Don't Repeat Mistakes with Melee 3.0

[moodster]

why add juggling? because it's COOL and FUN... and um... why not? You don't have to like it, you also won't have to use it... I don't see why it's a problem for you...

[Steel_Rook]

As I said elsewhere, juggling could work using predominantly existing Warframe mechanics. My proposal would be to borrow from Bullet Storp, reuse existing melee knock-up/ragdoll mechanics and simply slow down affected enemies as they tumble through the air. Combine this with Archwing-style aimed melee attacks, and you have a decent juggle system. Ground slam to knock enemies up in the air, then either shoot them as they tumble in slow motion or jump between them and cut them to pieces. Bit of a condensed summary, but there's a full suggestion in the linked thread if you're interesting.

The long and short of it is "juggling" can work as long as you don't require the player to be actively locked with the juggled enemy for the duration of the juggle. Instead, let the player knock multiple enemies up in the air, then either deal with them via weapon of choice or not deal with them at all. Currently, the easiest way to cover distance and engage in melee is the new directed ground slam, so that seems like a good place to put this mechanic.

[MirageKnight]

6 hours ago, bubbabenali said:

That game is a flop

Citation needed.

[DoomFruit]

On 2019-04-06 at 4:56 PM, Mach25 said:

Getting back on topic, how do we effect this "proper" change to melee, i.e. correct the current system and bring it to its "proper" form, seeing as how our previous foray basing it off of DmC conflicts with our aforementioned concepts? We're going make combat fast, smooth and snappy - this is how we would achieve our goal of "space ninja" in regards to melee.

Honestly? Bring back the old system of quick melee (with its own animations) and wielded melee, with the user having to explicitly press a dedicated button (combination) to switch to it. Also, either put in an option for autoblock or remove it entirely.

Quick melee *was* fast, smooth and snappy. I could sword something instantly without breaking stride, I could dance around an enemy at full speed in any direction while swinging, and the sword never once got in the way of syndicate procs filling/draining, alt-firing my Corinth or automatic reload of empty magazines. I'd also not have the problem of enemy gunfire interrupting my redeemer or glaive ranged attacks.

While stances are by far my biggest cause of hatred towards this current system (no DE, "easier access to stances" is not a benefit - it's a punishment. 99% of my kills are with my Tonbo or Lesion and I went to great lengths to avoid stanced melee), my gun being forced out of my hand is also a huge cause of annoyance. With the possible exception of aimed slams (more control over attack direction = good, enemies drifting up into the sky before they're dead = bad), every single other change with the current melee system has been a flat downgrade for me.

Dedicated melee users would benefit from not having their sword put away when they wanted to aimglide, being able to block or not block as desired and also from not randomly losing the benefits of exalted melee weapons (valkyr suffers the most, or so I've heard).

EDIT: the only situation in which the current system would work is in mid-2013 release Warframe, where enemies were fewer in number (except for the Infested, but that's fine - they're supposed to be a swarm faction), tougher and we didn't have PFury or Berserker (or maxed out Volt Speed, or Warcry). Back then, it was actually worth spending a little more time on one enemy and combos which involve timing changes would have been practical to use.

Edited April 9, 2019 by DoomFruit

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Citation needed.

He has none, DMCV sold better than most (any? not sure of the exact numbers) of its predecessors, even Gamefaqs likes it and that place likes nothing.

[DiabolusUrsus]

7 hours ago, moodster said:

why add juggling? because it's COOL and FUN... and um... why not? You don't have to like it, you also won't have to use it... I don't see why it's a problem for you...

Because, as I clearly explained, it eats up devtime and delays actually useful features like the stance reworks and balance pass.

I clearly acknowledged that juggling is cool and would be fun, but until the game balance is adjusted only a handful of enemies will actually be juggleable due to most dying in 1-2 hits or otherwise being immune (bosses).

It's absolutely a problem for me when a useless feature delays useful features. Which is why I said either do the useful stuff FIRST or put in the time to make juggling actually useful. Not rocket science.

8 hours ago, (PS4)Tomplexthis said:

the dialogue felt so lame

What game in the series didn't have lame dialogue...?

7 hours ago, AshenHaze said:

THEN YOU MUST FIGHT BIGGER ENEMIES AND JUGGLE THEM MOOOORE.

Glad you're excited, buddy. Wish I could share that feeling.

[DiabolusUrsus]

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

As I said elsewhere, juggling could work using predominantly existing Warframe mechanics. My proposal would be to borrow from Bullet Storp, reuse existing melee knock-up/ragdoll mechanics and simply slow down affected enemies as they tumble through the air.

Sure, sounds good. The viability/possibility of launchers isn't exactly the issue, though.

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Combine this with Archwing-style aimed melee attacks, and you have a decent juggle system.

Gods, no. Not without massive improvements, anyway.

Archwing melee is clunky and unresponsive; I loathe it with a passion. The upcoming in-air combos really should be enough - we'd just need a gravity suspension/reduction while executing them.

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Ground slam to knock enemies up in the air, then either shoot them as they tumble in slow motion or jump between them and cut them to pieces. Bit of a condensed summary, but there's a full suggestion in the linked thread if you're interesting.

The long and short of it is "juggling" can work as long as you don't require the player to be actively locked with the juggled enemy for the duration of the juggle. Instead, let the player knock multiple enemies up in the air, then either deal with them via weapon of choice or not deal with them at all. Currently, the easiest way to cover distance and engage in melee is the new directed ground slam, so that seems like a good place to put this mechanic.

I'm not sure about this. It sounds rather like a free universal Rhino Stomp, though ostensibly with less range and up-front damage.

Ground slam as a launcher? Sure. Juggling via gunfire? Sure. Not sold on the slow motion or AW melee, though.

[MirageKnight]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

He has none,

Exactly. Just trying to masquerade their own opinion as fact.

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

DMCV sold better than most (any? not sure of the exact numbers) of its predecessors, even Gamefaqs likes it and that place likes nothing.

THIS. TBH, DMC hasn't been something I've REALLY wanted to play (not my kind of game) but I will say that what I've seen of DMC 4 and 5 really impressed me in terms of execution and polish...and honestly 5 looks hella fun.

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Because, as I clearly explained, it eats up devtime and delays actually useful features like the stance reworks and balance pass.

I clearly acknowledged that juggling is cool and would be fun, but until the game balance is adjusted only a handful of enemies will actually be juggleable due to most dying in 1-2 hits or otherwise being immune (bosses).

It's absolutely a problem for me when a useless feature delays useful features. Which is why I said either do the useful stuff FIRST or put in the time to make juggling actually useful. Not rocket science.

Dear God THIS. With all the other half-baked features that Warframe's had added to it just because the devs thought it would be cool or because kids liked that sort of thing at the time, Warframe should be called Memeframe...

[Chaemyerelis]

If they're going to grab inspiration from any melee system I'd hope it'd be Dark Souls 3.

[(PSN)solartorch81]

I just hope melee 3.0 will not become like k-drive. Beautiful to look at but totally unless. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

9 hours ago, Chaemyerelis said:

If they're going to grab inspiration from any melee system I'd hope it'd be Dark Souls 3.

How so? I think DS's status proc system is a nice non-RNG method of applying them, but I wouldn't want to see such limited movesets or pacing.

9 hours ago, (PS4)solartorch81 said:

I just hope melee 3.0 will not become like k-drive. Beautiful to look at but totally unless. 

Agreed.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Quote

-Snip-

It's really not in this case.

First, I have explained why juggling affects me negatively: it delays the features of melee 3.0 that will actually have a meaningful impact on the game.

Second, I am not saying that juggling must never be added. Only that:

a) it should be done after the more useful parts of melee 3.0, or

b) the devs should put in the time and effort needed to make it actually useful beyond simply looking cool.

Is your sense of empathy so stunted that what I said somehow doesn't make logical sense to you?

[MJ12]

18 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

It's really not in this case.

First, I have explained why juggling affects me negatively: it delays the features of melee 3.0 that will actually have a meaningful impact on the game.

Second, I am not saying that juggling must never be added. Only that:

a) it should be done after the more useful parts of melee 3.0, or

b) the devs should put in the time and effort needed to make it actually useful beyond simply looking cool.

Is your sense of empathy so stunted that what I said somehow doesn't make logical sense to you?

That said, I'm wondering how much effort adding juggling actually takes.

It could be that doing so is actually a really low amount of effort, at which point I can see the devs going 'it's cool and low-effort even if it's not super useful, why not' as an argument for adding it. I appreciate the differing animations for directional dodges while aiming, despite the fact that it has no gameplay benefit. Looking cool is a benefit in and of itself.

Midair melee combos are useful to allow for melee attacking Ospreys and other flying enemies, so they serve a purpose. It could be, in theory, that juggling is just a minor tweak to how gravity works and thus it's just a ribbon on a useful tool rather than a feature that DE is spending extensive amounts of time to perfect, far out of line of its actual expected use.

[moodster]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

It's really not in this case.

First, I have explained why juggling affects me negatively: it delays the features of melee 3.0 that will actually have a meaningful impact on the game.

Second, I am not saying that juggling must never be added. Only that:

a) it should be done after the more useful parts of melee 3.0, or

b) the devs should put in the time and effort needed to make it actually useful beyond simply looking cool.

Is your sense of empathy so stunted that what I said somehow doesn't make logical sense to you?

It really is... Someone briefly mentions the idea of juggling in a devstream and you come up with some elaborate idea on who is working on what and how exactly it "negatively affects you" with little more than assumptions. I'm not sure how this has devolved into this nonsense... I don't really care either way about juggling, but you're making it out to be a much bigger deal than it is. I'm not exactly sure how it would even work in Warframe, but I'm also not about to go berating devs who have been doing this for 6+ years over speculation. For all we know, when he says "juggling" he could be talking about, and probably is talking about, the already demonstrated gameplay of air melee combos... 

Empathy has nothing to do with it... I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree and I think you're blowing it waaay out of proportion (both, what I said and what was said during the dev stream). Just because you explain your opinion doesn't make it objectively true. I understand you think you are being unbiased and objective, but it is clear you just don't want juggling, which is fine... but just settle down little fella, it's going to be alright. Even if juggling did delay melee 3.0 It's not the end for Warframe, and wouldn't hurt my feelings in the slightest. 

They've already said, written, and demonstrated that melee 3.0 will be a simplification of the stance combos. Basically everything that is being discussed here has already been put out by the devs... Now it's nothing more than people talking about DMC... 

Edited April 9, 2019 by moodster

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Two things need to heppen for melee 3.0 to work in my book and they are simple. Damage needs to be buffed by 3X for every melee weapon as that is the standard anyone with a decent build is used to. And range mods need to stay as they are as well as differences in weapons of each archtype having varied ranges unless they are all brought up to the highest range in that archtype. Anything else that happens Does not concern me personally.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

That said, I'm wondering how much effort adding juggling actually takes.

It could be that doing so is actually a really low amount of effort, at which point I can see the devs going 'it's cool and low-effort even if it's not super useful, why not' as an argument for adding it. I appreciate the differing animations for directional dodges while aiming, despite the fact that it has no gameplay benefit. Looking cool is a benefit in and of itself.

That's certainly possible, and I definitely agree that looking cool is a benefit. If it's a quick and easy addition I have no complaints. However...

Quote

Midair melee combos are useful to allow for melee attacking Ospreys and other flying enemies, so they serve a purpose. It could be, in theory, that juggling is just a minor tweak to how gravity works and thus it's just a ribbon on a useful tool rather than a feature that DE is spending extensive amounts of time to perfect, far out of line of its actual expected use.

Warframe's ragdolls have never been particularly stable or consistent, and I am find it difficult to believe that something like juggling would take less effort to implement than something like instant-switching, which took quite some time between announcement and implementation.

Of course, I realize that I am completely ignorant about the inner workings of the game code, but the several other factors also concern me:

• We have seen no meaningful progress on any stance reworks in quite some time, and that's even with the promise of separate "batches" of released stances as they become ready. That tells me not even 1 grip type is finished.
• DE broke and released Tatsu with a Melee 2.0 stance, when their excuse for delaying it was that it should use the Melee 3.0 system from the beginning. That tells me that someone decided it would be better to do redundant work on a stance than continue delaying it.
• DE has a track record of copying from popular/successful games without really considering how and why those games do well. Juggling reeks of a "because it's hip" decision without being given any additional details or rationale.

If I were new here I would probably be more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt... But I'm not, so I have my sneaking suspicions.

[Steel_Rook]

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Gods, no. Not without massive improvements, anyway. Archwing melee is clunky and unresponsive; I loathe it with a passion. The upcoming in-air combos really should be enough - we'd just need a gravity suspension/reduction while executing them.

Archwing melee is clunky and unresponsive because all of the Archwing weapons are very slow and their combos are spaced out with idle padding. Rather, what I'm proposing is reusing the "snap-to-target" system which shifts your Warframe in space to the target that you're aiming while executing your intended attack. It shouldn't affect the pace or responsiveness of melee attacks, merely act to close distance and prevent "whiffs" where the enemy either is or moves just out of melee range during your attack animation. Should make it easier to attack fleeing targets, as well. As I said in the thread, I'd liken it to the Arkham combat system, where your character is able to automatically close distance (within some range limit) before delivering a melee attack.

I'd personally prefer to not have an anti-grav/hover system built into the player's aerial melee attacks as we already have Aim Glide, which can (and should) be re-purposed for more general gliding and hovering. In fact, aerial combat is why I proposed the auto-target melee attacks, as games built around those have been able to do some pretty interesting things with it. While 2D, both "Dust: An Elysian Tale" and "Ori and the Blind Forest" have used similar systems to keep the player almost perpetually airborne. Dash to an enemy, reset your double jump, dash to another enemy, reset your double jump, repeat. Ori in particular has a few instances where the ground is literally lava and the player is expected to jump between enemies and their projectiles. While I wouldn't expect aerial manoeuvrability to quite that extent, having a way to dash to a nearby enemy while already airborne is a basic requirement, in my opinion. Without it, you're both limited to fighting solely whatever you lifted up with you and given a much harder time actually landing air-to-air melee strikes.

I'd argue that one of the biggest problems in trying to melee predominantly ranged enemies is closing distance on a small scale. Bullet Jumps and Ground Slams work well on 10+ meter scale, but even they are too slow and imprecise once you're within 3-4 meter range. At that range, you have three system-wide options. Either you let the player swing from out of range and miss, you let the player mash buttons and run around via normal movement controls, or you let attacks themselves close distance. As I'm generally not a fan of torso-only melee attacks (especially for heavy weapons), I'd personally hope for the third approach.

 

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I'm not sure about this. It sounds rather like a free universal Rhino Stomp, though ostensibly with less range and up-front damage. Ground slam as a launcher? Sure. Juggling via gunfire? Sure. Not sold on the slow motion or AW melee, though.

It's definitely not a perfect approach, but it's the only one I can think of that doesn't anchor the player to the enemy being juggled. I can tell you right no that any melee system which locks you to a single ability for extended periods of time is going to be a non-starter. People already complain about combos having a negligible pause between strikes, so I don't see them ever accepting DMC-style lock-on air juggling. Consequently, the only kind of Juggling I can see as acceptable is something passive, which can take effect for some period of time after being applied. A player can then choose to capitalise on the Juggle, or redirect and do something else. But yes, it does boil down to a universal Rhino Stomp with lesser potency.

Without a mid-air slowdown, I find it's simply too difficult to actually capitalise on the aerial component of a Ground Slam's ragdoll effect. Enemies simply fall back down too fast and move too fast through the air. As I said in the thread, that's not a showstopper for people with particularly fast reflexes, but I personally find it impractical to exploit on a larger scale. Not enough time exists to shoot enemies out of the air reliably, let alone jump up and actually hit them. The only time I've had a reliably good time shooting ragdolled enemies out of the air has been on Low Gravity Nightmare missions, explicitly due to the higher arc and slower descent that low gravity produces. I obviously don't want low gravity all the time in all missions, but some kind of low gravity like effect for knocked-up enemies is what I feel is necessary to make the mechanic practical for your average player.

 

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I am not saying that juggling must never be added. Only that it should be done after the more useful parts of melee 3.0, or the devs should put in the time and effort needed to make it actually useful beyond simply looking cool.

While I realise this wasn't directed at me, I still wanted to say: Fair enough. Juggling in general is interesting to discuss in a theoretical sense, but I personally don't believe the game necessarily needs it. Warframe is a predominantly fast-paced shooter which doesn't benefit from lock-on mechanics, multi-step interactions and static combat. In fact, these general rules is why I proposed the "universal Rhino stomp" and "Archmelee auto-target" systems. I was looking for the most hands-off, non-binding implementation I could think of which still qualified as "Juggling," and there really isn't a lot of wiggle room under those constraints.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, moodster said:

It really is... Someone briefly mentions the idea of juggling in a devstream and you come up with some elaborate idea on who is working on what and how exactly it "negatively affects you" with little more than assumptions.

You seem to be mistaking my feedback as an assertion of fact, when it is not. I logically explained my concerns, and how they could be addressed.

It goes without saying that if my concerns don't apply - for example, if juggling is quick and easy to implement or if the devs are already planning to rebalance the game to make it useful - then we're all good.

1 hour ago, moodster said:

I'm not sure how this has devolved into this nonsense... I don't really care either way about juggling, but you're making it out to be a much bigger deal than it is. I'm not exactly sure how it would even work in Warframe, but I'm also not about to go berating devs who have been doing this for 6+ years over speculation. For all we know, when he says "juggling" he could be talking about, and probably is talking about, the already demonstrated gameplay of air melee combos... 

That's an awful lot of assumptions, buddy. And unlike mine, yours are based on very little evidence.

Take your "6+ years" point. Sure, the devs have been doing what they do for 6+ years. That being 6+ years of adding mostly useless features neglected for months or years before the devs actually come back to fix them up.

1 hour ago, moodster said:

Empathy has nothing to do with it... I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree and I think you're blowing it waaay out of proportion (both, what I said and what was said during the dev stream). Just because you explain your opinion doesn't make it objectively true. I understand you think you are being unbiased and objective,

Slow down. That is not at all what I said. I said I gave you valid reasons as to how juggling would negatively affect me. What you said was:

2 hours ago, moodster said:

valid is subjective.

Which is patently false. A statement is either logically valid, or it isn't.

1 hour ago, moodster said:

but it is clear you just don't want juggling, which is fine...

Are you illiterate?

1 hour ago, moodster said:

but just settle down little fella, it's going to be alright. Even if juggling did delay melee 3.0 It's not the end for Warframe, and wouldn't hurt my feelings in the slightest.

I never said it would be the end of Warframe.

And what makes you think your feelings are more important than anyone else's in this discussion? Seems I was spot-on regarding your capacity for empathy.

1 hour ago, moodster said:

They've already said, written, and demonstrated that melee 3.0 will be a simplification of the stance combos. Basically everything that is being discussed here has already been put out by the devs... Now it's nothing more than people talking about DMC... 

Your reading comprehension is already suspect, so I'm not going to bother trying to decipher how you came to this reductive conclusion.

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Archwing melee is clunky and unresponsive because all of the Archwing weapons are very slow and their combos are spaced out with idle padding. Rather, what I'm proposing is reusing the "snap-to-target" system which shifts your Warframe in space to the target that you're aiming while executing your intended attack. It shouldn't affect the pace or responsiveness of melee attacks, merely act to close distance and prevent "whiffs" where the enemy either is or moves just out of melee range during your attack animation. Should make it easier to attack fleeing targets, as well. As I said in the thread, I'd liken it to the Arkham combat system, where your character is able to automatically close distance (within some range limit) before delivering a melee attack.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that having faster attack speeds with no excessive delays between attacks would help somewhat, but I still do not want to see anything even remotely resembling Arkham combat.

The biggest problem I have with it is the relative unreliability of singling out a specific target within large groups. I haven't played the Arkham games, but I have played Shadow of Mordor (which I am told is more or less identical) and I regularly found myself annoyed at the difficulty of consistently attacking specific high-value targets. The biggest problem I have with AW melee beyond its unresponsiveness is its ambiguous target selection, so I can't see that working out well.

Quote

I'd personally prefer to not have an anti-grav/hover system built into the player's aerial melee attacks as we already have Aim Glide, which can (and should) be re-purposed for more general gliding and hovering. In fact, aerial combat is why I proposed the auto-target melee attacks, as games built around those have been able to do some pretty interesting things with it. While 2D, both "Dust: An Elysian Tale" and "Ori and the Blind Forest" have used similar systems to keep the player almost perpetually airborne. Dash to an enemy, reset your double jump, dash to another enemy, reset your double jump, repeat. Ori in particular has a few instances where the ground is literally lava and the player is expected to jump between enemies and their projectiles. While I wouldn't expect aerial manoeuvrability to quite that extent, having a way to dash to a nearby enemy while already airborne is a basic requirement, in my opinion. Without it, you're both limited to fighting solely whatever you lifted up with you and given a much harder time actually landing air-to-air melee strikes.

It could just be me, but I don't have any issues with landing air-to-air strikes as it already is. This is part of why I want to see melee attacks more or less divorced from movement animations; I would want the combo to execute the same way whether midair or grounded, aim-gliding or free-falling.

Obviously this would require some variation for gap closers, slams, dashes, etc., but for the basic combo string at least it would be nice to have.

Quote

I'd argue that one of the biggest problems in trying to melee predominantly ranged enemies is closing distance on a small scale. Bullet Jumps and Ground Slams work well on 10+ meter scale, but even they are too slow and imprecise once you're within 3-4 meter range. At that range, you have three system-wide options. Either you let the player swing from out of range and miss, you let the player mash buttons and run around via normal movement controls, or you let attacks themselves close distance. As I'm generally not a fan of torso-only melee attacks (especially for heavy weapons), I'd personally hope for the third approach.

To be clear, if an attack needs to use full-body animations for effect I am fine with that provided it doesn't restrict movement.

If you want a wind-up swing for something like a Galatine, then have it dash forward a distance based on the player's movement speed if the player holds W during the wind-up. If you want a flip/twirl/what have you, just make sure it doesn't noticeably root the player in place.

I don't particularly care how running/sprinting around is animated as long as the movement sum stays mostly the same. And I absolutely positively do not want to venture into soft-lock territory.

Quote

It's definitely not a perfect approach, but it's the only one I can think of that doesn't anchor the player to the enemy being juggled. I can tell you right no that any melee system which locks you to a single ability for extended periods of time is going to be a non-starter. Consequently, the only kind of Juggling I can see as acceptable is something passive, which can take effect for some period of time after being applied. A player can then choose to capitalise on the Juggle, or redirect and do something else. But yes, it does boil down to a universal Rhino Stomp with lesser potency.

Without a mid-air slowdown, I find it's simply too difficult to actually capitalise on the aerial component of a Ground Slam's ragdoll effect. Enemies simply fall back down too fast and move too fast through the air. As I said in the thread, that's not a showstopper for people with particularly fast reflexes, but I personally find it impractical to exploit on a larger scale. Not enough time exists to shoot enemies out of the air reliably, let alone jump up and actually hit them. The only time I've had a reliably good time shooting ragdolled enemies out of the air has been on Low Gravity Nightmare missions, explicitly due to the higher arc and slower descent that low gravity produces. I obviously don't want low gravity all the time in all missions, but some kind of low gravity like effect for knocked-up enemies is what I feel is necessary to make the mechanic practical for your average player.

I think a good way to do this might be a chained input which selectively and simultaneously targets enemies affected by the slam.

For example: slam + hold E to attack every enemy launched by the slam once.

Kinda like this, but in a 3D space.

Alternatively, tap E to slam and then manually (bulletjump + air combo) focus on just 1 high-priority target for sustained juggling. This could help bridge juggling's usefulness in near-OHKO horde context.

Quote

People already complain about combos having a negligible pause between strikes, so I don't see them ever accepting DMC-style lock-on air juggling.

A bit tangential, but... What? Have you played DMC3/4/5? Lock-on has nothing to do with attack delays.

Quote

While I realise this wasn't directed at me, I still wanted to say: Fair enough. Juggling in general is interesting to discuss in a theoretical sense, but I personally don't believe the game necessarily needs it. Warframe is a predominantly fast-paced shooter which doesn't benefit from lock-on mechanics, multi-step interactions and static combat. In fact, these general rules is why I proposed the "universal Rhino stomp" and "Archmelee auto-target" systems. I was looking for the most hands-off, non-binding implementation I could think of which still qualified as "Juggling," and there really isn't a lot of wiggle room under those constraints.

Agreed, more or less. I am receptive to juggling; I just want it to be a bit more than window dressing.

The implementation and controls definitely need to be kept simple and intuitive.

[Steel_Rook]

It's a bit late in the day, so only rapid-fire responses incoming.

 

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The biggest problem I have with it is the relative unreliability of singling out a specific target within large groups. I haven't played the Arkham games, but I have played Shadow of Mordor (which I am told is more or less identical) and I regularly found myself annoyed at the difficulty of consistently attacking specific high-value targets. The biggest problem I have with AW melee beyond its unresponsiveness is its ambiguous target selection, so I can't see that working out well.

That's less due to the combat system and more to the camera controls. Arkham games lack a reticle and allow (even encourage) attacks in all directions, with the camera pulled out and aimed down. Warframe is an over-the-shoulder shooter with a centre-screen reticle and an explicit aim system. Targeting lunge attacks, then, should be as specific as any firearm and come down simply to aiming at the target you're trying to lunge to. In fact, a system very much like this is already in use for the various Executions in the game. For instance, it took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out how to perform ground executions - specifically that I had to aim AT the downed enemy, not just turn my warframe to face it. I was aiming high and executing regular swings, instead.

Of course, I'm speaking in theory. However, having used both the Redeemer and the Sarpa, I find that aiming "slightly ranged" melee attacks can be made relatively easy, reliable and intuitive with even just a little practice. I'd cite my experience with Archmelee as well, but Archwing missions are rarely very crowded so I'm not entirely sure if said experience applies.

 

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

It could just be me, but I don't have any issues with landing air-to-air strikes as it already is. This is part of why I want to see melee attacks more or less divorced from movement animations; I would want the combo to execute the same way whether midair or grounded, aim-gliding or free-falling.

There's a substantial difference between combat on the ground and combat in the air, though. On the ground, Warframes have free lateral movement capability which simply doesn't exist in the air. We have a double jump with fairly little lateral movement, a dodge which locks us out of attacking and very limited air control via movement direction inputs. If my initial jump isn't perfectly lined up, there's next to nothing I can do to adjust my position. Doubly so against a target falling at normal speed. Hell, I can barely nail a stationary camera with my Galatine without sailing past it and getting spotted, let alone an arcing enemy. Given the above, I simply don't see how aerial melee combat can be anything more than a gimmick without some form of built in gap closing and auto-direct.

 

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I think a good way to do this might be a chained input which selectively and simultaneously targets enemies affected by the slam. For example: slam + hold E to attack every enemy launched by the slam once. Kinda like this, but in a 3D space. Alternatively, tap E to slam and then manually (bulletjump + air combo) focus on just 1 high-priority target for sustained juggling. This could help bridge juggling's usefulness in near-OHKO horde context.

What you're proposing is a system of extremes. Either you hold down a button to automate combat to such an extent that it might as well be an ability (and is - Excalibur's "Slash Dash") or you go with bullet jumps and manually-targeted aerial attacks which I don't even see as possible, much less practical. The whole reason I proposed a mid-air slow for knocked-up targets is because the time window following an airborne target up under normal gravity is absurdly small, the accuracy required far beyond the controls' ability to replicate reliably and the result in stark contrast to how the game generally plays. Hell, even fighting games typically have an automated and auto-directed jump to follow an airborne target.

A "Rhino Stomp Lite" would help suspend targets long enough for an average player to react while directed aerial attacks would help the average player actually land hits, as opposed to swinging at air or sailing merrily past their target (both of which are why I gave up on aerial melee altogether). And you have to remember that Warframe is not a fighting game. It is first and foremost a shooter, even if it has an extensive and expansive melee system. As such, melee juggling should probably not be restricted to purely melee follow-ups. The whole point I cited Bullet Storm is because that's an FPS game with a juggle mechanic designed around enabling either melee or gunfire follow-ups.

Long story short, I don't see Juggling working unless it can occupy a middle ground between melee and firearms while being accessible to a majority of the player base. You want something which works like the slam attack, i.e. simple, easy and intuitive to use without creating a liability. You definitely don't want something like melee counters, which is so obscure, cumbersome and situational that nobody really bothers.

 

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

A bit tangential, but... What? Have you played DMC3/4/5? Lock-on has nothing to do with attack delays.

I've played 3, 4 and DMC. Those games' implementation of aerial combos locks the player character to the airborne enemy for the duration of the aerial combo. Attack delays aren't the issue. Being locked into a one-on-one duel in the sky is the issue, in that it's ill-suited for a game where a majority of enemies wield guns. DMC's juggling mechanic would be as out-of-place in Warframe as Dark Souls stamina would be. "Lift, jump, air combo" is both too complicated and too slow for Warframe's scale and pace. That's what that comment was addressing.

[AshenHaze]

Honestly, with the current changes I'm curious why folk feel it's more Devil May Cry. 

Feels more like Black Desert Online or any other Action-MMO. Once again, not complaining. I'd love to see juggling, I really would, I always enjoy playing Warframe as a game of freedom of movement. I was insanely psyched for the Parkour revamp, mostly because I was jealous of the Hyena pack (at the time) being more agile than our warframes. Then I enjoyed many, many fights on Psamathe John Woo'ing the crap outta things and having most of my fight in the air, rather than aiming on the ground.

I can't tell you how much I'll enjoy the new Gas System tilesets where roaming through the air will be the norm (and hope the next Open World is a Skyworld). Hell, I even have builds set that have literally nothing to do with powers and everything to do with certain defenses as well as spamming Exilus mods everywhere (drifts, speed, less friction, etc).

I don't really "farm" for things. I generally dislike group play because of how ultimately mundane it is. Everything is either instantly deleted or you are instantly deleted. I can't see how anyone can consider that fun unless they're a game-breaking min-maxer. I prefer my obscure builds and weapons. Does it slow the game? Yes. Do I care? No. Why? It's fun for me. I get more enjoyment when I manage to land certain chains into stealth finishers, ping-pong between wall spots while picking off targets with a single-shot pistol, and when I manage to get that sliding attack just right which causes me to strafe machine gun fire into a strong enemy or group of enemies.

If the game devs want to add some more optional stuff (which believe me, no one in the "upper eschelon" of warframe will use) which gives people like me more of a chance to have fun what's so wrong with that? Why is this bad? Most video game developers don't even try to emulate the high-risk/high-reward or intense action combat games of yore. Folk like me literally have nowhere else to go. We're basically an untapped market waiting to explode. Why are you trying to prevent Warframe/DE from doing the best they can to make money?

[DiabolusUrsus]

11 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

It's a bit late in the day, so only rapid-fire responses incoming.

 

That's less due to the combat system and more to the camera controls. Arkham games lack a reticle and allow (even encourage) attacks in all directions, with the camera pulled out and aimed down. Warframe is an over-the-shoulder shooter with a centre-screen reticle and an explicit aim system. Targeting lunge attacks, then, should be as specific as any firearm and come down simply to aiming at the target you're trying to lunge to. In fact, a system very much like this is already in use for the various Executions in the game. For instance, it took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out how to perform ground executions - specifically that I had to aim AT the downed enemy, not just turn my warframe to face it. I was aiming high and executing regular swings, instead.

Of course, I'm speaking in theory. However, having used both the Redeemer and the Sarpa, I find that aiming "slightly ranged" melee attacks can be made relatively easy, reliable and intuitive with even just a little practice. I'd cite my experience with Archmelee as well, but Archwing missions are rarely very crowded so I'm not entirely sure if said experience applies.

Does that mean, then, that the soft-lock will not function if the player is not aiming specifically at an enemy? Personally, I think it would be safer and simpler to go with the "quick melee" implementation where free movement allows players to move exactly where they want when they want in order to execute an attack.

11 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

There's a substantial difference between combat on the ground and combat in the air, though. On the ground, Warframes have free lateral movement capability which simply doesn't exist in the air. We have a double jump with fairly little lateral movement, a dodge which locks us out of attacking and very limited air control via movement direction inputs. If my initial jump isn't perfectly lined up, there's next to nothing I can do to adjust my position. Doubly so against a target falling at normal speed. Hell, I can barely nail a stationary camera with my Galatine without sailing past it and getting spotted, let alone an arcing enemy. Given the above, I simply don't see how aerial melee combat can be anything more than a gimmick without some form of built in gap closing and auto-direct.

This is more a function of the available hitboxes than it is ability to aim mid-air. Lateral movement isn't actually all that important for enabling air combos.

11 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

What you're proposing is a system of extremes. Either you hold down a button to automate combat to such an extent that it might as well be an ability (and is - Excalibur's "Slash Dash") or you go with bullet jumps and manually-targeted aerial attacks which I don't even see as possible, much less practical. The whole reason I proposed a mid-air slow for knocked-up targets is because the time window following an airborne target up under normal gravity is absurdly small, the accuracy required far beyond the controls' ability to replicate reliably and the result in stark contrast to how the game generally plays. Hell, even fighting games typically have an automated and auto-directed jump to follow an airborne target.

Wouldn't the "might as well be an ability" criticism be equally - if not more - applicable to your "mini Rhino-stomp" suggestion? I think it would make sense to have the automated group juggle follow-up cost combo-meter similar to a heavy attack (but not full consumption) if that helps reconcile it at all.

I understand why you proposed the slow, but I'm still not sold on it as being particularly great for gameplay. What you'll see is players using it for is fast on-demand CC rather than serious engagement with juggling.

Assuming DE puts in the gravity-canceling hit-stun effects necessary for juggling to function at all, simply reducing the recovery period following a slam and ensuring enemies are launched straight up rather than away would make it easier for players to initiate air combos against launched enemies.

11 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

A "Rhino Stomp Lite" would help suspend targets long enough for an average player to react while directed aerial attacks would help the average player actually land hits, as opposed to swinging at air or sailing merrily past their target (both of which are why I gave up on aerial melee altogether). And you have to remember that Warframe is not a fighting game. It is first and foremost a shooter, even if it has an extensive and expansive melee system. As such, melee juggling should probably not be restricted to purely melee follow-ups. The whole point I cited Bullet Storm is because that's an FPS game with a juggle mechanic designed around enabling either melee or gunfire follow-ups.

I disagree with this assessment; the demonstrated aerial combos will already address your complaint of excessive forward momentum carrying you past targets, and I strongly disagree that Warframe is first and foremost a shooter. Gunplay and melee have been in the game an equal amount of time, and the whole instant-swap mechanic was explicitly aimed at integrating the two mechanics back together rather than requiring players to use melee in exclusivity.

11 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Long story short, I don't see Juggling working unless it can occupy a middle ground between melee and firearms while being accessible to a majority of the player base. You want something which works like the slam attack, i.e. simple, easy and intuitive to use without creating a liability. You definitely don't want something like melee counters, which is so obscure, cumbersome and situational that nobody really bothers.

Hence the simplified and automated input of holding E without any need for aiming at all, or a focused single-target juggle executed manually but not consuming meter.

11 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I've played 3, 4 and DMC. Those games' implementation of aerial combos locks the player character to the airborne enemy for the duration of the aerial combo.

... No it doesn't? Combos are mostly broken up into quick 1-2 hit swings triggered by separate inputs, interruptible via double-jump or "enemy steps," and only commit to an enemy for as long as you continue holding down the lock button.

11 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Attack delays aren't the issue. Being locked into a one-on-one duel in the sky is the issue, in that it's ill-suited for a game where a majority of enemies wield guns. DMC's juggling mechanic would be as out-of-place in Warframe as Dark Souls stamina would be. "Lift, jump, air combo" is both too complicated and too slow for Warframe's scale and pace. That's what that comment was addressing.

Actually, that's entirely an issue of balance. A simple juggle-triggered damage reduction (similar to the conditional roll damage reduction) would work nicely, and I wouldn't imagine a Warframe juggle going beyond 3-4 hits - certainly not the extended "never touch the ground" scenarios you see in most spectacle action games. In any case it's not like players magically attract more bullets mid-air than they do on the ground, so provided players aren't comboing the same enemy for several seconds it shouldn't make that big of a difference.

There's also no need to separate the launch > jump > combo into 3 discreet steps; practically every game that includes aerial juggling allows players to sustain launcher inputs to follow targets into the air automatically at the correct height without requiring them to aim and jump.

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, AshenHaze said:

Honestly, with the current changes I'm curious why folk feel it's more Devil May Cry.

Warframe not being Devil May Cry is actually a fairly significant point throughout this thread, including in the OP. DE themselves said they - mistakenly - copied DMC too closely with Melee 2.0, and part of my alarm is that they're going down that route again with juggling. If you actually read and paid attention, you might know that.

Quote

Feels more like Black Desert Online or any other Action-MMO. Once again, not complaining. I'd love to see juggling, I really would, I always enjoy playing Warframe as a game of freedom of movement. I was insanely psyched for the Parkour revamp, mostly because I was jealous of the Hyena pack (at the time) being more agile than our warframes. Then I enjoyed many, many fights on Psamathe John Woo'ing the crap outta things and having most of my fight in the air, rather than aiming on the ground.

I can't tell you how much I'll enjoy the new Gas System tilesets where roaming through the air will be the norm (and hope the next Open World is a Skyworld). Hell, I even have builds set that have literally nothing to do with powers and everything to do with certain defenses as well as spamming Exilus mods everywhere (drifts, speed, less friction, etc).

Calling it now, Gas City is going to suck unless they've got some miracle pathfinding update they haven't told us about. Have you seen how Warframe enemies handle changes in elevation? Not well. I for one am not particularly excited about huge vertical rooms where all the enemies are concentrated on a few narrow catwalks due to not having the same freedom of movement as the players.

Quote

I don't really "farm" for things. I generally dislike group play because of how ultimately mundane it is. Everything is either instantly deleted or you are instantly deleted. I can't see how anyone can consider that fun unless they're a game-breaking min-maxer. I prefer my obscure builds and weapons. Does it slow the game? Yes. Do I care? No. Why? It's fun for me. I get more enjoyment when I manage to land certain chains into stealth finishers, ping-pong between wall spots while picking off targets with a single-shot pistol, and when I manage to get that sliding attack just right which causes me to strafe machine gun fire into a strong enemy or group of enemies.

You do you, fam. Dunno how this is relevant, though.

Quote

If the game devs want to add some more optional stuff (which believe me, no one in the "upper eschelon" of warframe will use) which gives people like me more of a chance to have fun what's so wrong with that? Why is this bad? Most video game developers don't even try to emulate the high-risk/high-reward or intense action combat games of yore. Folk like me literally have nowhere else to go. We're basically an untapped market waiting to explode. Why are you trying to prevent Warframe/DE from doing the best they can to make money?

Why does everyone keep mistaking my feedback as "don't add new things?"

My feedback is "don't add useless things." Seriously, why would you disagree with that? Would you prefer for juggling to be awesome, but impractical? Dunno about you, but I would prefer for it to be both awesome AND practical.

Hence why I have said repeatedly: If you are dead-set on adding juggling, please put in the time and effort needed to make it useful. My only other request is to finish the stance reworks and weapon rebalance first, because those will have a more immediate reliable benefit for the gameplay. Please stop throwing all these strawmen my way without stopping to listen to what it is I actually have to say.

Edited April 10, 2019 by DiabolusUrsus
2.0/3.0 error

[AshenHaze]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

*snip*

The problem is not the game developers in this case for adding practicality, the problem is essentially with the players. Players find the path of least resistance when they grind for something. Anything added "for fun" will essentially be ignored in this factor. However, I feel that the devs should add as much "for fun" as physically possible. Let the uber-grinders, uber-grind. The post I made that you considered irrelevant is actually incredibly relevant. People find enjoyment in various aspects of the game, if the game devs want to add more mechanics (that might not be path of least resistance) then why stop them? They'll add some random Prime weapon to make the min-maxers happy anyway. Nothing, and I mean nothing, short of God himself is going to stop people from using their Riven'd Amprex/Arca Plasmor/Opticor Vandal/whateverelse and just breezing through stuff. Good for them, right? My definition of fun is different, simply put. People were complaining for days when the Parkour system 2.0 was revealed for the same reason, but I still find the various things I can do with it fun. There will be something for the "high end meta audience" probably in how launching enemies is treated. Honestly IDAF what is done to please them because it's not my preferred playstyle. I'll tolerate it, do such if I want to zone out and watch movies while playing this game or whatnot. 

And honestly the entire OP of yours REEKS of "don't add this". It's just a subtle form of "don't add this" which is Don't add this unless it meets my specific outview. Honestly, I'm not even trying to change your mind on the matter, but show other people browsing this thread that fun mechanics ARE worth adding and ARE worthwhile, even if it doesn't fit the current scheme of the "instant-delete" endgame mode.

Edited April 10, 2019 by AshenHaze

[moodster]

8 minutes ago, AshenHaze said:

The problem is not the game developers in this case for adding practicality, the problem is essentially with the players. Players find the path of least resistance when they grind for something. Anything added "for fun" will essentially be ignored in this factor. However, I feel that the devs should add as much "for fun" as physically possible. Let the uber-grinders, uber-grind. The post I made that you considered irrelevant is actually incredibly relevant. People find enjoyment in various aspects of the game, if the game devs want to add more mechanics (that might not be path of least resistance) then why stop them? They'll add some random Prime weapon to make the min-maxers happy anyway. Nothing, and I mean nothing, short of God himself is going to stop people from using their Riven'd Amprex/Arca Plasmor/Opticor Vandal/whateverelse and just breezing through stuff. Good for them, right? My definition of fun is different, simply put. People were complaining for days when the Parkour system 2.0 was revealed for the same reason, but I still find the various things I can do with it fun. There will be something for the "high end meta audience" probably in how launching enemies is treated. Honestly IDAF what is done to please them because it's not my preferred playstyle. I'll tolerate it, do such if I want to zone out and watch movies while playing this game or whatnot. 

And honestly the entire OP of yours REEKS of "don't add this". It's just a subtle form of "don't add this" which is Don't add this unless it meets my specific outview. Honestly, I'm not even trying to change your mind on the matter, but show other people browsing this thread that fun mechanics ARE worth adding and ARE worthwhile, even if it doesn't fit the current scheme of the "instant-delete" endgame mode.

my thoughts exactly, well said...