Wisp and why I don't like the current way of designing new Warframes.

[Highresist]

I'm really confused why DE are afraid to make a strong dps frame on the level of Saryn, Equinox, Mesa or Excal. Wisp was supposed to be (from watching the dev streams) a walking, or in the case - floating, nuke, but her 4 turned out to be a wet fart. She is just another jack of all traits, master of none Warframe and it is really disappointing. 
It is not only wispe, if we take the last 4/5 newest frames, excluding Hildryn, they all are mediocre damage dealers with an added gimick of being semi-tanks, semi-supports or point defenders. The Jack of all traits, master of none makes these Warframes boring instead of interesting or unique. 
It may be an unpopular opinion, but the game meta evolved into the holy trinity of Tank, DPS, Healer and maybe DE should embrace it, rather than continuesly throwing new characters with ability kits that is strictly inferiour to what we already have.
Look at the rework of Oberon, who used to be nothing more than MR fodder, but now he is on the level of Trinity when it comes to supporting the team. I would much rather see Warframes that have one strict role (Hildryn gave me hope for that, although I feel that was by accident) rather than being able to do "everything". 
Having Warframes that specialize in one role would also be much easier to balance. Take Gara for example, as she is the modern equivelent of tank/objective control Warframe. She is very well made with having abilities to defend an objective, tank a lot of damage and have respectable murder potential in a range that does not brake the game, for an unkillable Warframe. She is the modern day Frost and is one of the best designed frames in the game, because she specializes in one aspect, while also having offencive potential.
Saryn, as the "Queen of ESO" is the "Best Girl" of Warframe (fight me). She specializes in murdering a lot of enemies in a large range, while having a bit of tankiness and hp sustain within her kit, but not so much to be able to take a large amount of punishment while also murdering everything in sight. Mesa is very similar to Saryn, she trades the spread of her damage for more focused burst and is equally effective in what she does. Equinox is also a very powerful murder frame, though not as effective as the other 2, because she trades some of her damage for CC and support abilities, while also having a good defence (in her night form). All 3 of them are amazing at one role and are balanced around it with tradeoffs, while also keeping individual uniqueness. In comparison Wisp, Baruuk, Revenant, Garuda and Khora are just a mash of all roles - some tanking, some buffing, some dps, some cc and in my opinion, it is a design that holds them being mediocre, because they just do everything in a very bland manner, instead of being amazing at one thing. 
Hildryn is an exception and, as I said, I think it is one, by a mistake. If we look at her kit, it its the same of every newer warframe - some DPS, some CC, some support. Hildryn's shiled buffs just turned out to be too good and she fell in a support role, rather than just being another mediocre jack of all traits Warframe.
In conclusion, my opinion is that designing Warframes in the future should be towards specializing in one role, rather than spreading their kit all over the place and trying to balanced it, by making all of it "meh", because it can do everything.

[Ced23Ric]

Wisp more or less permanently doubles the burst potential of everyone, while keeping them healed and in most cases doubling their EHP. She provides consistent CC, and she has mobility. As a clear support frame, she's not much of a damage dealer. And if you want to build her as a tank, 1900hp, 450 armor, 100 hp/s heals, Adaptation, and Bob's your uncle. Her force multiplier factor is huge.

She's just not a press 4 to win frame.

Hildryn, on the other hand, is a worse Inaros. She can do some funny things, but she can't do it as well as Inaros/Rhino, because her status immunity relies on overshields.

If anything, I feel like Hildryn rates below Wisp in overall power ranking.

[Highresist]

11 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

As a clear support frame, she's not much of a damage dealer.

Excatly, she is a buffer, who is worse than Trinity and Oberon, because jars on the ground, while having a nuke 4 and CC that are just bad. I get that every critisism against DE on the forums is met with furious retaliation, but we have better support Warframes. Wisp is obsolate from the start, due to her having tradeoffs that make no sense. If you want to have her as a support, why would you give her a nuke 4, that doesn't do damage and doesn't debuff ther targets? Oberon's is a armor stripping ability, that makes a lot more sence for a support warframe.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Highresist

[elmetnuter]

Hildryn is a clear case of design intentions pushed too far. Everything in the same basket is a no go for me. She can support the team really well but has no sustain in case of emergency.

I don't buy this "Jack of all trade, master of none" narrative that people are trying to push onto the frame they don't like or don't understand - or simply can't connect to in term of gameplay. I think that they mean something else. It took me a while to understand and start playing a lot of them, and surprise! The ones I can't play anymore, are really the ones that are just good at one thing. Maybe some like you really appreciate a straight forward role that never budged and maybe some like me appreciate the strength of multiple angle. 

[Ced23Ric]

1 minute ago, Highresist said:

Excatly, she is a buffer, who is worse than Trinity and Oberon, because jars on the ground, while having a nuke 4 and CC that are just bad.

Trinity is a better healer, but offers no CC or DPS increase to the team.
Oberon is a (minimally) worse healer / better defensive buff, but offers no CC or DPS increase to the team.
Wisp heals slightly better than Oberon without pinning the team to an area, increases DPS and offers CC the team can carry around.

How is she objectively worse when she matches Oberon in healing and eclipses both in DPS and transportable CC of which neither pins the team to a specific location, other than for refreshing (at no additional energy cost) at the leisure of each squadmate?

[Highresist]

1 minute ago, Ced23Ric said:

but offers no CC or DPS increase to the team.

He strips armor.

[Ced23Ric]

Just now, Highresist said:

He strips armor.

... oh yeah. That's true, so I'll take that back. Doesn't work against most Corpus, several Corrupted or Infested, but that's sure a thing he does.

[Mez999]

Ah the new endgame. Trash anything new and call anyone that disagrees a white knight. 

Some of us don’t enjoy pressing 4 and leaving it at that. I love a frame with synergies that you need to think about. Not all frames are, nor should be, designed to be top level endgame. 

The whole point is that you look at the mission and have a number of frames that’ll work for that mission and enemy type. If all frames turn into press 4 to win, it defeats the point of having multiple frames. 

[WhiteMarker]

I'm actually the complete opposite.
I really like Frames like Wisp.
Sure, I use Saryn and Equinox if I want to get the job (DPS) done. But their gameplay is nothing special. Nothing to enjoy really.
Wisp, on the other hand, has intersting skills, isn't OP in what she does, and she is pretty useful to the team.

And IIRC DE said that they don't want to make more frames like Saryn. They want to make fun frames, that aren't OP. And Wisp fits that perfectly.

[Highresist]

4 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

How is she objectively worse when she matches Oberon in healing

She heals in a very gimicky way with statick jars on the ground and as far as I have seen, she doesn't heal objectives - Arbitration and Sorty defence. Also Phoenix Renewal is invaluable.  

[Ced23Ric]

2 minutes ago, Highresist said:

She heals in a very gimicky way with statick jars on the ground and as far as I have seen.

Quick question - you are aware that all Wisp buffs stick - depending on build - for a minute after you left the reservoir range, and can be refreshed by running into their range for a split second, right? You don't have to stay by the jars. If you do, the buff is permanent, if you don't, you get a minute of +1000hp & 100hp/s healed, +101% RoF/melee speed & 67% movement speed, and shock 5 enemies with 100% status chance every ~3 seconds.

You played Wisp, right?

Edited May 27, 2019 by Ced23Ric

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, Highresist said:

She heals in a very gimicky way with statick jars on the ground and as far as I have seen

Yes, put a jar down, team mates get the buff and can run around for 30 seconds and more. Than they have to pick up the buff again.
In missions where heals are needed you don't run around the map. So it's fine the way it is.

And as someone pointed out:
Stop comparing only the heals...
Wisp does things Oberon can't do. If we just talk about buffing DPS, then Wisp is way better than Oberon and Oberon is trash. But this kind of comparison doesn't make sense.

[Walkampf]

This whole thred is a very good example for the fact, that "a good Frame" is HIGHLY subjective (in most cases, looking at you, Monkeyboy).

As for:

vor 30 Minuten schrieb Highresist:

I'm really confused why DE are afraid to make a strong dps frame on the level of Saryn, Equinox, Mesa or Excal

Well, if I hav eto speculate, the reason whould be, because we already HAVE several strong DPS Frames, like the mentioned + a few others, loike Rhino, Chroma, banshee, Ash, Mag, Mirage, Ocatavia and others.

And most of these DPS Frames mangage to cause the DPS by vastly different means.

Good support Warframes are a lot rarer.

Stealth Warframes are even fewer.

[--DSP--Jetstream]

33 minutes ago, Highresist said:

nuke,interesting or unique. 
 

Nukes is what makes this game horribly boring

[JackHargreav]

You want Dps? Go back playing Mesa.

[Highresist]

6 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

Quick question - you are aware that all Wisp buffs stick - depending on build - for a minute after you left the reservoir range, and can be refreshed by running into their range for a split second, right? You don't have to stay by the jars. If you do, the buff is permanent, if you don't, you get a minute of +1000hp & 100hp/s healed, +101% RoF/melee speed & 67% movement speed, and shock 5 enemies with 100% status chance every ~3 seconds.

You played Wisp, right?

Oh this is becoming Baruuk vs Excalibur all over again. My point is - she takes tradeoffs that make no sence for a support frame, if she is indeed designed to be a support frame, rather than a jack of all traits one. Oberon's damage abilities serve his support purpose. Wisp's ones serve none.

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Highresist

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Highresist said:

She heals in a very gimicky way with statick jars on the ground and as far as I have seen, she doesn't heal objectives - Arbitration and Sorty defence. Also Phoenix Renewal is invaluable.  

To be fair, Wisp's buffs are pretty damned strong for a 25 energy first skill, although it would have been better if they gave bigger bonuses and were on her 3rd skill instead for 50 energy, while the blind just goes into her 2nd. Not saying Breach Surge is bad but its very wonky right now. They can then give her a better 1.

Or they can just make Breach Surge less gimmicky and more like a proper debuff/radial blind. Wouldn't mind that either. It could have been an excellent skill if not for the S#&$ty targeting.

20 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

... oh yeah. That's true, so I'll take that back. Doesn't work against most Corpus, several Corrupted or Infested, but that's sure a thing he does.

Also, to be fair to Oberon, all his skills proc rad like no tomorrow. Sure it's not the best CC but you can't deny that he can make enemies shoot each other like some madhouse if you don't just use him for his 3. Also, his 1 and 4 are hard CCs in that they knockdown, just not for very long.

Oberon WAS the OG Jack of all Trades.

24 minutes ago, elmetnuter said:

I don't buy this "Jack of all trade, master of none" narrative that people are trying to push onto the frame they don't like or don't understand - or simply can't connect to in term of gameplay. I think that they mean something else. It took me a while to understand and start playing a lot of them, and surprise! The ones I can't play anymore, are really the ones that are just good at one thing. Maybe some like you really appreciate a straight forward role that never budged and maybe some like me appreciate the strength of multiple angle. 

I have to say, I kind of agree with this guy, but Wisp's 4 has one teething issue - the scale up and the procs per second is way too low.

As I will repeat, all Sol Gate needs is 1/10 the current damage per tick, 10 times the fire rate (10 times the ticks). Also, for usefulness, an innate armor strip like Shattering Impact that is base armor/s. The scaling formula is actually ok if the thing ticked faster (and scaled per tick). Her "overcharge" should just increase the tick rate, not the damage (in essence the DPS still increases but it's stripping armor, proccing and scaling a lot faster).

Edited May 27, 2019 by Guest

[Ced23Ric]

3 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Oh this is becoming Baruuk vs Excalibur all over again. My point is - she takes tradeoffs that make no sence for a support frame, if she is indeed designed to be a support frame, rather than a jack of all traits one. Oberon's damage abilities serve his support purpose. Wisp's ones serve none.

I mean...

• Her [1] offers a full package of support abilities, on par with or eclipsing other frames, either by ease of use, duration or strength. Strongest item in the kit.
• Her [2] is your average mobility package several frames get, with 3s invulnerability on top. It's basically Loki's [1] and [2] with augment.
• Her [3] is a travelling Radial Blind, helping her survivability and takes heat off of the squad and objectives.
• Her [4] is a trash clearer, and chokes hard on heavy units. This is her weakest item in the kit.

1 & 3 are support for others and herself, 2 is her own lifeline and mobility, 4 is neutered because it ain't her role to nuke the room. Looks like a support frame to me.

[Yeti2323]

31 minutes ago, Mez999 said:

Ah the new endgame. Trash anything new and call anyone that disagrees a white knight. 

Some of us don’t enjoy pressing 4 and leaving it at that. I love a frame with synergies that you need to think about. Not all frames are, nor should be, designed to be top level endgame. 

The whole point is that you look at the mission and have a number of frames that’ll work for that mission and enemy type. If all frames turn into press 4 to win, it defeats the point of having multiple frames. 

This.#*!%ing this.

I'm so tired of people saying ,,durr this frame is trash it can't one-hit everything in a 1 km radius,why is DE releasing such a weak frame11!1!1!'' when a new frame doesn't do exactly what equinox/saryn do.(on the side note , when are these things gonna be nerfed?it's long overdue)

Edited May 27, 2019 by Yeti2323

[George_PPS]

Wisp’s supporting abilities are great already and you want her to be another Saryn? 

[Chewarette]

Wisp is awesome. She heals as much as Oberon without the Energy Drain burden with freaking PERMANENT reservoirs. In the situation where you'll be surrounded by Ancient Parasitic Eximii, Oberon will just stop healing, while Wisp won't care at all. Oberon's armor buff is replaced by the HP buff, which is great as well.

Plus, massive control with the lightning thing, the ghost AND her 3 (which also increases damage taken by targets).

And her 4 is awesome too. You only see "low damage" (10k per tick ? How much damage are you dealing with Oberon's 4 or even with Ember's World on Fire ?), I see very acceptable damage for a support frame, with the addition of RADIATION AND CORROSIVE statuses on a 40+ meter range FFS.

The only thing I dislike with her design is the emphasis on "hold X to do whatever". I've always thought that "Hold X to increase damage/range of whatever spell" was a poor design which slows down the gameplay (because I'm lacking a third hand or a few fingers to achieve all that flawlessly).

Edited May 27, 2019 by Chewarette

[(PSN)thowed]

I don't understand the Khora hate.  With range that dome trivializes almost every mission type.  The whip augment with the right weapon let's you just whip almost everything to death instantly.  I even use her for sortie rescues solo.  Pop the dome and peacefully hack doors.  Every frame is not good at everything.  Even the precious killing frames.  How many Saryns and Mesas you see on eidolons?  Sometimes on profit taker in a premade squad to control adds but no one random enters with them.  Every frame doesn't need to be a nuker, especially when we have more than 1 already and there's some content they can't do.

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, Ced23Ric said:

anything, I feel like Hildryn rates below Wisp in overall power ranking.

This id have to disagree with

Due to shield pillages flat stripping, Balefires extremely high damage output Hyld can kill level 200+ armored targets ridiculously easily and they cant kill her at all.

Ignoring her 3 and 4 and building for stupidly high power strength means shes almost always over shieldef and if shes not everythings dead anyway.

[Ced23Ric]

1 minute ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

This id have to disagree with

Due to shield pillages flat stripping, Balefires extremely high damage output Hyld can kill level 200+ armored targets ridiculously easily and they cant kill her at all.

Ignoring her 3 and 4 and building for stupidly high power strength means shes almost always over shieldef and if shes not everythings dead anyway.

I'm all the way with you on the "Ignore the [3] and [4]" train. Man, what boring videos people made about how "awesome" her [4] is. The true ticket is the [2] and her passive. But, as far as Balefire Charger goes - eh. I'd much rather use gun, than those things. And that's where and why I am rating Wisp higher in overall power level. Hildryn can make sure she don't die and strip armor, which is p great. Wisp can make four players shoot/melee twice as faster while healing them and providing AoE CC every few seconds.

Who deals more damage? One Hildryn with Balefire Chargers or four Tenno shooting/slashing twice as fast?

[(PSN)psycofang]

3 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

Who deals more damage? One Hildryn with Balefire Chargers or four Tenno shooting/slashing twice as fast?

4 unkillable 2 spamming Hylds shooting wide ranged balefires 1 shotting groups.

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Tbqh i wouldnt even know where to behin mathing that out. I get what youre saying ive played with wisp myself i was jusy pointing out on the design scale that Hylds pretty unkillable in high levels while killing high levels pretty easily.