Feedback regarding the inability to remain in melee "stance"

[ShadowHvo]

Hello fellow Tenno,

Like most of you, I too am a big fan of Warframe and most of the systems that it holds together. However, I do wish to write about my displeasure with the new "Phase 1" of Melee 3.0.

First of all, let me make it clear that I'm writing this as a person who primarily focuses on melee, and only ever uses guns as a means for support. That means that I use melee for nearly all my killing, since that is the way that I enjoy warframe's epic combat. In melee 2.0, I was able to enter a full "Melee Stance", in which I could fully focus on slashing, dashing and swinging my way through hordes of enemies.

But as of 3.0, that is no longer a possibility, since whenever I press left-mouse-buttom, I am now automatically forced to use my gun. Herein, I cannot use melee outside of the old "Quick" melee button, which is defaulted to E.

I am aware that there is a toggle that allows for continued use of melee with left-mouse-button, however, that still requires a "quick" melee to activate, and whenever I choose to glide or slide, it automatically removes me from the melee mode. That means that I have to do another "quick" melee in order to re-enter melee stance to continue striking with the left-mouse-button.

The fact that I am constantly forced to re-perform a quick melee whenever I wish to glide or slide, is a massive hinderance to my gameplay loop as a melee-focused tenno. I have no desires to aim down when I glide or slide with my melee, and yet it keeps switching to my gun, which prevents me from performing a myriad of cool moves in melee.

I was very dishearted to now know that I can no longer enjoy the combat as I once did, simply because I'm constantly forced into gunplay when I have no desire to be there. Perhaps this could be sovled by not bringing a gun at all, however, that would prevent me from using a bow or a handgun as a support for tricky situation, where melee cannot hit precise targets, such as security lasers weakpoints or pressure plates.

That is why I humbly suggest that you bring back a permanent melee option, where I can melee my way through enemies uninterrupted, and never forced to drag out a gun unless that I switch to it. The fact that I cannot use melee while gliding or sliding, which is two of Warframe's cool and core movesets, is gravely disappointing to me.

I was looking forward to melee 3.0 because it sounded cool, and the updated visuels and movesets are very awesome. However, the joy of it is unfortunately ruined by the constant intrusion of the gunplay.

The new system would be brilliant as an improvement to the quick melee. But I beg of you to re-release a way to enter a "full" melee mode, in which I can remain a melee combatant without ever switching to a gun, unless I explicitly exits the "full" melee mode.

My sincerest apologies if this feedback comes off as rambling, it is however heartfelt, since I now find myself unable to enjoy Warframe's epic combat.

Sincerely
ShadowHvo

[ShadowHvo]

4 hours ago, Walkampf said:

-Snip-

Why would I not use the most commenly preferred means of attack in any action-related game to attack?

I can no longer glide or slide and then initiate a melee attack without switching back to my gun, which forces me to reinitiate melee mode with a quick melee. That effectively adds the double amount of buttons needed in order to perform the same moveset as you once did.

This is not a problem on behalf of the player, but a problem on behalf of a changed system that has effectively removed a core function of combat and gameplay that I myself, as well as many others, have enjoyed for years.

The game no longer allows me to remain within melee mode indefinitely, which is a function that melee 2.0 easily allowed for by pressing F. However, this ease-to-use function is no longer available.

I am confused why you would say that this is an issue with attention? It is clearly at fault with the new system, and has nothing to do about attention. You cannot glide without switching back to your gun.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Tovon said:

However lets not leave out how some stances require you to use RMB which also puts you back into gun mode and makes the combo impossible to perform

This is currently one of my biggest issues.

I know I've mentioned it probably a bit too much, but the RMB of Primal Fury is the single greatest thing in the game imo. However using it now is... tricky.

Press the button too early and you pull out your gun and aim... Hold RMB slightly too long after the combo has ended and you pull out your gun and aim. I'm currently expending energy to use this weapon, why on earth would I want to put it away and pull out my gun?

Both of these are incredibly jarring, and I personally honestly believe that Melee 2.9 as a whole is a step back to melee gameplay, not a step forward. Perhaps 3.0 will fix a lot of the presented problems, I fully understand breaking eggs to make omelettes, just annoyed that I may be stuck with nothing but broken eggs for awhile.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

12 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

This is currently one of my biggest issues.

I know I've mentioned it probably a bit too much, but the RMB of Primal Fury is the single greatest thing in the game imo. However using it now is... tricky.

Press the button too early and you pull out your gun and aim... Hold RMB slightly too long after the combo has ended and you pull out your gun and aim. I'm currently expending energy to use this weapon, why on earth would I want to put it away and pull out my gun?

Both of these are incredibly jarring, and I personally honestly believe that Melee 2.9 as a whole is a step back to melee gameplay, not a step forward. Perhaps 3.0 will fix a lot of the presented problems, I fully understand breaking eggs to make omelettes, just annoyed that I may be stuck with nothing but broken eggs for awhile.

I have this same problem with Tempo Royal. I love the block combo on Tempo Royal, since it has both mobility and ragdoll, but pulling it off is far more difficult than before.

There's also the problem that gunblades/glaives, now that they have crits on charge attacks and build combo with charge attacks, would really like to be used for that, but you can't aim them (when you could before). The only exception being dual-wield glaive setups.

I agree with OP that we should have a button that puts us in melee-only mode, probably as a toggle. That way, we can block combo/aim with gunblades and glaives/aim-glide and not switch to guns.

[Walkampf]

4 hours ago, Tovon said:

However lets not leave out how some stances require you to use RMB which also puts you back into gun mode and makes the combo impossible to perform

You can still perform RMB combos just as before.

If you take @DeMonkeys example of Wukongs Primal Fury,

then holding RMB all the time will perform the Rolling Boulder Rush combo, just as before.

[--F--NerevarCM]

 

26 minutes ago, Tovon said:

^ Excessively unhelpful reply which apparently doesn't understand the words it was trying to read.

However lets not leave out how some stances require you to use RMB which also puts you back into gun mode and makes the combo impossible to perform. I agree with your post, there should be some way to toggle full melee mode without the unwanted intrusions of guns.

Just hoid RMB instead of pressing it during a single moment in the entire combo. That way you can do it reliably every time. I know because I use Scindo Prime and Galatine Prime with TR all the time.

Its not impossible.

 

26 minutes ago, ShadowHvo said:

I can no longer glide or slide and then initiate a melee attack without switching back to my gun, which forces me to reinitiate melee mode with a quick melee. That effectively adds the double amount of buttons needed in order to perform the same moveset as you once did.

You can slide. And is so horrible to see your gun during the glide and then continue your melee attacks? And it doesnt add more buttons.

Before: While in melee mode, 1- Jump  2- Aimglide with melee  3- attack on the ground

Now: 1- Jump with melee 2- Aimglide with gun 3- attack on the ground with melee

Only difference? You see your gun during aim glide.

[DeMonkey]

12 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Just hoid RMB instead of pressing it during a single moment in the entire combo. That way you can do it reliably every time.

I'm guessing this must be a change in one of the recent hotfixes.

Spoiler

 

13 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

And is so horrible to see your gun during the glide and then continue your melee attacks?

Tbh, my answer to this is yes. Dedicated melee felt more fluid. You'd slide with melee, you'd glide with melee, everything would be done with your melee weapon. Now you randomly pull your gun out occasionally for... no reason?

[PopGligor]

1 hour ago, Tovon said:

^ Excessively unhelpful reply which apparently doesn't understand the words it was trying to read.

However lets not leave out how some stances require you to use RMB which also puts you back into gun mode and makes the combo impossible to perform. I agree with your post, there should be some way to toggle full melee mode without the unwanted intrusions of guns.

Block combos still work, you just have to hold RMB after you begin the combo. To the best of my knowledge, there is no combo that begins with a block.

In the settings, under controls there is a setting addressing this exact thread - it's called "melee with fire weapon input"

I personally really like this change because it does what it set out to do. Initially I thought some parts didn't work - like zaw exodias. Then I... you know, learned to play. My favorite thing now is to slam attack enemies in the air and then shooting them with a shotgun. It's really fun.

[Vox_Preliator]

24 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

-snip-

32 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

-snip-

I'm starting to think that every player is getting different changes with every patch, because holding RMB after starting the combo has worked for me since the very first moment.  Yet I was having no issue dong charge attacks until they made it easier to do charge attacks, and now any shot interrupts my Redeemer.

So I'm pretty sure you're both right, especially if Primal Fury works fundamentally differently from regular melee. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Vox_Preliator

[DeMonkey]

43 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

because holding RMB after starting the combo has worked for me since the very first moment

It's always worked for me, my issue isn't with it not working, just how jarring it can be when you press it a bit too early and aim instead of attacking, or you held it a bit too long after the combo finished and you're back to aiming again.

If that's changed, then grand, if not then I really don't like it. Back in Melee 2.0 I spent the entire time running around with RMB held down, I'd happily block everything, soar across the sky and pull off my favourite combo with ease. I recognise that in some respects I just need to get used to this new system, but I can't shake the feeling that it... just doesn't feel great.

Edited March 16, 2019 by DeMonkey

[DoomFruit]

18 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

This is wrong, the new system is more fuid, since it takes less time to swap weapons, it gives more control for slam attacks, you can combo-canel out of animations.

Those are objective improvments.

And the old system is objectively more fluid for melee strikes while running with a polearm (staves too, I believe). Quick melee never once got in the way of your movement, while stance melee has this stupid tendency to either halt you in your tracks or fling you off in some other direction.

Full control over your own mobility at all times is objectively better than the game taking control away from you at points.

[Akahari]

the problem being the second you attempt to use a "quick" attack more than once, you are immediately thrown into a combo lock, which as others have pointed out throws you all over the place but also means on higher leveled enemies you will end up taking more damage than you are dishing out. plus before if you were mining etc, you could defend yourself and go back to what you were doing, now you have to re-equip and start all over again. i dont see why the mechanics had to get $&*^ed with, they were awesome before now they suck and melee is rickrolled, this game breaking rubbish is why all the vets are leaving the game.

[birdobash]

Easy fixes to this could be a hotkey that toggles between locking melee only or melee and gunplay quickswitch (the z key is free) or they make the block combo key something that ISN'T the right click. Tbh the former would probably be better in practice.

[Talvu]

15 minutes ago, birdobash said:

Easy fixes to this could be a hotkey that toggles between locking melee only or melee and gunplay quickswitch (the z key is free) or they make the block combo key something that ISN'T the right click. Tbh the former would probably be better in practice.

easier fix would be to revert the changes made and then go forward actually using the feedback of those who are affected the most by the changes

[birdobash]

3 minutes ago, Talvu said:

easier fix would be to revert the changes made and then go forward actually using the feedback of those who are affected the most by the changes

No, the changes are in the right step, but because the changes haven't been all rolled out at once half of the new stuff is butting heads with the old stuff, such as still having hold/pause/block combos. Having to commit to melee only or gunplay only from the old system doesn't fit properly in a game like this.

Right now we have clashing of old clunky combos interfering with the sleeker gun/sword switch, which gives the illusion that the switching is clunky, when it's actually just the bad combos.

Edited March 16, 2019 by birdobash

[Talvu]

16 minutes ago, birdobash said:

No, the changes are in the right step, but because the changes haven't been all rolled out at once half of the new stuff is butting heads with the old stuff, such as still having hold/pause/block combos. Having to commit to melee only or gunplay only from the old system doesn't fit properly in a game like this.

Right now we have clashing of old clunky combos interfering with the sleeker gun/sword switch, which gives the illusion that the switching is clunky, when it's actually just the bad combos.

There is a saying that goes; If it aint broke, don't fix it.

These changes fix nothing, improve nothing, and break too many well established aspects of the dynamics of melee combat. The real truth is that basically DE is saying screw what the playerbase wants and is changing things for the sake of just changing them, which is never a good idea regardless of how successful any company has ever been.

Quick melee had its place as a quick means of dispatching enemies real close up without having to swap weapons, while swapping to actual melee allowed the player to focus on melee combat.

Autoblock removes agency from a player's decisions and breaks builds, blocked attacks still drain energy when channeling and the main benefit of aimgliding with a melee weapon, no zoom, is gone.

Also there the whole aspect of DE going back on their words on how they would roll this S#&$ out. Instead of only affecting one weapon class with the full list of changes they originally stated they would, they broke melee in its entirety.

DE may want to make combat more spectacular and fluid, but I really think that they should stop. If I wanted to play DMC or Bayonetta I'd go and play those instead because those games are built from the ground up with that playstyle and mechanic in mind.

[DoomFruit]

11 hours ago, birdobash said:

No, the changes are in the right step, but because the changes haven't been all rolled out at once half of the new stuff is butting heads with the old stuff, such as still having hold/pause/block combos. Having to commit to melee only or gunplay only from the old system doesn't fit properly in a game like this.

Right now we have clashing of old clunky combos interfering with the sleeker gun/sword switch, which gives the illusion that the switching is clunky, when it's actually just the bad combos.

If it's not done, it shouldn't have been released. Simple as that.

[Andele3025]

Once upon a time, there used to be the following keybinds: Switch Weapon, Switch Gun, Equip Melee.

But then everything changed when the melee 2.99997 attacked, killing the "Equip Melee" keybind while making gun-blade switch speed almost instant (and we know it aint truly instant/each weapon is still its own "state" instead of there no longer being states because a variety of factors from gear usage to loading into OV to Drahk Masters hitting the gun you are on will cause you to swap to nothing/empty hands)

[Steel_Rook]

Something worth remembering with the new melee system is that its main goal is to create a hybrid melee/firearm system of play. Removing the weapon switch delay and designating separate keys for guns and melee effectively means that both weapons are "equipped" at the same time regardless of which one is visually represented on your person. People who exclusively used melee weapons are going to see the most significant change, because the new system "wants" you to mix melee and guns rather than stick to just one or the other.

[Insizer]

23 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Tbh, my answer to this is yes. Dedicated melee felt more fluid. You'd slide with melee, you'd glide with melee, everything would be done with your melee weapon. Now you randomly pull your gun out occasionally for... no reason?

As much as I hate the RMB combo of Wukong I agree.  It feels and looks weird.  You pull out Iron Stave whack a few enemies (while trying to use the other combos that are nearly impossible to initiate), jump into crowd (great for RMB combo), press and hold RMB which puts away your staff (while still burning energy) and pulls out your gun, then melee (making your gun vanish) and do the rest of the combo. 

You see the same with the RMB combos of any weapon it looks sloppy imo.

I understand the intent of RMB to gun, because it makes sense.  You shouldn't have to LMB to swap gun while shooting, and pressing LMB once to swap back to gun and pressing it again to fire could be annoying.  But it just... feels weird and looks weirder like this.

[birdobash]

9 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

If it's not done, it shouldn't have been released. Simple as that.

Dude, literally EVERY PC update they release is in an unfinished state, I personally don't like that we're their testing ground, but that's how it is and that's how it's always been. Unless you want the game to NEVER update, then you're never gonna get what you want.

[DoomFruit]

7 minutes ago, birdobash said:

Dude, literally EVERY PC update they release is in an unfinished state, I personally don't like that we're their testing ground, but that's how it is and that's how it's always been. Unless you want the game to NEVER update, then you're never gonna get what you want.

If their updates break the game, then yes I'd rather it were never updated. There's a very good reason why "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a VERY old saying.

[Steel_Rook]

4 hours ago, Insizer said:

As much as I hate the RMB combo of Wukong I agree.  It feels and looks weird.  You pull out Iron Stave whack a few enemies (while trying to use the other combos that are nearly impossible to initiate), jump into crowd (great for RMB combo), press and hold RMB which puts away your staff (while still burning energy) and pulls out your gun, then melee (making your gun vanish) and do the rest of the combo. 

The combo system has always been clumsy, but it's especially so currently. As far as I'm aware, DE intend to either do away with combos or redesign them drastically which might solve that particular issue. At time of writing, however, we're playing what amounts to a holdover melee system that they probably should have thought through a little bit more.