Case Study

[S3EK3R]

Ah yes, the weekly "let's turn Warframe into another game" thread.

[bibmobello]

5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'd like to see how many people cry about Pay to Win if that were to happen. 

Yes you are right, an adequate solution is if someone revives another player he loses his own revive. Considering most players are full of arcanes and rarely die it's good for new players.

Edited August 23, 2019 by bibmobello

[sleepychewbacca]

3 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

Yes you are right, an adequate solution is if someone revives another player he loses his own revive. Considering most players are full of arcanes and rarely die it's good for new players.

Or I'll just stop reviving players if they go down. 

[bibmobello]

Just now, sleepychewbacca said:

Or I'll just stop reviving players if they go down. 

ahahah this was a good reason but if the game was harder and you required an help for real.

[sleepychewbacca]

Just now, bibmobello said:

ahahah this was a good reason but if the game was harder and you required an help for real.

Still wouldn't? 

A lot of my playing is solo, and when I'm forced to play with pubs, it's an every-man-for-himself. 

Want me to change my perception? Gonna have to rework the game from the ground up. What incentivises me (other than being morally good) to help someone else? 

[bibmobello]

8 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

Still wouldn't? 

A lot of my playing is solo, and when I'm forced to play with pubs, it's an every-man-for-himself. 

Want me to change my perception? Gonna have to rework the game from the ground up. What incentivises me (other than being morally good) to help someone else? 

I am not good at all and i revive only people deserving that because i am not Jesus Christ. I only mean that if you need someone else to survive, you are incentivized to revive them.

Edited August 23, 2019 by bibmobello

[(PSN)thowed]

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Having actually played it through, it's a souls-like game.

Looter shooter is the last thing the game is. Hell, if this is a looter shooter then Dark Souls is a looter stabber.

This is true.  I have the game also.  It's a great game but it's not a looter shooter and has nothing in common with Warframe besides being a video game.

[bibmobello]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)thowed said:

This is true.  I have the game also.  It's a great game but it's not a looter shooter and has nothing in common with Warframe besides being a video game.

No one said it's similar to warframe... If we need the exact definition it's a action shooter survival.

Edited August 23, 2019 by bibmobello

[(PSN)thowed]

1 minute ago, bibmobello said:

No one said it's similar to warframe...

Then why take notes from it?  Wanna give some changes centered around Mario Bros. next?

[Frennick]

Boosting the difficulty in Warframe is only something I'd see as an upside at "endgame", where people recruit each other for matches. Not for randoms.

The main reason is no dedicated servers. When you're thrown in with randoms, there is the odd chance the host is a potato and it will either result in a painful gameplay with added difficulty, or people just outright quit from start if the host is bad. Random matches would also be seriously hurt, if difficulty is too hard, since the meta might change in terms of CC and healing warframes being required.

Putting difficulty at endgame matches is far better, because it's available for those who really want that style. It's fairly clearly not a lot of people are bothered with difficult games, simply because of the progression vs. stonewalling effort. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

6 hours ago, bibmobello said:

Remnant: From the Ashes a game from where DE can take inspiration.

i mean :

1) Big enemies don't die in 1 shot and they are hard as hell.

Oh? You mean like how the Wolf used to be? Yeah I didn't really mind him breaking the monotony of all the levelling I was doing at the time. Gave me a couple of minutes of distraction whenever he showed up. Just beating on him as he howled... 

Oh that's weird. I think - I think I remember something - not howling, more like wailing? Crying? Screeching! There was SO. MUCH. SCREECHING!!! 

OMG I'm having flashbacks, dozens of threads all filled with the same people, screeching and saying how the Wolf was impossible to beat! All saying how their mediocre weapons were supposed to be godlike, and how much damage they normally do, without grasping that damage types were important in this fight. Talking about how much the rewards sucked, while happily paying big stacks of platinum to buy the sucky rewards. Talking about how it's not difficult to kill him, and proudly proclaiming that they abort mission every time he shows up, because they stand no chance of killing him any time in the foreseeable future. 

 

Yeah OP, I don't think that you've thought this through. If people went nuts because of a single "hard" enemy, with predictable weaknesses, what do you think would happen if we had multiple? 

[Drachnyn]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

Oh? You mean like how the Wolf used to be? Yeah I didn't really mind him breaking the monotony of all the levelling I was doing at the time. Gave me a couple of minutes of distraction whenever he showed up. Just beating on him as he howled... 

Oh that's weird. I think - I think I remember something - not howling, more like wailing? Crying? Screeching! There was SO. MUCH. SCREECHING!!! 

OMG I'm having flashbacks, dozens of threads all filled with the same people, screeching and saying how the Wolf was impossible to beat! All saying how their mediocre weapons were supposed to be godlike, and how much damage they normally do, without grasping that damage types were important in this fight. Talking about how much the rewards sucked, while happily paying big stacks of platinum to buy the sucky rewards. Talking about how it's not difficult to kill him, and proudly proclaiming that they abort mission every time he shows up, because they stand no chance of killing him any time in the foreseeable future. 

 

Yeah OP, I don't think that you've thought this through. If people went nuts because of a single "hard" enemy, with predictable weaknesses, what do you think would happen if we had multiple? 

I'd argue that wolf wasnt a very interesting fight either, for me atleast, because i would just facetank him and then proceed to punch him until he went away. At that point he was just a bulletsponge. His adds in the later stages of the first season didnt really do anything either since Nezha was my main frame for regular missions and he could just throw them on his spears. So it was back to bulletsponging again.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

8 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I'd argue that wolf wasnt a very interesting fight either, for me atleast, because i would just facetank him and then proceed to punch him until he went away. At that point he was just a bulletsponge. His adds in the later stages of the first season didnt really do anything either since Nezha was my main frame for regular missions and he could just throw them on his spears. So it was back to bulletsponging again.

So.... He didn't die in one shot? And he was, by comparison to everything else that you ran into at least, hard? 

And this didn't make you, happy? 

 

Excellent? Thanks for confirming the points I was making. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

So.... He didn't die in one shot? And he was, by comparison to everything else that you ran into at least, hard? 

And this didn't make you, happy? 

 

Excellent? Thanks for confirming the points I was making. 

I wouldnt call him hard (for me personally) because he wasnt really threat, he just took long to kill. There was no finesse involved in the fight, no waiting for attack windows, no targetting of weakpoints, no learning of attack patterns, no dodging. For me those make a fight hard, and since we are already in a souls-like thread, those make the really hard boss fights in Dark souls 3 very enjoyable for me. Wolf doesnt have any of that. If you have good enough gear and a frame that is suited for the fight then he just isnt a threat.

[Gabbynaru]

Or how about you go play Remnant and let the rest of us enjoy Warframe for what it is? If I wanted Dark Souls, I'd play Dark Souls (NOT Remnant). But I'm here to play Warframe, and that's what I get to play.

[844448]

6 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I wouldnt call him hard (for me personally) because he wasnt really threat, he just took long to kill. There was no finesse involved in the fight, no waiting for attack windows, no targetting of weakpoints, no learning of attack patterns, no dodging. For me those make a fight hard, and since we are already in a souls-like thread, those make the really hard boss fights in Dark souls 3 very enjoyable for me. Wolf doesnt have any of that. If you have good enough gear and a frame that is suited for the fight then he just isnt a threat.

I fought him using equinox that time with no arcanes, one swing and I'm on the edge of death so I was parkouring all over the room, sort of challenging back then

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

Just now, Drachnyn said:

I wouldnt call him hard (for me personally) because he wasnt really threat, he just took long to kill. There was no finesse involved in the fight, no waiting for attack windows, no targetting of weakpoints, no learning of attack patterns, no dodging. For me those make a fight hard, and since we are already in a souls-like thread, those make the really hard boss fights in Dark souls 3 very enjoyable for me. Wolf doesnt have any of that. If you have good enough gear and a frame that is suited for the fight then he just isnt a threat.

So let's go from the other side.

Would you say that he was easier than any other single enemy on the mission where you encountered him, at the time when you encountered him? I strongly doubt that that was the case. So... 

And it's really not going to work if you proclaim that you facetanked him, in a frame that has so much damage reduction that it allows you to facetank him, and then say "I didn't have to try to dodge". You also used a frame that made it possible to hard cc his adds for the entire duration of the fight with a single button, and you said that's exactly what you did, but you complain about the lack of finesse needed?

Yeah. I'm sure that you can understand how that really isn't meshing well. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

So let's go from the other side.

Would you say that he was easier than any other single enemy on the mission where you encountered him, at the time when you encountered him? I strongly doubt that that was the case. So... 

And it's really not going to work if you proclaim that you facetanked him, in a frame that has so much damage reduction that it allows you to facetank him, and then say "I didn't have to try to dodge". You also used a frame that made it possible to hard cc his adds for the entire duration of the fight with a single button, and you said that's exactly what you did, but you complain about the lack of finesse needed?

Yeah. I'm sure that you can understand how that really isn't meshing well. 

He is more on the line of a gear check, not the enjoyable kind of difficulty. I encountered him once as mesa and all i had to do was to keep rolling away and shoot because he would jump to you faster than his adds got. Again no finesse, I got him to move, shot my rubico a few times and then moved again. What attack he was doing didnt matter.

And no, of course he wasnt easier than the rest of the level. But there is a difference between enjoyable difficulty and just increasing the enemy's EHP and damage.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

30 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

He is more on the line of a gear check, not the enjoyable kind of difficulty. I encountered him once as mesa and all i had to do was to keep rolling away and shoot because he would jump to you faster than his adds got. Again no finesse, I got him to move, shot my rubico a few times and then moved again. What attack he was doing didnt matter.

Wait, you didn't facetank him in Mesa? That's weird, you had to change your tactics based on the situation? Moving out of the way of his attacks, so that they didn't hurt you, that sounds a lot like dodging, especially since he's primarily a melee range enemy. So it's not surprising to learn that if you stood away from him while shooting, the attacks did not damage you, is it? 

Sounds a lot like what this person said:

42 minutes ago, 844448 said:

I fought him using equinox that time with no arcanes, one swing and I'm on the edge of death so I was parkouring all over the room, sort of challenging back then

So we know that dodging was important. As was dealing with the adds. 

Of course understanding our enemy, and ourself, allowed each of us to deal with the enemy. Knowing that shooting him in the head was a bad idea, and changing from the usual aim point, because his weakpoint was "everything but his head" while apparently simple, was something that some people seemed to struggle to grasp. 

30 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

And no, of course he wasnt easier than the rest of the level. But there is a difference between enjoyable difficulty and just increasing the enemy's EHP and damage.

Oh good. Now that we're on the same page, and agree that he was indeed harder than the average enemies we faced, I have to ask why you think that we're all going to enjoy the same thing? There's no single recipe for "this will make it enjoyable", in our case I suspect that any variation that includes "harder" automatically means "less enjoyable" for many people, based on what I've seen on these forums. 

The suggestion in the OP was "harder". The Wolf was objectively, "harder". 

Edited August 23, 2019 by (PS4)guzmantt1977
Minor correction

[Drachnyn]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

Wait, you didn't facetank him in Mesa? That's weird, you had to change your tactics based on the situation? Moving out of the way of his attacks, so that they didn't hurt you, that sounds a lot like dodging, especially since he's primarily a melee range enemy. So it's not surprising to learn that if you stood away from him while shooting, the attacks did not damage you, is it? 

Sounds a lot like what this person said:

So we know that dodging was important. As was dealing with the adds. 

Of course understanding our enemy, and ourself, allowed each of us to deal with the enemy. Knowing that shooting him in the head was a bad idea, and changing from the usual aim point, because his weakpoint was "everything but his head" while apparently simple, was something that some people seemed to struggle to grasp. 

Oh good. Now that we're on the same page, and agree that he was indeed harder than the average enemies we faced, I have to ask why you think that we're all going to enjoy the same thing? There's no single recipe for "this will make it enjoyable", in our case I suspect that any variation that includes "harder" automatically means "less enjoyable" for many people, based on what I've seen on tgses forums. 

The suggestion in the OP was "harder". The Wolf was objectively, "harder". 

His difficulty purely came from his damage numbers and EHP numbers. Just maths alone doesnt make really good difficulty. I know I sound a bit elitist right here but dodging him didnt require a great deal of skill here. The skill needed with wolf amounted to roll away if he gets close. A lot of darksouls bosses not only require you to understand the boss attacks but also to recognize them, they require you to understand how many attacks you can get in and they require you to dodge at the right time, because both dodging too early and dodging too late will get you hit. Wolf is not built around that, the entire game isnt.

So if the goal with the wolf was to make a bulletsponge then he was a success. But I have rarely seen people praise bosses for just being an ultimately easy to evade bulletsponge.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

His difficulty purely came from his damage numbers and EHP numbers. Just maths alone doesnt make really good difficulty. I know I sound a bit elitist right here but dodging him didnt require a great deal of skill here. The skill needed with wolf amounted to roll away if he gets close. A lot of darksouls bosses not only require you to understand the boss attacks but also to recognize them, they require you to understand how many attacks you can get in and they require you to dodge at the right time, because both dodging too early and dodging too late will get you hit. 

He was difficult... but only because of... which isn't real difficulty... because it wasn't difficult in the way that the enemy in a different game is difficult... which is what I enjoy? 

The counter to which is:

9 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Wolf is not built around that, the entire game isnt.

So why expect people who are here because we want to play this game, to want to play an enemy copied and pasted from some other game, that many of us don't want to play? 

12 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

So if the goal with the wolf was to make a bulletsponge then he was a success. But I have rarely seen people praise bosses for just being an ultimately easy to evade bulletsponge.

Oh I think that you meant to say "harder", which is what we've already agreed he was. 😉

[bibmobello]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Wait, you didn't facetank him in Mesa? That's weird, you had to change your tactics based on the situation? Moving out of the way of his attacks, so that they didn't hurt you, that sounds a lot like dodging, especially since he's primarily a melee range enemy. So it's not surprising to learn that if you stood away from him while shooting, the attacks did not damage you, is it? 

Sounds a lot like what this person said:

So we know that dodging was important. As was dealing with the adds. 

Of course understanding our enemy, and ourself, allowed each of us to deal with the enemy. Knowing that shooting him in the head was a bad idea, and changing from the usual aim point, because his weakpoint was "everything but his head" while apparently simple, was something that some people seemed to struggle to grasp. 

Oh good. Now that we're on the same page, and agree that he was indeed harder than the average enemies we faced, I have to ask why you think that we're all going to enjoy the same thing? There's no single recipe for "this will make it enjoyable", in our case I suspect that any variation that includes "harder" automatically means "less enjoyable" for many people, based on what I've seen on these forums. 

The suggestion in the OP was "harder". The Wolf was objectively, "harder". 

 

1) Watch some video about remnant and watch the big enemy patterns, they are not hard but scary and disturbing, you have to sweat to defeat them

2) Watch some videos(because i think you don't play WF but writing on the forum) about WF heavy units and start to laugh...

The wolf at max level  died literally in less than one sec with a zero foma baruuk or with maiming strike and a pure crit rad weapon. With Ivara is even more stupid because he doesn't attack at all  but i can kill him with one shot in the meantime of an ALT CLick...

The only "difficulty" is when he disappears cause of his shabby AI. Adding weird scripted limitations as invincible minions or tricky malus on headshots, or forcing you to bring a particular frame and weapon is frustrating but not harder, considering you have to read the wiki to understand some obscure new rule...

I thought to discuss civilly about some new possible  ideas to be implemented in WF but the guy at the beginning was right...

Edited August 23, 2019 by bibmobello

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

1) Watch some video about remnant and watch the big enemy patterns, they are not hard but scary and disturbing, you have to sweat to defeat them

Watch video of a game that I don't want to play, which is in a style/genre that doesn't interest me? Uh.... Why would a person do such a thing? 

7 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

2) Watch some videos(because i think you don't play WF but writing on the forum) about WF heavy units and start to laugh...

I supposedly do this thing called "work", where I have been told that I am not really allowed to play video games on my PS4 (I did it a few times), but they seem to accept that I may be doing something productive while typing away on a keyboard or phone, so they hesitate to tell me not to. (Plus they usually seem to prefer when I'm all chill and not actually working hard, because then they feel like they should try to keep up, which generally doesn't work out well for anyone involved.) 

Again, watching a video of someone else playing, isn't something I generally do. It's like watching someone else eat cake. I'm left generally unsatisfied at the end of the experience. 

16 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

The wolf at max level  died literally in less than one sec with a zero foma baruuk or with maiming strike and a pure crit rad weapon. With Ivara is even more stupid because he don't attack at all  but i can kill him with one shot in the meantime of an ALT CLick...

And yet the forums were filled with the screeching of people who complained about how long it took to kill him with their "godlike" status based gear..... 

18 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

The only "difficulty" is when he disappears cause of his shabby AI. Adding weird scripted limitations as invincible minions or tricky malus on headshots, forcing you to read the wiki doesn't make a game harder.

Did you really need to read the wiki to notice a difference in the numbers between head and body shots? Or figure out that enemies who don't take any damage when you attack them, weren't taking damage? Or see what damage types worked best? 

[bibmobello]

Just now, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Watch video of a game that I don't want to play, which is in a style/genre that doesn't interest me? Uh.... Why would a person do such a thing? 

Because the idea of this post was to get some inspirational ideas to be(possibly) inserted in this game but considering the dislike, apathy and toxicity of some users i will start with my preferred hobby, the ignore list. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

Just now, bibmobello said:

Because the idea of this post was to get some inspirational ideas to be(possibly) inserted in this game but considering the dislike, apathy and toxicity of some users i will start with my preferred hobby, the ignore list. 

So people should support the attempt to insert aspects of a style/genre that they don't enjoy? 

The wolf was objectively "harder", and typically didn't "die in one shot". People complained. Repeatedly. Loudly.