The game's outdated horde-shooting mechanics are showing (Challenge Discussion)

[WSPY]

So.... The summary of the whole post is.....

Rework the enemies and AI... They really need some tweaks, like a lot of tweaks.... Some of the suggestion here are great.

And yes I hate bullet sponge too!

[MJ12]

So to get back to the OP and the points @DiabolusUrsus raised here's some thoughts for discussion:

1. Modding and damage need to be changed so you don't have two otherwise identical weapons having a 10x difference in DPS simply because of their mod setup, and you can't have two otherwise identical Warframes having a 10x difference in survivability for the same. This is probably the biggest and hardest issue to tackle. One of my thoughts on this would be to change most mods into 'utility' mods, but make it so that base weapons damage increases from a combination of weapon level + currently used mod energy (so basically every mod contributes to damage). You can still have damage/survivability mods, but they should be relatively weaker and stack additively. I actually had an idea for fixing multishot, which might be worth a thread on its own as well (to sum up-multishot should fire +1 additional bullet per level, no matter what weapon you're using, but there should be drastically decreasing returns for extra damage from additional hits to the same target-if a weapon fires 1 bullet per trigger pull normally, the second bullet should do 25% (1/4th) damage to that target, the third 7.5% damage to that target, the fourth and above deal nothing-but if they hit another target, they deal full damage. These bullets would be significantly offset from the main shot to basically make Multishot all about sweeping an area rather than dealing tons of extra single target damage. Shotguns would work similarly, except the caps would be based on the base number of pellets the gun fires. For a shotgun that fires 7 pellets, the 8th through the 14th pellet deal 25% normal damage if they hit the same target, the 15th through the 21st deal 7.5% normal damage...).

2. Enemies should scale in a way which makes sense given Warframe/weapon scaling. I should be able to read enemy levels and understand exactly what they mean in an intuitive fashion. Enemy scaling should be done in a way which doesn't basically make time to kill and enemy damage all-but-asymptotic, wherein you do fine and just crush enemies until a certain level at which point they basically reach the difficulty singularity and vaporize you.

3. Enemies should be categorized into four categories-Minion, Elite, Champion, Boss. Minion enemies are basic trash enemies who should have no real special abilities, they just exist to run at you and shoot/claw/whatever you. They spawn in huge hordes and are where you get the Dynasty Warriors/Serious Sam style horde murdering feel from. They don't need sophisticated AI or movesets-just one or two attacks and that's it. Elite enemies are more dangerous enemies who spawn in small squads (2-3 at a time, say) who have a few special abilities. I'd say something like the Heavy Gunner would go in this category, although they might need one or two extra abilities in this design, and maybe have some special mechanics (e.g. they're damage resistant from the front, but have a backpack full of volatile ammo and turn around very slowly, so a Tenno can jump over them and blow up their backpack, disabling their weapon, causing an AoE explosion, and dealing heavy damage. Champion enemies are where you get the annoying guys who take a bit to burn down, maybe have some gimmicks (e.g. shields, grenades, whatever). Something like the Nox or Eximus units-they spawn 1 or 2 at a time, outside of games with really weird modifiers, have multiple attacks and moves, and take a bit of time to burn down. They should have some CC resistance. Finally, bosses are bosses. Bosses have actual mechanics, phases, enough health to survive a pounding from equal-leveled weapons and gear, and primarily rely on telegraphed, hard-hitting attacks which means you need to either significantly outlevel them or know what you're doing. Most bossfights should also have other lesser enemies to spawn in as well, to make the boss fight feel properly epic and to make it feel like something other than a damage race against a bullet sponge-this also means that bosses can be resistant to procs and CC without making CC frames worthless.

This isn't a conclusive suggestion of how mechanics should be reworked to add interesting tactical scenarios while still having that Dynasty Warriors x Serious Sam feel for Warframe combat, but it's a start for discussion.

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

In response to MJ12, a way to actually encourage quality mod builds on all gear would be to add UP TO four more mod slots while increasing mod capacity linearly. It would also work well if different slots were separated based on mod purpose similar to Exilus Mods. 

The only way to get these changes to actually be effective would be to to limit the application of certain mods that perform the same function while simultaneously implementing a mod ceiling similar to the cap on efficiency on Warframes. 

The mod ceiling is key to this working effectively as well as the where that ceiling is. 

Enemy scaling, would also need to be addressed, but once you have a set range of values the entirety of the game can be balanced around the player and their capabilities which serves to only provide a better sense of player involvement overall. I greatly like your suggestions as to enemy catagories as DE doesn’t seem to have so much as a set goal on enemy encounters so long as enemies are present. 

Currenlty, the game is set around the highest values based on equippable gear which actively encourages players to build for cheese. Building in this way actually creates a negative correlation in which the game designers must design content that can only be defeated by incredibly reductive methods. Eventually, the game is only playable “by cheese for the cheese.” 

The recent Orb Spider fights are a rudimentary example in how challenge is less about fighting and more a detrimental, running tally of how many times you will be arbitrarily knocked down. If we base our findings on number of Orb Heists completed versus total number of knock-downs accrued, you wouldn’t be wrong in your conclusion that in order to defeat an Orb Spider Boss you’d have to be knocked-down at a mean value of about 23 times. The only conclusion that can be made is that there is no difficulty besides the overall increasingly cheesy tactics being leveraged against the player which is only designed to increase game time at the players’ expense. 

Then again these tactical designs are what we can attribute to Warframe’s longevity, but these strategies only work for so long and players are growing all too tired of it. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by (XB1)ZenithLord 42
Enemy presents...

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Modding and damage need to be changed so you don't have two otherwise identical weapons having a 10x difference in DPS simply because of their mod setup, and you can't have two otherwise identical Warframes having a 10x difference in survivability for the same. This is probably the biggest and hardest issue to tackle. One of my thoughts on this would be to change most mods into 'utility' mods, but make it so that base weapons damage increases from a combination of weapon level + currently used mod energy (so basically every mod contributes to damage). You can still have damage/survivability mods, but they should be relatively weaker and stack additively.

I fully agree with the premise here.

IMO it would be simpler and more reliable to just fully balance the game around base stats. Mods should - rather than offering any simple bonuses - offer bonuses with plausible (and significant) trade-offs. For example, +Reload Speed -Magazine Size instead of just +Reload Speed. Different mods could offer different combinations of penalties (e.g., +Damage/+Recoil vs. +Damage/-Accuracy, or +Damage/-Fire Rate.), and through managing mutual exclusivity more closely we could have a modding system that prioritizes making weapons handle a certain way instead of transforming a "non-viable" weapon into a viable one.

You want a slow-firing gun that hits harder and kicks like a horse? You can make it!

You want an easy-to-control bullet hose? You can make it!

The same thing roughly applies to Warframe modding. As it is currently, it's all about capitalizing on whatever kit a Warframe already has. I would prefer to see a system where each kit is "viable" at baseline (unmodded) and can be tweaked to fit different roles more effectively (e.g., melee-focused, AOE damage, focused damage, etc.).

5 hours ago, MJ12 said:

I actually had an idea for fixing multishot, which might be worth a thread on its own as well (to sum up-multishot should fire +1 additional bullet per level, no matter what weapon you're using, but there should be drastically decreasing returns for extra damage from additional hits to the same target-if a weapon fires 1 bullet per trigger pull normally, the second bullet should do 25% (1/4th) damage to that target, the third 7.5% damage to that target, the fourth and above deal nothing-but if they hit another target, they deal full damage. These bullets would be significantly offset from the main shot to basically make Multishot all about sweeping an area rather than dealing tons of extra single target damage. Shotguns would work similarly, except the caps would be based on the base number of pellets the gun fires. For a shotgun that fires 7 pellets, the 8th through the 14th pellet deal 25% normal damage if they hit the same target, the 15th through the 21st deal 7.5% normal damage...).

I'm sure this would work, but I would prefer to see something more like this:

• +1 extra bullet per level, as you suggested.
• Forced spread for the additional bullets, as you suggested.
• Reduced damage per bullet, such that individual shots deal less while the sum of shots increases slightly. (e.g., 60% individual, 120% combined.)
• Extra recoil proportional to the number of additional bullets.
• Rifle/Pistol multishot mods reduced to R3 quality, Shotgun multishot mods reduced to R0 but double the pellet count.
• Shotgun status revised to prevent "true" 100% status-per-pellet scenarios.

I think this achieves roughly the same end-result without the awkwardness of trying to track how many bullets were effectively useless. 

5 hours ago, MJ12 said:

2. Enemies should scale in a way which makes sense given Warframe/weapon scaling. I should be able to read enemy levels and understand exactly what they mean in an intuitive fashion. Enemy scaling should be done in a way which doesn't basically make time to kill and enemy damage all-but-asymptotic, wherein you do fine and just crush enemies until a certain level at which point they basically reach the difficulty singularity and vaporize you.

Agreed! I think it would make sense to have enemies use the same level scale as players (0-30) with "endless" scaling using a combination of inflating health and resistance to CC used to drive players out rather than raw damage. The "ok we're done" threshold could be balanced to manifest at ~60, after which enemies would shrug off CC and take more time to kill than they're worth.

Assuming we use an enemy tiering system as proposed below, that would mostly apply to the Champions, with the fodder never really reaching that threshold of soft immunity.

5 hours ago, MJ12 said:

3. Enemies should be categorized into four categories-Minion, Elite, Champion, Boss. Minion enemies are basic trash enemies who should have no real special abilities, they just exist to run at you and shoot/claw/whatever you. They spawn in huge hordes and are where you get the Dynasty Warriors/Serious Sam style horde murdering feel from. They don't need sophisticated AI or movesets-just one or two attacks and that's it. Elite enemies are more dangerous enemies who spawn in small squads (2-3 at a time, say) who have a few special abilities. I'd say something like the Heavy Gunner would go in this category, although they might need one or two extra abilities in this design, and maybe have some special mechanics (e.g. they're damage resistant from the front, but have a backpack full of volatile ammo and turn around very slowly, so a Tenno can jump over them and blow up their backpack, disabling their weapon, causing an AoE explosion, and dealing heavy damage. Champion enemies are where you get the annoying guys who take a bit to burn down, maybe have some gimmicks (e.g. shields, grenades, whatever). Something like the Nox or Eximus units-they spawn 1 or 2 at a time, outside of games with really weird modifiers, have multiple attacks and moves, and take a bit of time to burn down. They should have some CC resistance. Finally, bosses are bosses. Bosses have actual mechanics, phases, enough health to survive a pounding from equal-leveled weapons and gear, and primarily rely on telegraphed, hard-hitting attacks which means you need to either significantly outlevel them or know what you're doing. Most bossfights should also have other lesser enemies to spawn in as well, to make the boss fight feel properly epic and to make it feel like something other than a damage race against a bullet sponge-this also means that bosses can be resistant to procs and CC without making CC frames worthless.

I mostly agree with this, though I'll throw it out there that no enemy should really be annoying. Difficult is fine, but annoying isn't. For example, poison bugs from Dark Souls 3 are an annoying enemy. They have near-pointless melee attacks, and their whole gimmick is that they collectively coat entire areas in poison clouds. Is the poison dangerous? Sure. But in the gameplay sense it just translates to the player waiting around for the poison to dissipate before moving in to kill more bugs. It's slow for the sake of being slow, not because the player is particularly challenged or engaged.

For that same reason, I wouldn't want champions to amount purely to damage sponges. I would prefer to have them operate such that players need to create openings to deal damage, and skilled players who exploit or counter the champion's behaviors more effectively are rewarded with a relatively short TTK.

To add on to what you've proposed already:

• Minions exist to help players combat attrition and fuel their stronger tools, restoring health/ammo/etc. in greater proportion when killed.
• Elites exist to make minions more effective through supportive powers or unique counters to players' arsenals, and mostly drop common loot.
• Champions exist to challenge players and facilitate direct cooperation, and drop mostly uncommon/rare loot.

IMO this will construct a more cohesive battlefield in terms of enemy tactics and target priorities, as well as allow for slightly more forgiving drop rates with enemy spawn rate as a secondary layer of limitation. This would also create a soft degree of "scaling" rewards and secondary difficulty for players challenging endless modes, as fewer minion spawns translate into less available health/ammo/etc. and more champion spawns translate into more chances at rarer loot.

[Mach25]

24 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I fully agree with the premise here.

IMO it would be simpler and more reliable to just fully balance the game around base stats. Mods should - rather than offering any simple bonuses - offer bonuses with plausible (and significant) trade-offs. For example, +Reload Speed -Magazine Size instead of just +Reload Speed. Different mods could offer different combinations of penalties (e.g., +Damage/+Recoil vs. +Damage/-Accuracy, or +Damage/-Fire Rate.), and through managing mutual exclusivity more closely we could have a modding system that prioritizes making weapons handle a certain way instead of transforming a "non-viable" weapon into a viable one.

You want a slow-firing gun that hits harder and kicks like a horse? You can make it!

You want an easy-to-control bullet hose? You can make it!

The same thing roughly applies to Warframe modding. As it is currently, it's all about capitalizing on whatever kit a Warframe already has. I would prefer to see a system where each kit is "viable" at baseline (unmodded) and can be tweaked to fit different roles more effectively (e.g., melee-focused, AOE damage, focused damage, etc.).

I'm sure this would work, but I would prefer to see something more like this:

• +1 extra bullet per level, as you suggested.
• Forced spread for the additional bullets, as you suggested.
• Reduced damage per bullet, such that individual shots deal less while the sum of shots increases slightly. (e.g., 60% individual, 120% combined.)
• Extra recoil proportional to the number of additional bullets.
• Rifle/Pistol multishot mods reduced to R3 quality, Shotgun multishot mods reduced to R0 but double the pellet count.
• Shotgun status revised to prevent "true" 100% status-per-pellet scenarios.

I think this achieves roughly the same end-result without the awkwardness of trying to track how many bullets were effectively useless. 

Agreed! I think it would make sense to have enemies use the same level scale as players (0-30) with "endless" scaling using a combination of inflating health and resistance to CC used to drive players out rather than raw damage. The "ok we're done" threshold could be balanced to manifest at ~60, after which enemies would shrug off CC and take more time to kill than they're worth.

Assuming we use an enemy tiering system as proposed below, that would mostly apply to the Champions, with the fodder never really reaching that threshold of soft immunity.

I mostly agree with this, though I'll throw it out there that no enemy should really be annoying. Difficult is fine, but annoying isn't. For example, poison bugs from Dark Souls 3 are an annoying enemy. They have near-pointless melee attacks, and their whole gimmick is that they collectively coat entire areas in poison clouds. Is the poison dangerous? Sure. But in the gameplay sense it just translates to the player waiting around for the poison to dissipate before moving in to kill more bugs. It's slow for the sake of being slow, not because the player is particularly challenged or engaged.

For that same reason, I wouldn't want champions to amount purely to damage sponges. I would prefer to have them operate such that players need to create openings to deal damage, and skilled players who exploit or counter the champion's behaviors more effectively are rewarded with a relatively short TTK.

To add on to what you've proposed already:

• Minions exist to help players combat attrition and fuel their stronger tools, restoring health/ammo/etc. in greater proportion when killed.
• Elites exist to make minions more effective through supportive powers or unique counters to players' arsenals, and mostly drop common loot.
• Champions exist to challenge players and facilitate direct cooperation, and drop mostly uncommon/rare loot.

IMO this will construct a more cohesive battlefield in terms of enemy tactics and target priorities, as well as allow for slightly more forgiving drop rates with enemy spawn rate as a secondary layer of limitation. This would also create a soft degree of "scaling" rewards and secondary difficulty for players challenging endless modes, as fewer minion spawns translate into less available health/ammo/etc. and more champion spawns translate into more chances at rarer loot.

You. Stop what you're doing. I want a game. NOW.

[Tyreaus]

7 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

IMO it would be simpler and more reliable to just fully balance the game around base stats. Mods should - rather than offering any simple bonuses - offer bonuses with plausible (and significant) trade-offs. For example, +Reload Speed -Magazine Size instead of just +Reload Speed. Different mods could offer different combinations of penalties (e.g., +Damage/+Recoil vs. +Damage/-Accuracy, or +Damage/-Fire Rate.), and through managing mutual exclusivity more closely we could have a modding system that prioritizes making weapons handle a certain way instead of transforming a "non-viable" weapon into a viable one.

You want a slow-firing gun that hits harder and kicks like a horse? You can make it!

You want an easy-to-control bullet hose? You can make it!

The same thing roughly applies to Warframe modding. As it is currently, it's all about capitalizing on whatever kit a Warframe already has. I would prefer to see a system where each kit is "viable" at baseline (unmodded) and can be tweaked to fit different roles more effectively (e.g., melee-focused, AOE damage, focused damage, etc.).

I'd like to say 2 things on this:

1. I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of things being balanced around base stats. It not only feels like a more natural concept, but that's kind of the sort of direction Melee 3.0 seems to be going with the combo counter not affecting standard attacks (and buffing the weapons to match). The capability is there, the precedent is almost alongside it. It's not easy, but it's doable in theory.

2. There should be something, somewhere to maintain a power fantasy. A number of players like that about Warframe. So we can't make the base stats of weapons too bad, or else that vanishes and a number of people lose interest. But we also can't make all those stats too good or else new players walk into easy mode from the welcome mat.

[Darkuhn]

I like the game how it is, when you start the game you are afraid of too many Enemys at the same time, but after a certain point you can see who can mod his equipment according to the task at hand and who has absolutely no idea how to use the mod system. A good example is the Profit Taker fight, if you play it right, you barely have to worry about Stun/Knockback spamm. Just destroy all the beacons and after a short while there won't be spawning more. You can also use frames like Revenant to keep Adds in check while the heavy hitter(e.g. Chroma) concentrate on the Orb. 

In one round I got matched with an Oberon who kept dying over and over again and complained how a Frost is needed for this Fight. I then tried it with my Oberon Build that is centered around sustained group heal of 90 health/s and adding 450 Armor to each Teammate. And for the first time outside of endurance runs this Build was really usable as it needs to take quite some damage to generate enough energy to be sustainable.

The Problems aren't the mechanics of the game in their current state. The Problems lies with the Players and their astonishing lack of understanding regarding the mechanics of the game.

If the Players would inform themselves about how the mechanics interact with one another they wouldn't complain about how things are to hard/unfair and would see how they can work with the mechanics rather than against them.

Can we trivialize content if we have all the right Things (e.g. Arcana, Mods, Frames, Gear)? Definitely! Is that a bad thing? In my Opinion: NO! For me this is what makes Warframe so different from most of the other Looter Shooters out there. You start basically powerless and longing for every energy orbs till you get to the point were you are a (demi)God killing dozens of Enemys with the pull of a trigger/cast of an Ability. But for this progression the Player needs to acquire more knowledge about the mechanics and the Tools to effectively use them.

[Steel_Rook]

The problem with a lot of the suggestions here is that we're being perhaps a bit too ambitious. Players like to criticise games for having terrible balance, but like an ecosystem they still have SOME balance. Introducing major changes isn't necessarily a bad thing, but they need to be handled VERY carefully to prevent an ecological collapse, in this metaphor.

For instance, I'm of the opinion that Multishot should never have been a thing in the first place. It's a purely behind-the-scenes mechanics gimmick that at best isn't visible during the game and at worst causes silly oddities like my sniper rifle firing two split shots 30 degrees apart when fired from the hip. I might see it as a mod for Shotguns if it added extra pellets to the spread, rather than a chance to clone EVERY SINGLE PELLET, but that's about it. The problem is that everyone's using it and the "feel" players get for the game is based around the added damage, crit and status from having Multishot. Removing it from the game or gutting it would basically piss everybody off, meaning you need to do a VERY thorough balance pass across either all weapons or all enemies... Or both. That's not impossible, but if it did happen I'd expect to see it as some kind of Modding 2.0 or 4.0 or 10.2.6 or whatever version that's up to. I'd also expect that to feature the axing or redesign of a whole host of other mods, too.

I'd like to avoid putting my foot in the broader discussion for the moment, so let me leave you with this. In an ideal world where anything is possible at the flick of a magic wand, would you keep Multishot in the game? If so, why? What does it contribute to the game, beyond a statistically optimal choice that's going to lock down a slot in every weapon build?

[DiabolusUrsus]

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

2. There should be something, somewhere to maintain a power fantasy. A number of players like that about Warframe. So we can't make the base stats of weapons too bad, or else that vanishes and a number of people lose interest. But we also can't make all those stats too good or else new players walk into easy mode from the welcome mat.

Agreed 100%. First, minions/elites would be fairly simple for players to wipe off the map, and exist in satisfactorily large quantities. Champions would fill in the occasional moderate challenge + prompt for cooperation (if applicable).

2 hours ago, Darkuhn said:

I like the game how it is, when you start the game you are afraid of too many Enemys at the same time, but after a certain point you can see who can mod his equipment according to the task at hand and who has absolutely no idea how to use the mod system.

Why would it ever be a good thing for players to not understand the game?

This might be understandable if everything were explained adequately from the beginning, and documented clearly in-game, but as it stands the only thing to learn about Warframe is that you need a wiki or a mentor.

2 hours ago, Darkuhn said:

A good example is the Profit Taker fight, if you play it right, you barely have to worry about Stun/Knockback spamm. Just destroy all the beacons and after a short while there won't be spawning more. You can also use frames like Revenant to keep Adds in check while the heavy hitter(e.g. Chroma) concentrate on the Orb. 

Ah, yes, let's throw the colorful character diversity out the window and design the game so that specific Frames are needed to solve arbitrary puzzles.

😕

2 hours ago, Darkuhn said:

In one round I got matched with an Oberon who kept dying over and over again and complained how a Frost is needed for this Fight. I then tried it with my Oberon Build that is centered around sustained group heal of 90 health/s and adding 450 Armor to each Teammate. And for the first time outside of endurance runs this Build was really usable as it needs to take quite some damage to generate enough energy to be sustainable.

The Problems aren't the mechanics of the game in their current state. The Problems lies with the Players and their astonishing lack of understanding regarding the mechanics of the game.

If the Players would inform themselves about how the mechanics interact with one another they wouldn't complain about how things are to hard/unfair and would see how they can work with the mechanics rather than against them.

Why are we blaming the players for not researching the rules when it's the game's responsibility to explain the rules? How can players be expected to always know the rules when the rules themselves are extremely convoluted and entirely inconsistent?

Are we really going to blame a player 2 years down the road if they miss the memo that Shattering Impact is useless against the Profit Taker?

The only difficulty this presents is a) knowing something exists and b) knowing what it does.

2 hours ago, Darkuhn said:

Can we trivialize content if we have all the right Things (e.g. Arcana, Mods, Frames, Gear)? Definitely! Is that a bad thing? In my Opinion: NO! For me this is what makes Warframe so different from most of the other Looter Shooters out there. You start basically powerless and longing for every energy orbs till you get to the point were you are a (demi)God killing dozens of Enemys with the pull of a trigger/cast of an Ability. But for this progression the Player needs to acquire more knowledge about the mechanics and the Tools to effectively use them.

Okay, that's fine.

But don't ever ask for more challenging content. The only way to challenge players with infinite power is to take those powers away, which is precisely what DE has done through nullifiers, e. leeches, mission conditions, etc.

IMO having enemies simply cancel my powers cheapens them more than any reasonable limitation could. What good are godly powers when your average mook can just switch them off?

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

The problem with a lot of the suggestions here is that we're being perhaps a bit too ambitious. Players like to criticise games for having terrible balance, but like an ecosystem they still have SOME balance. Introducing major changes isn't necessarily a bad thing, but they need to be handled VERY carefully to prevent an ecological collapse, in this metaphor.

True, but Warframe regularly undergoes major changes without suffering collapse. It survived Damage 2.0. It survived Melee 2.0. It survived Parkour 2.0. It's going to survive melee 3.0.

The key is continued developmental support; if something works out poorly it can be changed.

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

For instance, I'm of the opinion that Multishot should never have been a thing in the first place. It's a purely behind-the-scenes mechanics gimmick that at best isn't visible during the game and at worst causes silly oddities like my sniper rifle firing two split shots 30 degrees apart when fired from the hip. I might see it as a mod for Shotguns if it added extra pellets to the spread, rather than a chance to clone EVERY SINGLE PELLET, but that's about it. The problem is that everyone's using it and the "feel" players get for the game is based around the added damage, crit and status from having Multishot. Removing it from the game or gutting it would basically piss everybody off, meaning you need to do a VERY thorough balance pass across either all weapons or all enemies... Or both. That's not impossible, but if it did happen I'd expect to see it as some kind of Modding 2.0 or 4.0 or 10.2.6 or whatever version that's up to. I'd also expect that to feature the axing or redesign of a whole host of other mods, too.

Players are going to get pissed over any change, no matter how big or small. It would certainly be simpler to just axe multishot, but the core issue is that it's just extra damage + status + crit.

Both my and @MJ12's suggestions would change the dynamic significantly and make it less of an obvious choice.

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'd like to avoid putting my foot in the broader discussion for the moment, so let me leave you with this. In an ideal world where anything is possible at the flick of a magic wand, would you keep Multishot in the game? If so, why? What does it contribute to the game, beyond a statistically optimal choice that's going to lock down a slot in every weapon build?

Yes, I would keep it, because it's interesting. There will always be an "optimal" build, and there's no reasonable way to get around that.

The key is shrinking the difference between "optimal" and "good, but not perfect" to the point that most players can ignore it and have fun with the system.

Multishot just needs to change from "always good" to "sometimes good," depending on what you're building for.

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

The problem with a lot of the suggestions here is that we're being perhaps a bit too ambitious. Players like to criticise games for having terrible balance, but like an ecosystem they still have SOME balance. Introducing major changes isn't necessarily a bad thing, but they need to be handled VERY carefully to prevent an ecological collapse, in this metaphor.

For instance, I'm of the opinion that Multishot should never have been a thing in the first place. It's a purely behind-the-scenes mechanics gimmick that at best isn't visible during the game and at worst causes silly oddities like my sniper rifle firing two split shots 30 degrees apart when fired from the hip. I might see it as a mod for Shotguns if it added extra pellets to the spread, rather than a chance to clone EVERY SINGLE PELLET, but that's about it. The problem is that everyone's using it and the "feel" players get for the game is based around the added damage, crit and status from having Multishot. Removing it from the game or gutting it would basically piss everybody off, meaning you need to do a VERY thorough balance pass across either all weapons or all enemies... Or both. That's not impossible, but if it did happen I'd expect to see it as some kind of Modding 2.0 or 4.0 or 10.2.6 or whatever version that's up to. I'd also expect that to feature the axing or redesign of a whole host of other mods, too.

I'd like to avoid putting my foot in the broader discussion for the moment, so let me leave you with this. In an ideal world where anything is possible at the flick of a magic wand, would you keep Multishot in the game? If so, why? What does it contribute to the game, beyond a statistically optimal choice that's going to lock down a slot in every weapon build?

I agree, but if an ecological change is made to improve a given system that has certain deleterious effects, that change can hardly be considered an improvement. Change without foresight, is a recipe for disaster. 

On the subject of Mutlishot, ever since the advent of Dark Sector, DE has had a strange love affair with the concept. In that game, it could be modded for at the expense of accuracy. I find the idea odd from the standpoint that it would fire additional bullets as opposed to splitting the round or simply creating extra rounds based on RNG as Warframe does. It also seems that multishot may have been an attempt to make the weapons have burst-fire capability without changing the stats inherent in the weapon itself, but this is also odd as they should have called it simply “burst-fire.” 

In the case on multishot, I would reduce it to a moddable option that functions similarly to now, but more or less has the option of splintering the rounds with each round containing a portion of the original damage, but relatively similar values of critical chance/damage and status based on what kind of projectile has been fired. 

Edited December 27, 2018 by (XB1)ZenithLord 42
Burst-Fire

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

The problem with a lot of the suggestions here is that we're being perhaps a bit too ambitious. Players like to criticise games for having terrible balance, but like an ecosystem they still have SOME balance. Introducing major changes isn't necessarily a bad thing, but they need to be handled VERY carefully to prevent an ecological collapse, in this metaphor.

TBF on this point: from what I recall of WF history, Warframe only took off to the level it's at now because of a ridiculously ambitious change (mostly to movement but to a number of other things as well). So it's not like they haven't done huge shifts before, and to massive benefit.

_{Not to say it's always a good idea to "go big or go home", but DE's done it right before. I'd almost be inclined to argue they do better on the big shifts than the small ones - if I knew their history better...}

EDIT:

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Agreed 100%. First, minions/elites would be fairly simple for players to wipe off the map, and exist in satisfactorily large quantities. Champions would fill in the occasional moderate challenge + prompt for cooperation (if applicable).

Quasi-random idea:

What if we had the ability to "Infuse" our Warframes with operator powers, adding Operator and Amp stats onto the Warframe's and weapons' stats (respectively), for a temporary boost in power?

It'd definitely maintain the power fantasy—at least for brief moments (as, IMO, it should - constant nuking isn't as engaging as getting to do it occasionally).

Edited December 27, 2018 by Tyreaus

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

EDIT:

Quasi-random idea:

What if we had the ability to "Infuse" our Warframes with operator powers, adding Operator and Amp stats onto the Warframe's and weapons' stats (respectively), for a temporary boost in power?

It'd definitely maintain the power fantasy—at least for brief moments (as, IMO, it should - constant nuking isn't as engaging as getting to do it occasionally).

Honestly I would want the Focus trees to be redone to support minor Warframe specialization/customization alongside Operator progression, and see the reintroduction of Focus active powers that serve this function for the Warframe.

100% agreed regarding the use of nukes. Using them too often "cheapens" them much faster and makes them boring. If nukes needed to be used more sparingly, they could even be made stronger to compensate.

[Tyreaus]

47 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Honestly I would want the Focus trees to be redone to support minor Warframe specialization/customization alongside Operator progression, and see the reintroduction of Focus active powers that serve this function for the Warframe.

_{Me: Still secretly wanting to Void buff his Warframes, sad faec}

But yeah, I don't know how far Focus should support Warframe customization, because the more it falls on Focus, the less it can fall on mods. That uniqueness is kind of the good niche for the modding system you proposed.

Then again, it likely depends on the particulars of exactly what the Focus schools would do in that manner. If it's something tied to Transference, for example, that's not a thing a mod can do quite as well. Devil's in the details, as they say.

[BlackCoMerc]

Horde modes were the worst thing to ever happen to this game.

Ninjas infiltrate, spy, espionage, exterminate, assassinate and undermine. And occasionally assault.

The game needs rewarding tactical missions with definitive end/success states. The endless horde mode fillers were a stand in for actual content and have held this game back for years.

[Darkuhn]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

The only difficulty this presents is a) knowing something exists and b) knowing what it does.

Yet many people aren't even able to inform themselves about the basic mechanics of the game. And the wiki isn't that hard to find....

The game could explain more, but as the community keeps the wiki updated as things change I don't see any need for more information being presented ingame.

As the wiki is easyl accessible with a list of nearly all things for all Categories there is no reason to not be informed about both of the difficulty factors you mentioned.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

But don't ever ask for more challenging content. 

I like the current difficulty of the high level Fortuna enemys they pose a threat when they surprise you but aren't too hard to counter if you are prepared.

Also difficulty through Enemy Abilitys that limit what Players can use against them is exactly how I expect future Enemys in Warframe. There will always be a way to counter them either through special equipment, weapons, Frames or Operator actions. You need to know how to handle each individual Enemy and that is what makes Warframe unique. Sadly at the moment Corpus are the only Faction that has counter for our Abilitys. 

vor 4 Stunden schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

Are we really going to blame a player 2 years down the road if they miss the memo that Shattering Impact is useless against the Profit Taker?

Yes as they failed to gather the important informations beforehand. 

vor 4 Stunden schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

when it's the game's responsibility

In my opinion it isn't.

For me its part of Warframes charme that you have to gather all the informations yourself. Sure you can still use guides or finished builds but if you understand what every piece of your equipment is doing and how they can interact with one another you can customize your Builds to fit into your Playstyle. Which increases the Fun you can get out of playing the game.

And this is were the general Difficulty comes into play. If Warframe would get to hard there would only be a handful of working builds. As Warframe is now you can complete everything using the builds you like, some will work better and some might not work at all but with over 30 different Frames and over 300 Weapons there will always be a combination that is better at solving different challenges then your goto "jack-of-all-trades" build.

Warframe is unique in giving the players the opportunity to decide how much time they want to spend on preparing for a specific Mission and according to the Time the Players invest in preparing themselves the difficulty lowers dramatically.

A well prepared Team has no problems facing anything Warframe has to offer.

But to get to this point you have to play the Game for hundreds of hours and acquire a wide variety of things like Mods, Arcana, Frames, specific Weapons and experience in what they can do and what they can't do. 

There aren't that many games that require their Players to inform themselves to an extend were informed players can breezes through Content uninformed players struggle to complete. And I like that about Warframe.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Darkuhn

[Tyreaus]

I believe it was a criticism of Minecraft when someone said "I'm here to punch trees, not read a wiki".

It's fine to have a game where trial and error is a factor. But one has to understand that trial and error exists. "You need to read the wiki" is not an appropriate response. Wikis today are, or at least should be, the guidebooks of yesterday: not essential, but a shortcut. Trial and error isn't reading a wiki, it's trying—and failing.

Once one recognizes that exists and is what's happening, the next step is to smooth it out and balance it so there's an okay, not excessive, amount of failing on the path to success.

[Darkuhn]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Tyreaus:

"You need to read the wiki" is not an appropriate response.

everyone I told that thanked me later as it really helped them understand the Basics at their own pace.

[MirageKnight]

1 minute ago, Darkuhn said:

everyone I told that thanked me later

Anecdotal evidence much?

[Tyreaus]

8 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

everyone I told that thanked me later as it really helped them understand the Basics at their own pace.

Allow me to rephrase:

"You need to read the wiki" should not be an appropriate response. If someone has to go to an external source to learn how something works, the game has failed. If they can learn it themselves, whether through frontally presented information or trial and error, then everything is fine. _{At least as long as the trial and error aspect is reasonable.}

I reiterate:

Wikis should never be essential. Helpful, yes. Necessary, no.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Tyreaus

[DiabolusUrsus]

34 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

_{Me: Still secretly wanting to Void buff his Warframes, sad faec}

But yeah, I don't know how far Focus should support Warframe customization, because the more it falls on Focus, the less it can fall on mods. That uniqueness is kind of the good niche for the modding system you proposed.

Then again, it likely depends on the particulars of exactly what the Focus schools would do in that manner. If it's something tied to Transference, for example, that's not a thing a mod can do quite as well. Devil's in the details, as they say.

To be clear, I'm fine with making active buffs "Void based," I just want them to be thematically tied to the school and independent of the amps.

18 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Horde modes were the worst thing to ever happen to this game.

Ninjas infiltrate, spy, espionage, exterminate, assassinate and undermine. And occasionally assault.

The game needs rewarding tactical missions with definitive end/success states. The endless horde mode fillers were a stand in for actual content and have held this game back for years.

I'm afraid that I have to disagree. I'll readily concede that mindless hordes have prevented the game from really developing mechanically, but I don't see that as a reason to push an entirely different game dynamic.

I think it's fine to interpret "ninja" as a loose aesthetic rather than dogmatic limitation of combat role.

The game needs more engaging play to be sure, but it's possible for that to coexist with horde play.

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

Yet many people aren't even able to inform themselves about the basic mechanics of the game. And the wiki isn't that hard to find....

Yet many players have better things to do with their time than read countless possibly-out-of-date articles on a game they are not even sure they like yet.

Warframe has a problem with player retention for a reason.

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

The game could explain more, but as thre community keeps the wiki updated as things change I don't see any need for more information being presented ingame.

Why not? What is the rationale for neglecting mechanical documentation and proper tutorials?

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

As the wiki is easyl accessible with a list of nearly all things for all Categories there is no reason to not being informed about both of the difficulty factors you mentioned.

Why should the game risk it in the first place? Why can't it just guarantee player awareness to start with?

How is player ignorance equatable with difficulty?

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

I like the current difficulty of the high level Fortuna enemys they pose a threat when they surprise you but aren't to hard to counter if you are prepared.

So are the enemies difficult or not?

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

Also difficulty through Enemy Abilitys that limit what Players can use against them is exactly how I expect future Enemys in Warframe. There will always be a way to counter them either through special equipment, weapons, Frames or Operator actions. You need to know how to handle each individual Enemy and that is what makes Warframe unique. Sadly at the moment Corpus are the only Faction that has counter for our Abilitys. 

Are you joking? The counter to all of those enemies is exactly the same as in any other game: shoot them.

Warframe is hardly unique in requiring counter-play, but it is decisively sub-par when it comes to the quality of said counter-play.

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

Yes as they failed to gather the important informations beforehand.

Are you the type of player who reads strategy guides before actually playing the game? Because that's essentially what consulting the wiki is.

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

In my opinion it isn't.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but denying players essential information is almost universally recognized as bad design.

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

For me its part of Warframes charme that you have to gather all the informations yourself. Sure you can still use guides or finished builds but if you understand what every piece of your equipment is doing and how they can interact with one another you can customize your Builds to fit into your Playstyle. Which increases the Fun you can get out of playing the game.

And this is were the general Difficulty comes into play. If Warframe would get to hard there would only be a handful of working builds. As Warframe is now you can complete everything using the builds you like, some will work better and some might not work at all but with over 30 different Frames and over 300 Weapons there will always be a combination that is better at solving different challenges then your goto "jack-of-all-trades" build.

Warframe is unique in giving the players the opportunity to decide how much time they want to spend on preparing for a specific Mission and according to the Time the Players invest in preparing themselves the difficulty lowers dramatically.

A well prepared Team has no problems facing anything Warframe has to offer.

When a game goes from frustratingly and mystifyingly difficult to trivially easy after reading a handful of articles, that's called fake difficulty.

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

But to get to this point you have to play the Game for hundreds of hours and acquire a wide variety of things like Mods, Arcana, Frames, specific Weapons and experience in what they can do and what they can't do.

No you don't.

Simply having someone show you the ropes allows players to skip the vast majority of experience accumulation and most critical progression items can be bought.

More importantly, why is playing a game for hundreds of hours a virtue? Why is it a good thing for a F2P game to be inaccessible?

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

There aren't that many games that require their Players to inform themselves to an extend were informed players can breezes through the Content where uninformed players struggle to complete. And I like that about Warframe.

There's a reason for that scarcity, and Warframe has arguably achieved success DESPITE these qualities, not BECAUSE of them.

It's one thing when a game thematically denies players information and tasks them with finding it (like Subnautica as a survival experience). It's another thing when a game utterly fails to tell players basic information about how it works.

[Darkuhn]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Tyreaus:

I reiterate:

Wikis should never be essential. Helpful, yes. Necessary, no.

If the game would contain the informations that are provided by the wiki with all the formulas involved Manny players would be overwhelmed within the first few hours.

If the Codex would contain a bit more basic information about how mods really interact with the base values of things it could definitely help new players. 

Also Warframe offers a a really good trail and error Sandbox with the Simulacrum.

On the Topic of Multishot Mods:

Instead of removing them I would let them consume additional Ammo so they wouldn't be an autotake but still offer more Bang on each multishot.

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

If the game would contain the informations that are provided by the wiki with all the formulas involved Manny players would be overwhelmed within the first few hours.

Players are already overwhelmed the second they finish Vor's Prize. That's why tutorials are important; they guide players to important info and make it digestible.

5 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

If the Codex would contain a bit more basic information about how mods really interact with the base values of things it could definitely help new players.

Yep, provided they know the Codex exists and it doesn't require scanning to access that info.

5 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

Also Warframe offers a a really good trail and error Sandbox with the Simulacrum.

A sandbox buried deep into a Syndicate grind that new players don't even know exists, and isn't explained at all in-game.

5 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

On the Topic of Multishot Mods:

Instead of removing them I would let them consume additional Ammo so they wouldn't be an autotake but still offer more Bang on each multishot.

This just makes multishot into another bog-standard ROF stat. Each extra bullet is just +100% fire rate.

[Darkuhn]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

Are you the type of player who reads strategy guides before actually playing the game? Because that's essentially what consulting the wiki is. 

I inform my self beforehand and then try some things to find the Gear combination that works the best for me. I have specific Loadouts for some Activities and Some general purpose Builds.

vor 17 Minuten schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

The game needs more engaging play to be sure, but it's possible for that to coexist with horde play.

I read your idea about the Elite and Champion Enemys and that could work, and it reminds me a little of Vermintide 2. 

vor 21 Minuten schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

denying players essential information

A lot of the essential Informations is already in the game within the Codex, the problem is, we might have different opinions about what is considered essential. For me everything from how crit levels work to how shield recharge rates are calculated or how EHP are calculated would be considered essential information and there is no way DE could provide sufficient Tutorials for all that. As those informations would be overwhelming for most of the newer players.

For me the Wiki, Reddit and the Forum do provide all the Information I need. And the little blind spots left I do cover through testing stuff my self. As I have rather limited to play I like to not waste that time on testing stuff others already tested. And reading is so much faster than testing my self.

If the Codex would contain ALL the information of the Wiki and would be updated with each hotfix I would bet that a large part of the Community would still me uninformed, as people don't like to read. And they also don't like tutorials that take longer than 5 min. 

But Warframe is so complex in what you can combine to get a specific result that the Tutorial would at least take an hour of cutscenes. 

And please spare me with comments like "then the complexity should be toned down" as this is what I like about the game.

vor 42 Minuten schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

There's a reason for that scarcity, and Warframe has arguably achieved success DESPITE these qualities, not BECAUSE of them

For me these Qualities are the reason I like Warframe so much.

vor 54 Minuten schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

Simply having someone show you the ropes allows players to skip the vast majority of experience accumulation

And this differs from informing one self through the Wiki? Right it doesn't.

vor 55 Minuten schrieb DiabolusUrsus:

most critical progression items can be bought.

So you tell every new player you encounter that they should acquire Plat to pay for Slots/Potatoes/Forma/Arcanes/Primed Mods etc. I fail to see how this benefits player retention. 

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Ninjas infiltrate, spy, espionage, exterminate, assassinate and undermine. And occasionally assault.

The game needs rewarding tactical missions with definitive end/success states.

Well I'll be damned.  BCM came back again for the umpteenth time and finally said something that I agree with.  

[DiabolusUrsus]

19 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

I inform my self beforehand and then try some things to find the Gear combination that works the best for me. I have specific Loadouts for some Activities and Some general purpose Builds.

Don't dodge the question by telling me something I already know.

Quote

I read your idea about the Elite and Champion Enemys and that could work, and it reminds me a little of Vermintide 2. 

Okay?

Quote

A lot of the essential Informations is already in the game within the Codex, the problem is, we might have different opinions about what is considered essential. For me everything from how crit levels work to how shield recharge rates are calculated or how EHP are calculated would be considered essential information and there is no way DE could provide sufficient Tutorials for all that. As those informations would be overwhelming for most of the newer players.

Essential information would be stuff like: elements exist, here are the types, here's what they do, and you can combine them.

Or: The Teralyst, unlike 90% of the enemies in the game, is immune to status effects.

Or: Ambulas, unlike 99% of the other proxies in the game, is immune to Virap status.

Quote

For me the Wiki, Reddit and the Forum do provide all the Information I need. And the little blind spots left I do cover through testing stuff my self. As I have rather limited to play I like to not waste that time on testing stuff others already tested. And reading is so much faster than testing my self.

And other players don't like to waste time reading about a game rather than playing it. Is that difficult to understand?

Quote

If the Codex would contain ALL the information of the Wiki and would be updated with each hotfix I would bet that a large part of the Community would still me uninformed, as people don't like to read.

Why is it ok to read a wiki but not a codex?

Quote

And they also don't like tutorials that take longer than 5 min.

Tutorials don't have to be forced all at once, as proven by Vor's prize.

Quote

But Warframe is so complex in what you can combine to get a specific result that the Tutorial would at least take an hour of cutscenes.

Exaggeration. Simple hover tooltips would solve much of the existing ambiguity, and conditional prompts could cover the rest.

It would also be fine to allow players to skip tutorials and refer to/repeat them at a later time through the codex.

Quote

And please spare me with comments like "then the complexity should be toned down" as this is what I like about the game.

Complexity without depth is pretty pointless. Complexity is fine, but arbitrary and inconsistent complexity is bad design.

Quote

For me these Qualities are the reason I like Warframe so much.

Quote

And this differs from informing one self through the Wiki? Right it doesn't.

So you tell every new player you encounter that they should acquire Plat to pay for Slots/Potatoes/Forma/Arcanes/Primed Mods etc. I fail to see how this benefits player retention. 

You critically misunderstood the points I was making here. You claimed that it took significant time investment to learn the game.

I gave examples showing your claim to be incorrect.

Having a mentor is a lot faster than reading the wiki because the mentor can guide the player directly to critical information instead of burdening the player with figuring out what to search. In other words, the mentor is performing the function of a tutorial.

Warframe's nature as an F2P game means players can pay to skip progression, which makes complexity for the sake of drawing out progression a poor argument.