Profit Taker fight, still as unfun as ever.

[Oreades]

So newest Patch inclided an increase in the drop rate of the Bloody Sigil from 1% to 3% so I figured, I purposefully avoid this fight like the plague, why not give it another go.

1. Load into the fight with a group about to fail it and fail, can't blame the fight for that but figure might as well be comprehensive with my encounters
2. This fight went OK I think they where half done when I walked in didn't seem "too" bad
3. Finally got the full experience...... wowzers that was super funzo, It was everything I remember from fighting my own team mates for damage initiative to getting infinitely stunlocked.... with Primed Sure Footed I might add. Did you want to reload or do much of anything LOL SRY gonna staggerlock ya! Oh did you want to engage in the actual damage phase with your Archgun LOL SRY its still on cooldown from the last time you actually managed to not be staggerlocked long enough to switch out of it 

Gonna give it one more shot to see if I can stomach any more of it outside of the obligatory nightwave challenge but the closest comparrison I can draw to this fight is when you where a little kid and you went over to your friends house to play streetfighter and they just mercilessly beat you into a corner.... "Oh hey cool I just can't do anything" super fun and engaging, really made me love that game. 

This mission just vomits knockdown at you and when it isn't knockdwon it's those bounce grenades and when it isn't those it's getting face slammed by the shields after you just recovered from being staggerlocked. 

 

That said I still kinda like the shield push mechanic and think that could work if it wasn't for the ya know everything else. 

[GnarlsDarkley]

Serious question: how do you play?

This sounds like either

a) with your face 

b) whatever Loadout you feel like 

c) a Loadout you put together with a random generating tool

 

First issue: trying a gamemode you despise in public isn't .... smart? Of course you'll get annoyed af

Constant Knock down? I got knocked down once in the whole 10 minute fight (was kinda derust run for NW). Do you let all trash stand untouched?

12 minutes ago, Oreades said:

to play streetfighter and they just mercilessly beat you into a corner..

Jump over him and beat them in the corner?

Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results - Einstein

[Vanilla_nuka]

The fight is terrible, I will never fight profit taker again unless I absolutely have to. Knockdowns, stun locks, teammates who clearly arent prepared, or have inadequate arch weapons, archwing deployer not working because of laggy host, fps drops out the wazoo. No thanks, 3% isnt worth it

Edited July 25, 2019 by Vanilla_nuka

[Vanilla_nuka]

6 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Serious question: how do you play?

This sounds like either

a) with your face 

b) whatever Loadout you feel like 

c) a Loadout you put together with a random generating tool

 

First issue: trying a gamemode you despise in public isn't .... smart? Of course you'll get annoyed af

Constant Knock down? I got knocked down once in the whole 10 minute fight (was kinda derust run for NW). Do you let all trash stand untouched?

Jump over him and beat them in the corner?

Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results - Einstein

You must be a god gamer with a perfect loadout, who can speedrun the boss by yourself in under a few minutes.

[Oreades]

10 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Serious question: how do you play?

This sounds like either

a) with your face 

My god, that must be it, I never thought that it might be the gigantic novelty keyboard at my desk that I just slam my face into that could be the problem. I'll switch that out for a normal human keyboard and this fight will magically be awesome! Thanks ur a life saver!

 

[Jfalz]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

fighting my own team mates for damage initiative

I can deal with all the other annoying things in this fight, except this one!  How sad do I feel when it cycles to a damage type that I have lots of, only for someone else to immediately cycle it back to a different damage type that I have not much of?  Very sad, indeed.

[GnarlsDarkley]

7 hours ago, Oreades said:

Thanks ur a life saver!

 

8 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Serious question: how do you play?

Since are not even able to answer how you try to engage this fight, confirms my assumption.

I suggest you watch streams where people do this. And I don't mean Youtube. These guys know what they are doing and you will have a hard time copying that. But random no name streamer struggle like yourself may give you an important tipp.

8 hours ago, Vanilla_nuka said:

You must be a god gamer with a perfect loadout, who can speedrun the boss by yourself in under a few minutes.

Quite the contrary. It took me 10 minutes...you even quoted me...I guess reading isn't one of your skills (as well?)

People like Tavier Corsair are - as you would say - god gamer with runs sub 3 minutes. I am way too chill to even try sub 5 and am very happy with my 8 to 10 miuntes. Thank you

And my Loadout only covers only 7 out of the 13 possible damage types

Edited July 26, 2019 by GnarlsDarkley

[Oreades]

34 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Since are not even able to answer how you try to engage this fight, confirms my assumption.

Nah fam if you where srs you would have stopped at "Serious question: how do you play?" 

That said assuming your assumptions where that your implications didn't warrant any serious response, then correctamundo 

[GnarlsDarkley]

17 minutes ago, Oreades said:

you would have stopped at "Serious question: how do you play?" 

I was just so confused on your OP that I had to add the sarcasm.

Not even with my alt accounts' Loadout I experience any of your struggle, so you really have to do sth fundamentally wrong

9 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

First issue: trying a gamemode you despise in public isn't .... smart? Of course you'll get annoyed af

Constant Knock down? I got knocked down once in the whole 10 minute fight (was kinda derust run for NW). Do you let all trash stand untouched?

This was serious feedback

9 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Jump over him and beat them in the corner?

This a metaphoric example. You have an obstacle? Try to overcome it and don't let it block your way forever.

Hence my quote from Einstein. 

All of 3 discribes example involve stupid public groups. Did you try recruit? Solo? Even if it takes you 20minutes solo...it's faster and less stressful than public.

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

So I've tried three different loadouts for this mission. First I tried Rhino, because Rhino is good at .. oh wait he's dead. And he's dead and HE.IS.DEAD.

OK, ragequit because that difficulty wall (this isn't even a spike, a spike would be nice) is ridiculous when you've literally mastered most of the content in the game.

Alright.. so now a few months later, I figured "Maybe I've just been overreacting, it couldn't have been that bad?" I figured, alright since Ferrite armor is out.. how about ... shields?

I've got a new saying now "Like a Hildryns chance in a profit taker fight".

Alright, different tack. Let's STOP thinking, let's copy someone else. So I did, I took my Inaros, you know the one I threw an Umbra slot on to max out it's health to 8600.
OK, so no fancy weapons, just simple radiation catchmoon, Tenora to max out puncture and then corrosive on my imperator vandal.

Except, you know... there's an army between me and the boss. Hah, Catchmoon to the rescue, this MELTS sortie level enemies, it's my staple in ESO it's .. it's ..Useless. Because there's about six or seven nullifier bubbles between me and the enemies. Oh and yeah, another one of them walked into my Inaros so the armor and health I recovered are now gone. I get out my Tenora and start taking down bubbles, except I get knocked down and I get up and then I realize that what I thought was damage before wasn't anything. 

Because before, the enemies hadn't actually noticed me. They have now, so while I'm trying to recoup my health being whittled away I'm firing my Tenora to take down shields, I sometimes cast a bit of pocket sand so I can recover a bit of health and I glance every so often at the big spider and -

Here's where we freeze frame and examine me. Not my gear, not my warframe, not the mission, not anything else, Let's look at me. Where am I right now, mentally?
My focus is on the advancing horde of enemies, I'm stressed out because there's a beacon to my left and the alert level is already 2. I know by experience that if it's four, I'm completely screwed over. At this time, I have absolutely NO awareness at all about my friends, I have only a cursory awareness of the boss and as far as the mission goes, I have absolutely no idea where we are standing, I don't know if the boss is dying or is alive or .. whatever. I just don't know what phase we're in. 

So after my teammate dropped off (because GLHF trying to communicate over text while you're being swarmed by enemies) I chose to do the same and left two poor randos alone in the cold wastelands being nullified to death.

This is literally the worst fight ever in the game. This requires WoW levels of coordination, planning and loadout matching. This is not something you can do with randos, you have to WANT to do this, you have to GEAR to do this, you have to be super specced up to the gills to do this.

So I'm not doing this. But I hate that I'm missing out on Nightwave stuff now because of it. And, I had to tell my new clan member as well that they won't be able to do it ever because it requires uber gear. Gear I apparently don't even have after six years of playing it seems.

In a sentence: I give up.

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

We need a sword and shield that absorbs and ignores knock back attacks and rather just disperses that knock back right back to enemies around us. But yea my first time doing profit taker ever this week, running with Inaros and negation swarm wasn't so bad. But it was my team mates doing all the damage and I was taking down those reinforcement pylons they placed down. 

[Ham_Grenabe]

OP is dead on. It's a bad fight even when you run the optimal meta. "Easily doable" does not make it somehow a good scenario. You basically stand in a constant damage aura and shoot the boss, with occasional breaks to shoot things stuck in the ground.

That is, if it doesn't glitch you out by erasing your gear wheel, locking you in your frame, failing to respond to inputs, or preventing ability use. 

 

Exploiter may be trivially easy, but it is a vastly better encounter. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[Ralsk]

While it is possible with random groups if you get lucky (because it's the only way I've ever fought him) I do think there are serious issues with the fight.

For one I feel there is far too much incoming damage on you at any given time.  I play as Nezha and I can get absurd amounts of Warding Halo hp if I time it right (well over 20k for instance) and yet even with that much extra damage reduction I feel like that can be shredded in seconds.  I think this simply stems from too many enemies spawning at once.

With all the incoming damage and enemies and whatnot there is no other mission that has ever required me to spam health and energy pizzas the way this mission does.  It's absolutely absurd how quickly you can lose health and energy both from all the chaos going on.

There are also too many nullifying bubbles and then there are the enemies (I don't remember their names) that disable certain abilities but not all of them...usually my 1 and 3 which knocks out my Warding Halo.

Overall I think the amount of enemies and/or their damage needs to be toned down a bit.  It could definitely still be a challenging fight without it seeming stupidly imbalanced in favor of the enemy.  Exploiter is 100x easier than Profit Taker.  Heck, I can solo Exploiter but I don't think I could do Profit Taker on my best day.

[Faerador]

What we need is for this fight to be completely reworked.  It's not fun, and the fact that they make us play it for crappy Nora Nightwave this week is even stupider.  I absolutely detest the fight because of the knockdown spam cheese of the swarms of secondary enemies.  One SIMPLE FIX to make this fight less S#&$ would be to JUST REMOVE SOME OF THE ENDLESS ENEMIES AND LET US FIGHT THE BOSS, like a fight should be.  Seriously.  What's wrong with the design lately?  Do you guys even play your own game anymore?  It's just not fun.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

The solution is simple.

1: get a well built tanky waframe and dont forget that Handspring!

2:  get a wide varaity of elements on raw damage weapon builds!

3: keep beacons dead and just dont suck while you eventually win so long as you dont have the reflexes of a toddler!

And their you go... Just build properly and dont suck at the game and the fight is not that bad. If you dont like it your probably just bad at the game and want it changed because you cant adapt to its mechanics. Noobs get little sympathy from me on this subject and if you feel as though you cant do it get help so you can win until your well geared enough to solo them like a boss! It is not meant to be an easy fight for most people and people should stop complainimg and adapt...

Edited July 28, 2019 by (XB1)Zweimander

[Olphalarepth]

I'm not going to take sides here but I think some of you from both sides have really valid points:

The damage initiative is down right pathetic as every player in the squad keep switching shield weakness when someone was actually dealing good  damage with the previous shield, most of the fight you struggle with your team to see who gets to do anything at all. It feels like "I'M SCREAMING LOUDER THAN YOU SO I GET TO TALK EVEN IF I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY". Sad, pathetic and extremely anti random group. My most disliked part of the fight

Stagger lock, god awful stagger lock. Nuff said. I've learned how to deal with it in my own way without relying on primed foot or whatever.

The fight itself is not hard and is very manageable if you know what you're doing and many frames can trivialize some aspects of the fight. Hell, you are more in danger because of enemy spawn than the spider itself.

 

Now, I've learned to solo it and killed the spider like a couple of hours ago but it was not out of necessity or to test myself but desperation. Playing with a party is just too friggin irritating. When a super boss fight is better fought alone because of terrible game design that favors solo play instead of a party I think devs should go back to work. Not kidding about it, I now prefer to solo the spider than grouping up. It is easier

Edited July 27, 2019 by Olphalarepth

[Ham_Grenabe]

7 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

The solution is simple.

1: get a well built tanky waframe and dont forget that Handspring!

2:  get a wide varaity of elements on raw damage weapon builds!

3: keep beacons dead and just dont suck while you eventually win so long as you dont have the reflexes of a toddler!

And their you go... Just build properly and dont suck at the game and the fight is not that bad. If you dont like it your probably just bad at the game and want it changed because you cant adapt to its mechanics. Noobs get so sympathy from me and if you feel as though you cant do it get help so you can win until your well geared enough to solo them like a boss! 

The problem here is that, like so many things in Warframe, the Profit Taker is fought in the Arsenal screen*, not in the fight. 

There’s nothing much interesting in the fight—no emergent mechanics, nothing solved by quick thinking or tactical skill, nothing where your movement or position or mobility or adaptability matters. 

It’s a poor encounter (not to mention glitchy enough to make even the right builds struggle). It can be an very easy encounter, but that doesn’t make it a good one. 

 

* I can’t take credit for this — a very astute player once pointed out that we win our fights in the arsenal screen; the mission itself is basically just paperwork. 

[(PSN)epke]

I don't understand that the whole game centers about the idea that you are a super space ninja and then create fake difficulty that nullify all the the things that make you a super space Ninja.
They don't have to change the battle but give an option for a lower level version for the players that are not super min maxers or have all the required mods or frames

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

12 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

The problem here is that, like so many things in Warframe, the Profit Taker is fought in the Arsenal screen*, not in the fight. 

There’s nothing much interesting in the fight—no emergent mechanics, nothing solved by quick thinking or tactical skill, nothing where your movement or position or mobility or adaptability matters. 

It’s a poor encounter (not to mention glitchy enough to make even the right builds struggle). It can be an very easy encounter, but that doesn’t make it a good one. 

 

* I can’t take credit for this — a very astute player once pointed out that we win our fights in the arsenal screen; the mission itself is basically just paperwork. 

I wouldnt say that it is totally based off of just gear, it is a big part of it but if you dont keep your timers or tanking ablilties up and dodge your gonna die regardless. I for example can beat it killing next to no random mobs and rarely getting knocked down by the shields and or hit by the PTs actually threatning attacks. Someone less savvy in the movement of the game and building is going to get hit by everything if they choose to go in while unskilled in movement and with a bad build go through their revives like no ones buisness. To say it requires no skill at all is a bit of an overstatment and I do beleive people can get better at the fights mechanics and much like me kill it in no time flat while rarely getting knocked down personally.

[Oreades]

I'd mostly agree but that the AoE tri-burst felt like it was just a hard armor check, cause that would absolutely yeet any squishy frames unless you where fast enough to dip into operator mode. I would almost consider it a reflex check but as far as I could tell the Profit taker doesn't telegraph it at all, maybe it does but I never picked up on any obvious "Get ready I'm going to blast everything in 50+meters in all directions". 

So if you're close up you're pretty much SOL.

I'm sure the answer is just going to be "well then don't be close up" but positioning really doesn't matter in this fight because 95% of it is a rotating invulnerability phase. So why penalize players for their choice in positioning. I mean if there was a reason for players to want to be close up and a telegraphed attack it would be another story but there isn't, it's just sorta there.

 

[Colyeses]

The fight is still an absolute travesty. There's too much going on, and too much unsourced damage to be able to run it comfortably. I don't get hit by anything, I just drop dead without any kind of cause. Add the knockdowns to that, the nullifier bubbles and the fact that the boss constantly turns away from you to hide the critical information of what it's vulnerable to, and the fact that once its shield is down, the fight just… Stops. The legs -sometimes- take damage, I think. But most of the time, it just reads zeroes, and there's no rhyme or reason as to why or what. 

This needs to be removed from Nightwave until it's cleaned up. 

[Sean]

While I find the Tridolons to just being boring damage sponge fights with very little critical thinking involved, Profit Taker is just plain bad.

It isn't fun, it forces you to bring a tankframe (which I personally detest that playstyle), and while it has mechanics that could be interesting, the actual implementation of it all just simply makes for one of the worst of the modern boss fights.

I thought Exploiter was done much better, though I still wish they didn't completely remove the Nova/Octavia "exploit" and instead tuned it to not be overpowered, but still allow for some different playstyles to be viable.

DE needs to figure out what they want boss fights to actually be and how to make them not require the same few frames across the board. Giving other warframe abilities some interesting tie in to the fight would then be able to make the fights themselves feel more dynamic and less repetitive.

[ShortCat]

On 2019-07-27 at 5:45 PM, Ham_Grenabe said:

The problem here is that, like so many things in Warframe, the Profit Taker is fought in the Arsenal screen*, not in the fight. 

There’s nothing much interesting in the fight—no emergent mechanics, nothing solved by quick thinking or tactical skill, nothing where your movement or position or mobility or adaptability matters. 

It’s a poor encounter (not to mention glitchy enough to make even the right builds struggle). It can be an very easy encounter, but that doesn’t make it a good one. 

While what you said is 100% true, none of this is OPs concern. He is not complaining about bad design, but retelling personal anecdotes, whiich clearly show lack of experience and preparation. This belongs into "Players helping Players" not a "Feedback" section. Thus hints like:

• make you tanky
• build for many elements
• destroy beacons

are on spot.

[Ham_Grenabe]

4 hours ago, ShortCat said:

While what you said is 100% true, none of this is OPs concern. He is not complaining about bad design, but retelling personal anecdotes, whiich clearly show lack of experience and preparation. This belongs into "Players helping Players" not a "Feedback" section. Thus hints like:

• make you tanky
• build for many elements
• destroy beacons

are on spot.

I was focusing on the "unfun" notion, but yes, you're right. It can be made much easier, even if (IMO) it never gets more fun. 

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

I guess im in the minority then because I actually enjoy the fight and do it for my credits and for fun? I just like how dynamic it is and how trying to beat my 5 minute solo time on the fight honestly. Sure not everyone can do it because they are either under geared or lack the rank to do it but the fact that this is in the nightwave challenge pushing people to do everything it has to offer and making sure they know their stuff. Every game needs stuff like this albiet maybe it is a bit over the top for most especially to solo without any practice and tinkering with builds, it is what sets the devoted apart from the people who just want to face no challenge and this is my stance!