A level slider will not be enough

[DerGreif2]

So first off: I played Anthem in the last few days (don’t kill me) and also Diablo 3. In Anthem I loved the challenge in hard mode. It’s so enjoyable that I would like to implement it in Warframe as well because we need some challenge ingame.

In my opinion a level slider would do nothing for Warframe because the scaling is broken. As an example: you can kill with a maxed pointblank mod and a hek a level 1 lancer and also a level 45 lancer in one shot. Maybe a bad example but you see where I coming from. 44 level difference but no effect for something that a new player can get in a day. But if you talk about level 90 to 100… that’s a huge deal. It goes from “you can oneshot them” to “they can oneshot you”. So because scaling is a problem there is in my opinion other things needed to make it a challenge. And yes: this is for getting a challenge. Not for new players or for people that are not ready. So just let me explain how the stages should be balanced. In that kind of difficulties it should be normal to have at least one support frame like trin or harrow to be able to survive. Bonus rewards are nice but nothing that you really need to have a good time. Also the following stages are just templates and just a direction where I want them to go. They also tackle our OPness with removal of pizza usages, seeing invisible frames and removal of energy and health orb drops so that we rely on our teammates or weapons to get energy or health back:

 

 

Normal:

-        Current state

-        No drop/ bonus

-        No effects on gameplay

 

 

Hard:

+25% XP for killing enemies, +25% more item drops, no credit and mod rewards in reward tables

-        Normal Enemies deal 50% more damage and have 50% more health

-        2x chance for eximus units to spawn

-        2x chance for Elite Units to spawn (Gunners etc)

-        Elite and Eximus units deal 50% more damage, have 50% more health and receive 25% less damage

-        Half the chance for energy orbs to drop

-        Half the chance for health orbs to drop

-        No usage of energy and health pizzas

-        Just 3 revives instead of 4

 

Extreme:

+50% XP for killing enemies, +50% more item drops, no credit and mod rewards in reward tables

-        Normal Enemies deal 75% more damage and have 75% more health

-        3x chance for eximus units to spawn

-        3x chance for Elite Units to spawn (Gunners etc)

-        Elite and Eximus units deal 50% more damage, have 50% more health and receive 50% less damage

-        No energy orb drops (not even with Nekros)

-        No health orb drop (not even with Nekros)

-        No usage of energy and health pizzas

-        Just 2 revives instead of 4

-        Eximus units can see invisible frames and prioritizes them

-        Eximus units are immune to stuns and knock downs

 

 

Master:

+100% XP for killing enemies, +100% more item drops, no credit and mod rewards in reward tables

-        Normal Enemies deal 125% more damage and have 125% more health

-        5x chance for eximus units to spawn

-        5x chance for Elite Units to spawn (Gunners etc)

-        Elite and Eximus units deal 50% more damage, have 50% more health and receive 75% less damage

-        No energy orb drops (not even with Nekros)

-        No health orb drop (not even with Nekros)

-        No usage of energy and health pizzas

-        Just 1 revive instead of 4

-        Eximus and Elite units can see invisible frames and prioritizes them

Eximus and Elite units are immune to stuns and knock downs

 

 

Even if you dont like some things: please post your suggestion how to make it better. Pls help me to make some great changes so that DE maybe could use some ideas out of this so that the people that want a challenge can get one without nerfing themselves.

 

Thank you

Edited February 18, 2019 by DerGreif2

[Jiminez_Burial]

You say you've gotten these concerns after playing Anthem...  Anthem doesn't do scaling right either, in fact the only difference between Warframe and Anthem is that Anthem's enemies are more bullet spongy to begin with because when played right, it isn't as fast paced of a game as Warframe is.

You also say that you take issue with enemies going from being able to be one shot to being able to one shot the player, and then you go and suggest in every 'difficulty stage' that they get +% health and +% damage.  What?!?!  So all that would achieve is making the transition from killed to killer happen earlier... which is what the level scaling does anyway.

The restrictions on energy/health orbs is stupid also.  What is Warframe when you can't use abilities?  Just another shooter.  How do players stay alive?  By using their abilities.  Tying this with the other restrictions and increasing eximus spawns will just make the game hell to play, not enjoyable due to difficulty, but a means to truly suffer due to any enemy being able to one shot you (because remember, they have +125% damage on normal units) with no way of mitigating it beyond hiding in a corner and using punchthrough so the enemies can't hit you.

I think everyone who suggest pure stat changes as a form of difficulty balancing beyond the normal star chart isn't understanding what makes good difficulty in games.  It's how the enemies react and giving them more ways to react that is needed.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Starfreak911 said:

I think everyone who suggest pure stat changes as a form of difficulty balancing beyond the normal star chart isn't understanding what makes good difficulty in games.  It's how the enemies react and giving them more ways to react that is needed.

FULL agreement.

Numbers are not hard. At best they're frustrating as your power fantasy can go out the window in a second when you become an ant to an enemy that can wipe you out in a second but that you can barely touch.  It also makes balancing the game impossible. We fight the same enemies at level 15 and 150. The power disparity is massive and that means that our power disparity must be massive. And with such huge amounts of power being thrown around, small changes have huge effects. It's like two ships setting off from the same harbour but with a difference in heading of 1 degree. What's a miniscule increase in power near the start of the game can swiftly become game-breaking at endgame. Balances for endgame can screw over early-game players for the same reason.

Bringing this huge power disparity in line and making difficulty based more on enemies is the way to go. Like it or not, more enemies need to be able to deal with our abilities, at least ones like Mass-area nuking and hard CC dead zones. And I say the latter as a Limbo main. A few enemies - most likely minibosses- need to be resistant to these abilities and preferentially target players utilising them to make reliance on them unsustainable. You must have a more balanced build and be more versatile to survive.

In turn, enemies should have limits on how often they can activate their abilities so we can reasonably react to them - knockdowns are the big contender here. People would complain a lot less about being stunned if they could dodge it consistently - and to do that we need to see it coming. Once systems that make enemy abilities more fun to play against are on the field, more can be implemented, or other interactions. Using OV, imagine if instead of Trenchers trying to knock you down all the time leading to stunlocks even when that's not a benefit for the enemy, but instead they'll wait until you pass over an area that a Embattor Mortar, or a turret area of effect. And that this was consistent enough that the player could use this to use Trencher attacks as a rocket jump

Enemies also need to react differently, not just by enemy type but by faction since right now, there isn't much difference in fighting each faction. Grineer fit the best in the current system that favours them using very military-esque tactics like tactical use of cover. They are the military space marine faction after all. But the Corpus using military tactics doesn't really make much sense since the enemies we fight are a security detail for a merchant cult. But that whole 'security detail' should mean they're better equipped for defence then the aggressive Grineer. Imagine them using technology to focus on limiting and containing the player, or trying to, similar to the Valkyr Prime trailer. For example, setting up barriers that defend them and prevent players from entering. And imagine how satisfying it'd be to shatter those defences and see enemies actually scatter before you in fear.

OV enemies should instead have more mobility options to try and surround you and get multiple positions - for example snipers having grappling hooks to get up on the Fungi to aim down on you. Right now if OV enemies are on one of these they lock up and can't do anything, except occasionally shoot if the angle is just right. If they're meant to be more elite Corpus, they should have better tactics than 'Rush down enemies'.

Infested should have more horror-esque abilities. Light infested, for example could get the ability to wall-crawl, and enemies could spawn that infest an area that  increases spawns or spawns new, more powerful infested and is a pain to dislodge once it's taken root. Similar to the OV alert beacons, but start up slower and are harder to destroy once established. Something players will really want to stay on top of unless they want to be overwhelmed.

 

Those are just my thoughts though.

[5H4DE]

You say a level slider isn't good enough then propose a stat slider as a solution? Maybe you don't realise it but what you are suggesting is basically the same as what we have right now, the difference is the number above the enemy's head.

I agree with what Starfreak911 said, what we need is better AI not inflated stats.

Edited February 18, 2019 by TheRealShade

[--END--Rikutatis]

8 hours ago, Starfreak911 said:

...

I think everyone who suggest pure stat changes as a form of difficulty balancing beyond the normal star chart isn't understanding what makes good difficulty in games.  It's how the enemies react and giving them more ways to react that is needed.

And what exactly that 900 IQ enemy is going to do when Rhino mass stomps CC the whole map and proceeds to one shot all enemies with his AoE weapon of choice? For me it's a mix of higher levels and better AI, not only one or the other. And if I had to choose one and only one, I'd pick levels. At least it gives enemies more room to be a threat and it gives the player less room to make mistakes or just face tank everything. But sure, ideally you'd have better scaling and combat mechanics and much better enemy AI. The Division 2 got a lot of this right from what I played in their private beta. 

[AtsiaZ]

So you're two highest suggestions not only immediately make Nekros, Nezha, and Hildryn in-viable,but also make Health Conversion, Energy Conversion, and Arcane Energize useless. So that's an immediate no.

[True_Naeblis]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

FULL agreement.

Numbers are not hard. At best they're frustrating as your power fantasy can go out the window in a second when you become an ant to an enemy that can wipe you out in a second but that you can barely touch.  It also makes balancing the game impossible. We fight the same enemies at level 15 and 150. The power disparity is massive and that means that our power disparity must be massive. And with such huge amounts of power being thrown around, small changes have huge effects. It's like two ships setting off from the same harbour but with a difference in heading of 1 degree. What's a miniscule increase in power near the start of the game can swiftly become game-breaking at endgame. Balances for endgame can screw over early-game players for the same reason.

Bringing this huge power disparity in line and making difficulty based more on enemies is the way to go. Like it or not, more enemies need to be able to deal with our abilities, at least ones like Mass-area nuking and hard CC dead zones. And I say the latter as a Limbo main. A few enemies - most likely minibosses- need to be resistant to these abilities and preferentially target players utilising them to make reliance on them unsustainable. You must have a more balanced build and be more versatile to survive.

In turn, enemies should have limits on how often they can activate their abilities so we can reasonably react to them - knockdowns are the big contender here. People would complain a lot less about being stunned if they could dodge it consistently - and to do that we need to see it coming. Once systems that make enemy abilities more fun to play against are on the field, more can be implemented, or other interactions. Using OV, imagine if instead of Trenchers trying to knock you down all the time leading to stunlocks even when that's not a benefit for the enemy, but instead they'll wait until you pass over an area that a Embattor Mortar, or a turret area of effect. And that this was consistent enough that the player could use this to use Trencher attacks as a rocket jump

Enemies also need to react differently, not just by enemy type but by faction since right now, there isn't much difference in fighting each faction. Grineer fit the best in the current system that favours them using very military-esque tactics like tactical use of cover. They are the military space marine faction after all. But the Corpus using military tactics doesn't really make much sense since the enemies we fight are a security detail for a merchant cult. But that whole 'security detail' should mean they're better equipped for defence then the aggressive Grineer. Imagine them using technology to focus on limiting and containing the player, or trying to, similar to the Valkyr Prime trailer. For example, setting up barriers that defend them and prevent players from entering. And imagine how satisfying it'd be to shatter those defences and see enemies actually scatter before you in fear.

OV enemies should instead have more mobility options to try and surround you and get multiple positions - for example snipers having grappling hooks to get up on the Fungi to aim down on you. Right now if OV enemies are on one of these they lock up and can't do anything, except occasionally shoot if the angle is just right. If they're meant to be more elite Corpus, they should have better tactics than 'Rush down enemies'.

Infested should have more horror-esque abilities. Light infested, for example could get the ability to wall-crawl, and enemies could spawn that infest an area that  increases spawns or spawns new, more powerful infested and is a pain to dislodge once it's taken root. Similar to the OV alert beacons, but start up slower and are harder to destroy once established. Something players will really want to stay on top of unless they want to be overwhelmed.

 

Those are just my thoughts though.

You and others have nailed this plenty of times, it just seems to fall on deaf ears. Players go back and replay games like Ninja Gaiden, DMC, Bayonetta, Metal Gear, Dead Space 1/2, Nier, and others because you can experience the encounters at a variety of difficulties and each presents its own challenge without resorting to bullet sponge enemies. The biggest problem is that DE makes the basis for these systems then ignores them. The Kela fight, for instance, has mechanics that no matter how powerful your frame is must be completed to clear it. There are possibilities for this in other fights, but instead of implementing them properly by say having a means to deactivate bosses' invincibility phases or down them early and dealing them at least some level of damage you literally just fly around dodging bullets for 15 seconds at a time or stand there bored while your frame does the invul dance back.

Warframe has a silly number of bosses and mini bosses that are utterly ignored because, one, their mechanics are headache inducing with how boring they are, and two, the rewards are empty once you have them. How many people deal with the Jackal or the Hyenka pack again once they've farmed Rhino or unlocked the next node other than to help newbies? Why don't those fights have real mechanics that would make them interesting to take on again and offer a chance at useful rewards? Have rotations where each comes up offering weapons, parts, BPs, catalysts, reactors, rivens, whatever, as incentive to take them on again.

The main thing is this: the fights need to be fun, and DE just does a poor, poor job of using anything other than knockbacks and artificial hobbling to increase "difficulty". Doing the Raptor on an increased cold damage, frames slowed to molasses sortie was one of the worst fights I've ever experienced in gaming. It just made it even more glaring that the only difficulty of the initial fight is players not having the gear/frames to deal will swarming mobs while trying to DPS a boss. With that out the window all there is to rely on for challenge is making your movements happen in slow motion.

I do understand that there are limits because for some reason  even with ping restrictions WF just often doesn't have the responsiveness to allow for twitch reactions the way a single player might, but there's got to be a better standard. The Profit Taker is yet another example of using nothing but swarms of mobs and tons of AoE knockbacks to act as a challenge, and all it does is bore people who have the frames to ignore it, piss off the people who can't bring the frames they really enjoy, create toxicity such that no one wants to bring in inexperienced players, and scare others off from even trying.

The fights in this game fail so many of the gaming basic tests for good design that it becomes boggling. So many good concepts just gone to waste. The worst part is that I know the understanding is there. Bursas will wreck face if you try to take them on Rambo-style, especially the modified versions in the Index, but if you play the right way and move in behind them or have a Rhino stomp so someone else move into position and do the same then they can be countered effectively every time. The Razorback Armada starts with this premise, but then throws out stupid amounts of damage and effects everywhere that make it next to impossible to actually see what's going on. I seriously want to know what the deal is with DE and seizure-inducing light shows during boss fights. Razorbacks, Eid hunts, and  Plague Star look like a bad night at the discotheque...

So much potential just going to waste =(

Edit: To be fair, we've just been teased that yet another new system is on the way, and while that won't fix all the wasted content that sits ignored maybe it will show a path to better days to come. I guess we'll see.

Edited February 18, 2019 by True_Naeblis

[Xzorn]

A Level slider is not exactly what we need but it's good enough.

Problem I see is they will probably only let it go to some dumb number like lvl 40.

They should tie it to MR. If I can test against lvl 160 enemies in the Simulacrum then I should be able to jump into those levels.

Players say scaling is broken but never quite have a good argument on how. I often think this is because they're not used to cooperating with other team members which is what's required at those higher levels in order to "un-break" scaling. We have all the tools needed to deal with scaling. We can approach the problem in multiple ways. It just requires four players who care about what each other are bringing to the mission and play off each other's picks. Teamwork I think it's called.

I enjoy the idea of one revive. The game is far too forgiving but there also needs to be Risk Vs Reward and I have doubts that will ever happen.

[DrivaMain]

In my opinion, a level slider or stat slider will be rarely used by the players unless DE gives them an incentive to use them like better resource drops, no credits on rotation rewards, Radiant Relics, etc

I play Anthem aswell and I believe DE can learn a thing or two from Anthem’s difficulty and enemies like Scar Enforcer whose has a thick body armor but you can hit it’s fuel tank for increased damage thus forcing players to manuver around him. DE can implement this to a special unit so that they don’t instantly die to an Arca Plasmor head on.

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by DrivaMain

[Leyers_of_facade]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

A Level slider is not exactly what we need but it's good enough.

Problem I see is they will probably only let it go to some dumb number like lvl 40.

They should tie it to MR. If I can test against lvl 160 enemies in the Simulacrum then I should be able to jump into those levels.

Players say scaling is broken but never quite have a good argument on how. I often think this is because they're not used to cooperating with other team members which is what's required at those higher levels in order to "un-break" scaling. We have all the tools needed to deal with scaling. We can approach the problem in multiple ways. It just requires four players who care about what each other are bringing to the mission and play off each other's picks. Teamwork I think it's called.

I enjoy the idea of one revive. The game is far too forgiving but there also needs to be Risk Vs Reward and I have doubts that will ever happen.

Personally I do like arbitration for the one revive. It actually makes it worth-while to be focused in the game. In normal missions, I have 6 revives, that pretty much means I can doze off 5 times mid mission and still clear it at ease. But making it 1 revive entirely would heavily impact quite a few frames in the game, especially the frames that are squishy, as a slight mistake can easily kill them. For example, I don't mind taking my favourite frame: mirage (prime) to solo orb (done it a few times actually), but I won't pick her for arbitration even if she is on 300%.

Arcanes giving extra revives is a mistake, and its too late to correct that.

 

On the point of level slider, I don't see it as the solution to the issue, higher level enemies are simply just stronger bullet sponge, and the say ways to cheese them will exist. Removing these cheese aren't exactly the best solution either, as there is probably too many of them by now, and I can imagine the uproar if a whole bunch of "meta frames" were nerfed. 

 

15 hours ago, DerGreif2 said:

So first off: I played Anthem in the last few days (don’t kill me) and also Diablo 3. In Anthem I loved the challenge in hard mode. It’s so enjoyable that I would like to implement it in Warframe as well because we need some challenge ingame.

In my opinion a level slider would do nothing for Warframe because the scaling is broken. As an example: you can kill with a maxed pointblank mod and a hek a level 1 lancer and also a level 45 lancer in one shot. Maybe a bad example but you see where I coming from. 44 level difference but no effect for something that a new player can get in a day. But if you talk about level 90 to 100… that’s a huge deal. It goes from “you can oneshot them” to “they can oneshot you”. So because scaling is a problem there is in my opinion other things needed to make it a challenge. And yes: this is for getting a challenge. Not for new players or for people that are not ready. So just let me explain how the stages should be balanced. In that kind of difficulties it should be normal to have at least one support frame like trin or harrow to be able to survive. Bonus rewards are nice but nothing that you really need to have a good time. Also the following stages are just templates and just a direction where I want them to go. They also tackle our OPness with removal of pizza usages, seeing invisible frames and removal of energy and health orb drops so that we rely on our teammates or weapons to get energy or health back:

 

 

Normal:

-        Current state

-        No drop/ bonus

-        No effects on gameplay

 

 

Hard:

+25% XP for killing enemies, +25% more item drops, no credit and mod rewards in reward tables

-        Normal Enemies deal 50% more damage and have 50% more health

-        2x chance for eximus units to spawn

-        2x chance for Elite Units to spawn (Gunners etc)

-        Elite and Eximus units deal 50% more damage, have 50% more health and receive 25% less damage

-        Half the chance for energy orbs to drop

-        Half the chance for health orbs to drop

-        No usage of energy and health pizzas

-        Just 3 revives instead of 4

 

Extreme:

+50% XP for killing enemies, +50% more item drops, no credit and mod rewards in reward tables

-        Normal Enemies deal 75% more damage and have 75% more health

-        3x chance for eximus units to spawn

-        3x chance for Elite Units to spawn (Gunners etc)

-        Elite and Eximus units deal 50% more damage, have 50% more health and receive 50% less damage

-        No energy orb drops (not even with Nekros)

-        No health orb drop (not even with Nekros)

-        No usage of energy and health pizzas

-        Just 2 revives instead of 4

-        Eximus units can see invisible frames and prioritizes them

-        Eximus units are immune to stuns and knock downs

 

 

Master:

+100% XP for killing enemies, +100% more item drops, no credit and mod rewards in reward tables

-        Normal Enemies deal 125% more damage and have 125% more health

-        5x chance for eximus units to spawn

-        5x chance for Elite Units to spawn (Gunners etc)

-        Elite and Eximus units deal 50% more damage, have 50% more health and receive 75% less damage

-        No energy orb drops (not even with Nekros)

-        No health orb drop (not even with Nekros)

-        No usage of energy and health pizzas

-        Just 1 revive instead of 4

-        Eximus and Elite units can see invisible frames and prioritizes them

Eximus and Elite units are immune to stuns and knock downs

 

 

Even if you dont like some things: please post your suggestion how to make it better. Pls help me to make some great changes so that DE maybe could use some ideas out of this so that the people that want a challenge can get one without nerfing themselves.

 

Thank you

On the suggestions regarding energy orb and health orb, do take in mind that a frame called trinity exists. She can easily provide you both health and energy easily without any issues. She is already easily a core member of many squads. On the other hand, she doesn't need a(nother) nerf as she doesn't really do that much in addition, and nerfs on her capability on giving energy / health would put her in quite a bad position.

On the matter of eximus and elite unit being able to see invisible frame, I am kinda conflicted on that as several frames do kinda rely on stealth to survive and making them detectable would pretty much make them not viable to these modes.  

Immunity to stuns and knockdown is kinda nice, but there is also a lot of other cc that exists, for example: slow, blind, sleep... etc, granting them immunity to only some of the cc would not be efficient as players can just cheese them with the other cc, but a full cc immunity would make them effectively "boss-tier" enemies which probably isn't a good idea with a 5x spawn rate, these enemies can exist, but certainly not too common.

In addition, you might have missed out on frames that can pretty much straight-out face tank. We are talking about frames like inaros with adaptation, arcane guardian and grace. They would still to some extent, trivialize the suggestion you are giving.

Giving enemies more (effective) health and damage is only going to force more players to use cheese tactics, at least with the content now, most frames can still be used to complete the task albeit not as efficiently as the "meta squad". 

 

As mentioned by some above, I agree that what we need isn't really the scaling of the enemies we currently have, but a larger variety of ways the enemies can handle us. Arbitration drones was a decent thing imo for that reason (even if I don't like seeing them).

 

[Xzorn]

12 minutes ago, Leyers_of_facade said:

On the point of level slider, I don't see it as the solution to the issue, higher level enemies are simply just stronger bullet sponge, and the say ways to cheese them will exist. Removing these cheese aren't exactly the best solution either, as there is probably too many of them by now, and I can imagine the uproar if a whole bunch of "meta frames" were nerfed.

 

Increase stats matter. They allow enemies to perform the mechanics they're programmed with and it counters power creep which is a constant to Warframe. Not to mention the way buffs stack in this game. That's not to say new abilities and conditions shouldn't be added as they scale.

Ideally mixing both together would be the right path.

What OP is suggesting is simple Linear scaling with some conditions. It wouldn't work in Warframe mostly due to how our mitigation and damage stack. A frame gets one-shot but in the right group easily breaks 1 million eHP. That's where players claiming scaling is broken is a very unclear claim because anything one might claim is a problem can be removed with the right team comp but of course as I mentioned that assumes players work together which Warframe doesn't generally ask of it's players.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Enemies have no sense of mortality. No sense of urgency. No tactical awareness.  Until they do, levels won't matter. The will still be just lemmings.

Edited February 19, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Enemies have no sense of mortality. No sense of urgency. No tactical awareness.  Until they do, levels won't matter. The will still be just lemmings.

 

They do we just don't give them much of a chance to show it in the level ranges most play. Corpus are especially skittish. Osprey will try to dodge attacks and Grineer take cover. It's all very basic but there's been slow improvements over time. Some of the newer enemies like Nox have a very distinct fighting tactic.

I think letting Infested run on walls & ceilings would bring a whole new level to fighting them on it's own.

It comes back to how stats are just as important to AI. No point in improving the AI if the enemy hardly gets to move and you can only improve AI so much before it just gets really cheap. Esp in the number of enemies we fight. I would sure appreciate less but more impactful enemies like the old days myself.

[True_Naeblis]

The slider could go to 1 million, that wouldn't make the content suddenly fun. Bullet sponges only increase the difficulty to a degree in a way that's worthwhile, then it just turns things into a chore. Better design, better enemy variety and skills, and better mechanics will keep things interesting. Things like the Grineer taking cover and working as squads are a good start, but I agree with what was said earlier, that the behavior of enemies needs to vary a lot more between types and factions.

[DerGreif2]

I am glad to see that some people joined this thread. Thank you all.

Yes I know tgat Trin exist. My idea was to make it mandatory to have a support frame. In almost every other game it's common to use a support. I almost never have seen a trin except for low levels.

I also understand that weaken invis frame could make them irrelevant. I love playing Ivara but invis is almost God mode. It's a shame that there are no enemys that bypasses stealth.

And yes it is true that it will be always a way to cheese it but that's not the point. Even when you play "normal" frames without nukes or God mode you dont feel challenged. I just wish to change that.

At this points it's pretty clear that we are to strong because we can even deal with the highest level possible with ease.

I could make a thread in the future that changes his ultimate aka 4 work. I think its needed to balance the game. The 4 is often just to spammy and dint feel like adult. I would like such a mechanic like Baruuk has got all frames but that's another topic.

Thank you guys for commenting. It's really helpfull. Have you guys any idea how to implement a difficultly that is challenging?

[DerGreif2]

Also my notification are messed up so NOW I see all the comments. I know that this is not the solution. I know that there a a lot of flaws in it.

It's also clear that we need a new AI that is not so... stupid?

What i also hate is the talk about power fantasy because it's not a I win simulator. Yes we can be powerful but not so strong that we JUST CANT LOSE.

7 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

In my opinion, a level slider or stat slider will be rarely used by the players unless DE gives them an incentive to use them like better resource drops, no credits on rotation rewards, Radiant Relics, etc

I play Anthem aswell and I believe DE can learn a thing or two from Anthem’s difficulty and enemies like Scar Enforcer whose has a thick body armor but you can hit it’s fuel tank for increased damage thus forcing players to manuver around him. DE can implement this to a special unit so that they don’t instantly die to an Arca Plasmor head on.

 

Amen. I also want new enemys that have weak points. It's pretty cool have have outmaneuver the enemy to kill it.

 

8 hours ago, Xzorn said:

A Level slider is not exactly what we need but it's good enough.

Problem I see is they will probably only let it go to some dumb number like lvl 40.

They should tie it to MR. If I can test against lvl 160 enemies in the Simulacrum then I should be able to jump into those levels.

Players say scaling is broken but never quite have a good argument on how. I often think this is because they're not used to cooperating with other team members which is what's required at those higher levels in order to "un-break" scaling. We have all the tools needed to deal with scaling. We can approach the problem in multiple ways. It just requires four players who care about what each other are bringing to the mission and play off each other's picks. Teamwork I think it's called.

I enjoy the idea of one revive. The game is far too forgiving but there also needs to be Risk Vs Reward and I have doubts that will ever happen.

I also like high levels. But the scaling is broken in that way that you can do almost every enemy in the game with one shot of a Hek with a maxed point blank untill level 40 or 50. And then it gets funny. Low level enemys are to easy. The scaling need fixing. Even a Newby can kill a Sedna level enemy like an earth one. There is no increase in low level so 1 to 50 but then it starts getting extremely interesting from 70 to 120. Scalong is broken in that it makes the game to easy for the first 80 level and that is almost the hole game.

Edited February 19, 2019 by DerGreif2

[Xzorn]

32 minutes ago, DerGreif2 said:

I also like high levels. But the scaling is broken in that way that you can do almost every enemy in the game with one shot of a Hek with a maxed point blank untill level 40 or 50. And then it gets funny. Low level enemys are to easy. The scaling need fixing. Even a Newby can kill a Sedna level enemy like an earth one. There is no increase in low level so 1 to 50 but then it starts getting extremely interesting from 70 to 120. Scalong is broken in that it makes the game to easy for the first 80 level and that is almost the hole game.

 

That's the thing about scaling enemies. It's relative.

I mean a player can get into Sorties 2 weeks after starting. It's not "actual" high level and hasn't been in a very very long time. That's not meant to sound boasting or anything. It's legit criticism. We were doing lvl 100 enemies 5 years ago with like 19k DPS. Now we're doing 120k DPS. That's 5 years of Power Creep. Scaling enemies are used to combat that sorta thing and when done well they also increase the difficulty of the game. Enemies have to scale AND have new dangerous abilities.

I see a lot of post in players helping players that would lead me to believe the scaling for Starmap enemies is actually pretty decent. A lot of new players get a rude awakening in the old T4 Void section that shouldn't really exist ( RIP T3 Void Survival ). Yea, there's a big eHP gap between frames and it's gotten worse over time but on the other side "most" of the frames with low end eHP can do some crazy stuff.

I made a topic not long ago criticizing DE over their recent trend of immune enemies and eHP / DPS forced meta because those squishy frames rely heavily on their abilities and when you make enemies who ignore them completely you render that frame useless in that content.

[DerGreif2]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

That's the thing about scaling enemies. It's relative.

I mean a player can get into Sorties 2 weeks after starting. It's not "actual" high level and hasn't been in a very very long time. That's not meant to sound boasting or anything. It's legit criticism. We were doing lvl 100 enemies 5 years ago with like 19k DPS. Now we're doing 120k DPS. That's 5 years of Power Creep. Scaling enemies are used to combat that sorta thing and when done well they also increase the difficulty of the game. Enemies have to scale AND have new dangerous abilities.

I see a lot of post in players helping players that would lead me to believe the scaling for Starmap enemies is actually pretty decent. A lot of new players get a rude awakening in the old T4 Void section that shouldn't really exist ( RIP T3 Void Survival ). Yea, there's a big eHP gap between frames and it's gotten worse over time but on the other side "most" of the frames with low end eHP can do some crazy stuff.

I made a topic not long ago criticizing DE over their recent trend of immune enemies and eHP / DPS forced meta because those squishy frames rely heavily on their abilities and when you make enemies who ignore them completely you render that frame useless in that content.

Thats also a problem. I joined the game a half year ago (1000h now :P) so I dont remember the time before that. I have the feeling that the only good frames that are invisible, tanky or nukes. All other frames are "bad". Bad is relative because they can do the most content (but that dont mean much). Also the starchart is to ez. Its a grind game for a reason and you almost get everything without much effort. I just feel that the people are just to lazy to do something or try other option to archive the goal.

In my opinion DE needs to visit ALL frames and enemy again and balance the game from scratch. No more 90% damage reduction, no more infinite damage attacks, no more permanent invisible frames. I know that they dont do that but thats just how I feel. The game is to ez for me. I really love it but when you go into a mission and have to wait for 30 min to start having a little bit of a challenge or you just cant lose... its really is a problem.