Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

[DreisterDino]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Clockwork Geoff:

P.s I note that none of these 'Skilled' players haven't got much to say to my no mods remark.

Writing something in bold letters doesnt make it more true 😉

There have been plenty of answers to that (and i am not gonna repeat since i have said that myself atleast 5 times already with different examples).

You might not agree with what we had to say to that, but that doesnt mean we didnt have anything to say.

 

Zitat

Considering there is no skill involved in the game play, only in build making. 

And that is a good thing? i think no.

Most games that have been popular in the past and present and have been played the most by gamers are skill based.

Just because in Warframe the only thing that matters today is how well you modded your Frame to press 4 the most effective way

or how good you are at meleeslidattackspam (or macro-writing^^) this doesnt mean it always has to be that way.

And just to make it clear, i dont want to change anything of the already existing stuff in Warframe, only a small addition or choice to play something harder.

So all new players and all old players that are happy with what they got can continue doing whatever they do in Warframe.

 

And because you mentioned new players once again as a counterargument against anything that would involve some sort of skill:

- Warframe is 4 years old and has so much content now that a new player can be entertained for hundreds and hundreds of hours. It wouldnt hurt them or the game if there is something somewhere in the game that he cant access immediatly. So explain how it would stop new players from joining and staying in the game when there is some sort of challenge somewhere in the game (concrete example: thre option to chose another difficulty for bounties).

- Players might get bored, in fact many people do. So anything that might get implemented that challenges them again and makes them play can only be healthy for the game.

Edited November 22, 2018 by DreisterDino

[DreisterDino]

-double post-

Edited November 22, 2018 by DreisterDino

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

Writing something in bold letters doesnt make it more true 😉

There have been plenty of answers to that (and i am not gonna repeat since i have said myself that atleast 5 times already with different examples).

You might not agree with what we had to say to that, but that doesnt mean we didnt have anything to say.

 

Apologies, I haven't actually seen any answers to it?

I'd appreciate it if you can explain to me, how your skill alone (a no mod build) can beat a 1hr mot survival? Maybe I am missing some core mechanic to the game.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 minutes ago, Arc2199 said:

Hah. I've met plenty more since I joined this post.

Also so what if people grind mindlessly? Shouldn't harder missions exist that give good stuff as well?

The good stuff is already being given in harder missions. Try stripping your gear and comparing. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

15 minutes ago, Arc2199 said:

 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by (PS4)guzmantt1977
Sorry Internet went on the fritz and my phone decided to spaz.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

14 minutes ago, Arc2199 said:

 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by (PS4)guzmantt1977
Dunno what happened there.

[Eisdschungel]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Clockwork Geoff:

Maybe I am missing some core mechanic to the game.

Yep. The fact that the whole "goal" of the game is to get as powercreppy as possible. Sure, going unmodded is hard but also in the Face of the Rest of the gamd

[DreisterDino]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Clockwork Geoff:

Apologies, I haven't actually seen any answers to it?

I'd appreciate it if you can explain to me, how your skill alone (a no mod build) can beat a 1hr mot survival? Maybe I am missing some core mechanic to the game.

 

What kind of stupid answer is that?

Ofc i am not gonna kill anything of higher lvl if i dont equip basic mods.

 

Instead of trying to understand where i am coming from and to find out if there actually is something that could be infact good for the game all you do is trying to make me and others look stupid and arrogant. That sure is really healthy for the game.

Edited November 22, 2018 by DreisterDino

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

3 minutes ago, Eisdschungel said:

Yep. The fact that the whole "goal" of the game is to get as powercreppy as possible. Sure, going unmodded is hard but also in the Face of the Rest of the gamd

This pretty much is my point - your 'power creep' is how you beat the game. Not through your sick gameplay.

[SneakyErvin]

51 minutes ago, rune_me said:

I personally disagree with this. I already have everything I need in the game (except for what came with Fortuna, because I haven't bothered playing it yet and probably won't anytime soon). I don't care about rewards anymore, I can easily do anything the game throws at me and one more mod or OP weapon won't change anything. I just want a challenge, not rewards.

 

46 minutes ago, Arc2199 said:

So don't you make a thread asking for better rewards then? Instead of arguing against increasing difficulty.

The two things must go hand in hand. Chances are a very small portion are after just a challenge, the majority is likely looking for both. It should be a thing DE will consider going forward, adding worthwhile content that is both rewarding and challenging.

Just adding challenging content will solve nothing because that isnt what people are looking for as the only thing in these types of games. WF already has a very odd progression system. The game could simply use an elite star map where everything starts at level 100 and has rewards balanced around that aswell a new ones introduced. It is hard for WF to get a balanced reward system though since most drops that are part of the progression are mods.

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

Just now, DreisterDino said:

What kind of stupid answer is that?

Ofc i am not gonna kill anything of higher lvl if i dont equip basic mods.

Instead of trying to understand where i am coming from and to find out if there actually is something that could be infact good for the game all you do is trying to make me and others look stupid and arrogant. That sure is really healthy for the game.

Exactly - you need mods to win, which is why this isn't a skill based game.

I apologise - please tell me where you are coming from. Now that we have established mods are responsible for success or failure in WF, how does it relate to what improvements you want?

[DreisterDino]

Gerade eben schrieb (XB1)Clockwork Geoff:

Exactly - you need mods to win, which is why this isn't a skill based game.

I apologise - please tell me where you are coming from. Now that we have established mods are responsible for success or failure in WF, how does it relate to what improvements you want?

Maybe Mods + Skill?

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

Just now, DreisterDino said:

Maybe Mods + Skill?

I agree - but this would mean a revamp of core game mechanics in WF. Currently its about bloating numbers = more difficulty.

[zetheros1]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

I agree - but this would mean a revamp of core game mechanics in WF. Currently its about bloating numbers = more difficulty.

We all know it sucks to lose an argument, but using logical fallacies to defend oneself is disappointing.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

9 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Writing something in bold letters doesnt make it more true 😉

There have been plenty of answers to that (and i am not gonna repeat since i have said that myself atleast 5 times already with different examples).

You might not agree with what we had to say to that, but that doesnt mean we didnt have anything to say.

Ahhhh but you missed something, writing something repeatedly also doesn't inherently make it more valid or the counter argument less so. 😉

13 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

And that is a good thing? i think no.

That's why stripping the builds is a pretty valid way to rebalance personal skill to game content. 

 

16 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

And just to make it clear, i dont want to change anything of the already existing stuff in Warframe, only a small addition or choice to play something harder.

Ahh you mean like ESO or Arbitrations? Wait.. They added both fairly recently.... But you're still asking for... Uh. Yeah something isn't adding up in what you are saying. 

Let's try something else, if you accidentally take the wrong build to either of those, does that affect your perception of the difficulty/challenge? If yes, then your problem is at least partially self-created. 

21 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

And because you mentioned new players once again as a counterargument against anything that would involve some sort of skill:

The title of this thread makes it clear that new players are a fundamental to the discussion at hand. Why wouldn't you expect them to be mentioned fairly regularly and a central point in the discussion? 

[Eisdschungel]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Clockwork Geoff:

I agree - but this would mean a revamp of core game mechanics in WF. Currently its about bloating numbers = more difficulty.

Which also happens to be the dtart of this difficult discussion (or rather ist newest reincarnation) the Change of these numbers. For starters, giving a faster scaling in certain missions/instances would be good. A higher Tier Bounty, a Corpus Base where all Players have to press a Console to Start an Assault or a new gamemode could all contain that

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

13 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

What kind of stupid answer is that?

Ofc i am not gonna kill anything of higher lvl if i dont equip basic mods.

 

9 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

 Maybe Mods + Skill?

The top quote indicates that you don't believe that you have sufficient skill to replace the mods you use to trivialise the highest levels content. That suggests that the power to make the game harder is already within your control, and you simply choose not to make that change. 

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

15 minutes ago, zetheros1 said:

We all know it sucks to lose an argument, but using logical fallacies to defend oneself is disappointing.

Which one is it that I've committed? Straw man?

 

Either way - valuable contribution bro

[rune_me]

18 minutes ago, zetheros1 said:

We all know it sucks to lose an argument, but using logical fallacies to defend oneself is disappointing.

The only thing worse than someone using logical fallacies to defend themselves, is someone calling out logical fallacies to defend themselves.

[rune_me]

28 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The two things must go hand in hand. Chances are a very small portion are after just a challenge, the majority is likely looking for both. It should be a thing DE will consider going forward, adding worthwhile content that is both rewarding and challenging.

Yeah I agree, it was just my personal opinion. I don't care for rewards, but I understand that many do.

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

9 minutes ago, rune_me said:

The only thing worse than someone using logical fallacies to defend themselves, is someone calling out logical fallacies to defend themselves.

Yes Ironically in calling me out on it, he has in fact, committed one himself.

Edited November 22, 2018 by (XB1)Clockwork Geoff
Mistake

[zetheros1]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

Which one is it that I've committed? Straw man?

 

Either way - valuable contribution bro

It's a hasty generalization to say difficulty is about bloating numbers, and I don't think that's DE's plan for the future. More recent introductions of difficulty include the bounty system, flying nullifiers, and arbitration drones. Sure, they're nuked like the rest of the content, but it's a step in the right direction. We'll have to see what the Orbs bring us in terms of difficulty.

9 minutes ago, rune_me said:

The only thing worse than someone using logical fallacies to defend themselves, is someone calling out logical fallacies to defend themselves.

I see you're going meta.

 

[DreisterDino]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

 

The top quote indicates that you don't believe that you have sufficient skill to replace the mods you use to trivialise the highest levels content. That suggests that the power to make the game harder is already within your control, and you simply choose not to make that change. 

lol....

 

if i need 200 bullets to kill an enemy because they are heavily armored and i do like 7 dmg per bullet because i dont use any mods, thats not what difficulty is.

Also, in Survivals and ESO i need to kill fast.

Once again, Fortuna pre-hotfix 24.0.4 was i a perfect state for me, the balance was just about right imo. And thats all i asked for...

give me the choice to play that content like that again (2 options: normal/hard, same rewards, blablabla said it more then once now).

 

But btw, i had hopes for ESO. But that stupid efficiency that gets so ridiculous ruins that gamemode.

It forces us to use lame mechanics and meta builds to be as quick as possible. If only this effiency-thing would be handled in a different way,

yes, i'd maybe like that gamemode to test out things and challenge myself. If effiency wouldnt be as harsh, yes i would push myself with different frames and weapons, and i would come to a point where killing would become harder and harder and surviving would become harder aswell. That could be something i enjoy.

 

But this is simply not possible right now, because before i even get to this point, efficiency decides that i have to stop now, although i didnt have any problems killing them so far or at surviving.

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

Ahh you mean like ESO or Arbitrations? Wait.. They added both fairly recently.... But you're still asking for... Uh. Yeah something isn't adding up in what you are saying. 

Let's try something else, if you accidentally take the wrong build to either of those, does that affect your perception of the difficulty/challenge? If yes, then your problem is at least partially self-created.  

 

If i take the wrong build into ESO, the game kicks me out because of efficiency. 

 

Trying something that is impossible is not difficulty.

If they would allow me to take as much time as i need (instead of effiency, something like a simple kill counter: Kill 500 enemies and 10 eximus and a boss to proceed) i could either do what you suggest (removing mods) or play as long as i feel challenged (btw, this shouldnt take several hours, thats tedious and the only challenge there is to not fall asleep until you get somewhere challenging). But the design of the gamemode doesnt allow this.

 

Arbitrations, yes i actually like them, and i even like the things most people complain about (no revive, drones), and i do play them. But this is just 1 random mission per hour, and this 1 mission could be something i dont like because it could be defection for example. It would be nice if i dont need to rely on 1 mission type thats even influenced by RNG to provide the enjoyable gamemode at the right time when i want to play. That gamemode is not bad, and appreciate that DE actually tried stuff like no-revives although they surely knew lots of people would complain, but it would be nice to have that challenge available in other content aswell that we play regulary

[SneakyErvin]

44 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

If i take the wrong build into ESO, the game kicks me out because of efficiency. 

They should have made ESO a carbon copy of Nrifts and Grifts in D3 or close to it atleast.

It would have been perfect. Trash mobs, elite mobs in groups and a meter to fill with one of the bosses at the end to kill. All with a good challenge level and appropriate loot at the end. They could have even introduced a new item just for the sake of it that lets us go further and further. Maybe not like the gems in D3 that brings power everywhere, but something similar to Fractals in GW2 where you need a specific resistance stat provided from items that you get from that content in order to push even further. Heck WF should implement both a fractal like and nrift/grift like mode.

Fractals would be great because just like in GW2, the progression in this game just as GW2 comes to a sidegrade halt. Fractals simply introduced a few new items that were worth hunting and worth the challenge they were placed behind. And same as WF, GW2 didnt have dedicated healers or tanks either, but yet had interesting boss fights.

Edited November 22, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[CoolDudeMcCool]

8 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Maybe it's time to see the enemies in a new, old light. 

I've just accepted that most people won't ever nerf themselves(waiting for DE to do that for them honestly) but I have hope that people who ask for enemy numbers to get buffed realize that they can essentially do that themselves