteredFerret]

On 2018-11-20 at 11:35 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

But enemies ARE unique. It's just that they are so muted that players don't realize that many of them do indeed have mechanics that can make them difficult that don't rely on scaling.

But the simple truth is, players PREFER bullet sponges over mechanics

To wit - note the amount of complaining about knockdown capabilities of Corpus enemies in Orb Vallis.

Does make me laugh, reading the number of posts about how there is so little "challenge" in the game...yet whenever any enemy has a strong / annoying ability, the cry immediately goes up of, "XXXXX IS OP...NERF PLS!" or "OMG XXXXX ABILITY IS STUPID - GET RID NAO!"

 

 

[ReshyShira]

8 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

To wit - note the amount of complaining about knockdown capabilities of Corpus enemies in Orb Vallis.

Does make me laugh, reading the number of posts about how there is so little "challenge" in the game...yet whenever any enemy has a strong / annoying ability, the cry immediately goes up of, "XXXXX IS OP...NERF PLS!" or "OMG XXXXX ABILITY IS STUPID - GET RID NAO!"

 

 

I think what people want most is fun, not challenge.  Fun can require some amount of challenge, but probably not to the degree of one mistake gets you killed kind.

[SneakyErvin]

46 minutes ago, Arc2199 said:

"That is because the bounties are supposed to be a mindless rep/material grind."

WHY?

On what arbitrary basis can you make that claim?

I explained that. The rewards are lackluster for something that would actually bring a challenge or have you involve yourself slightly in what is happening. That goes for pretty much the whole game, the rewards are simply too bad for them to justify some form of challening content. It is an arpg, reward vs time is the core of the game once you've gone through it the first time. No even ESO or Arbitrations have rewards comparable to the "effort" you put in.

The only reason why alert levels become interesting is due to the mechanics of the mobs, the density of those mobs and the possible rewards from those mobs i.e toroids. If those mobs didnt drop toroids there would be no reason fighting them at higher alert levels in order for more spawns to happen.

WF could use a complete drop overhaul where rare items etc. are actually placed behind tougher mobs and not some random trash #211. They should have done this long ago with mods such as Condition Overload, the corrupted mods and so on.

Increasing the challenge or difficulty will simply have no meaning if there isnt loot to support it. There is a reason why I barely run arbitrations because there is nothing in the way of loot that interests me. I'm not gonna do it for just the sake of the "challenge", I have other things to do in WF that are more fun even if they arent challenging.

edit: The game needs a proper path of progression, right now though some of the best mods come from mid level trash content while newer and more challenging parts give rewards that wouldnt even be fun to get during the first hours on earth.

Edited November 22, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[rune_me]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

WF could use a complete drop overhaul where rare items etc. are actually placed behind tougher mobs and not some random trash #211. They should have done this long ago with mods such as Condition Overload, the corrupted mods and so on.

I personally disagree with this. I already have everything I need in the game (except for what came with Fortuna, because I haven't bothered playing it yet and probably won't anytime soon). I don't care about rewards anymore, I can easily do anything the game throws at me and one more mod or OP weapon won't change anything. I just want a challenge, not rewards.

[--PV--Arc]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 

Because that's how kill&loot games work?

When you take overpowered gear, repeat the missions so many times that you are operating on twitch reflexes and muscle memory alone, what you have done is turned the content into a mindless rep/material grind. 

 

Welcome to the world of video games.  

Here's a hard to swallow pill :

 

Not every game with loot is Diablo.

[--PV--Arc]

18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I explained that. The rewards are lackluster for something that would actually bring a challenge or have you involve yourself slightly in what is happening. That goes for pretty much the whole game, the rewards are simply too bad for them to justify some form of challening content. It is an arpg, reward vs time is the core of the game once you've gone through it the first time. No even ESO or Arbitrations have rewards comparable to the "effort" you put in.

The only reason why alert levels become interesting is due to the mechanics of the mobs, the density of those mobs and the possible rewards from those mobs i.e toroids. If those mobs didnt drop toroids there would be no reason fighting them at higher alert levels in order for more spawns to happen.

WF could use a complete drop overhaul where rare items etc. are actually placed behind tougher mobs and not some random trash #211. They should have done this long ago with mods such as Condition Overload, the corrupted mods and so on.

Increasing the challenge or difficulty will simply have no meaning if there isnt loot to support it. There is a reason why I barely run arbitrations because there is nothing in the way of loot that interests me. I'm not gonna do it for just the sake of the "challenge", I have other things to do in WF that are more fun even if they arent challenging.

edit: The game needs a proper path of progression, right now though some of the best mods come from mid level trash content while newer and more challenging parts give rewards that wouldnt even be fun to get during the first hours on earth. 

So don't you make a thread asking for better rewards then? Instead of arguing against increasing difficulty.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Arc2199

[FlusteredFerret]

19 minutes ago, rune_me said:

I personally disagree with this. I already have everything I need in the game (except for what came with Fortuna, because I haven't bothered playing it yet and probably won't anytime soon). I don't care about rewards anymore, I can easily do anything the game throws at me and one more mod or OP weapon won't change anything. I just want a challenge, not rewards.

You never know. Maybe one day DE will make a challenging game mode that vets actually like? Seems like they've had quite a few attempts already that haven't panned out for one reason or another...

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

22 minutes ago, Arc2199 said:

Here's a hard to swallow pill :

 

Not every game with loot is Diablo.

Doesn't bother me mate, I never really played it. 

And this particular game is Warframe. Welcome. Take some time to acquaint yourself with it. There's a lot of people who mindlessly grind materials/rep. They are the primary source of their own problem. 

You want a hard pill to swallow? Here's one: You are your own worst enemy in Warframe. 

[--PV--Arc]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Doesn't bother me mate, I never really played it. 

And this particular game is Warframe. Welcome. Take some time to acquaint yourself with it. There's a lot of people who mindlessly grind materials/rep. They are the primary source of their own problem. 

You want a hard pill to swallow? Here's one: You are your own worst enemy in Warframe.  

Hah. I've met plenty more since I joined this post.

Also so what if people grind mindlessly? Shouldn't harder missions exist that give good stuff as well?