CHANGE MY MIND: Cephalon Samodeus And Combined Forces of Cetus & Fortuna Surpass The Orokin Empire At Its Peak And Can Solo The Sentients Easily!

[VotumPrime]

Zaws. Kitguns. Magus Lockdown. Rivens.

A bunch of hill billies and debt slaves will do what a mighty ancient empire never could and make more powerful and deadlier weapons than the Orokin Empire defeat their greatest enemy the Sentients at the same time.

For those of you who don't know what Magus Lockdown is:

 

Go. Change my mind. We're just lucky Nef wasn't smart enough to put Eudico and the Solaris in charge of weapons manufacturing.

[Pie_mastyr]

sure they can make great weapons, but they are all meatsacks. Horribly vulnerable meatsacks...

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

Change my mind.

Residents of Cetus/Fortuna aren't capable of utilising void magic.

[Olphalarepth]

7 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

 

A bunch of hill billies and debt slaves will do what a mighty ancient empire never could and make more powerful and deadlier weapons than the Orokin Empire defeat their greatest enemy the Sentients at the same time.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 minute ago, VotumPrime said:

Zaws. Kitguns. Magus Lockdown. Rivens.

A bunch of hill billies and debt slaves will do what a mighty ancient empire never could and make more powerful and deadlier weapons than the Orokin Empire defeat their greatest enemy the Sentients at the same time.

For those of you who don't know what Magus Lockdown is:

 

Go. Change my mind. We're just lucky Nef wasn't smart enough to put Eudico and the Solaris in charge of weapons manufacturing.

"People who can barely manage to scavenge the cast offs of a long-dead advanced civilisation, are obviously superior to said advanced civilisation, change my mind." 

 

Seriously if that's what you're really bringing to the table, you are obviously just here to farm ha-has. 

[VotumPrime]

5 minutes ago, Pie_mastyr said:

sure they can make great weapons, but they are all meatsacks. Horribly vulnerable meatsacks...

Tell that to Pedlek.

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Residents of Cetus/Fortuna aren't capable of utilising void magic.

Cause they have something better like the Unum and they can probably find a way to use Magus Lockdown without void magic.

Edited September 16, 2019 by VotumPrime

[VotumPrime]

4 minutes ago, Olphalarepth said:

Deadly serious.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

"People who can barely manage to scavenge the cast offs of a long-dead advanced civilisation, are obviously superior to said advanced civilisation, change my mind." 

 

Seriously if that's what you're really bringing to the table, you are obviously just here to farm ha-has. 

We need them more than they need us and Zaws and Kitguns aren't made from long-dead advanced civilization and neither were the Magus Lockdowns.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

Cause they have something better like the Unum and they can probably find a way to use Magus Lockdown without void magic.

Thats just as plausible as me actually being a monkey.

[VotumPrime]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Thats just as plausible as me actually being a monkey.

You mean you're not a monkey?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 minute ago, VotumPrime said:

Deadly serious.

We need them more than they need us and Zaws and Kitguns aren't made from long-dead advanced civilization and neither were the Magus Lockdowns.

And that explains why they have to hire and pay us mercenaries. 

Seriously you need to ask your dealer what he's been doing recently. 

[VotumPrime]

Just now, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And that explains why they have to hire and pay us mercenaries. 

Seriously you need to ask your dealer what he's been doing recently. 

Well if it weren't for the fact that we just can't die, they might have risked their own lives, but the fact that the most effective weapons and things in the game right now isn't Prime weapons but Zaws and Kitguns held together with spit and duct tape can only mean that if they are given time, they would become something that surpasses the Orokin Empire and they wouldn't really need our help.

[HugintheCrow]

Gameplay =/= Lore and Plot

 

There is dozens of games where you can (for example) cheese supposedly unwinable fights, which technically breaks plot (e.g. You can win a fight against a dark jedi in Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast,  a fight where canonically he owns you so hard you nearly die, the cutscene plays as if you lost anyway). Who cares, plot goes on anyways.

 

It doesn't matter how powerful the Tenno are ingame, I can like oneshot every weakpoint of sargas ruk, essentially killing him in three shots. Lorewise, the same sargas ruk would be strong enough to kill me, for good.

Alad V and his Zanuka are pushovers to anyone who has good gear, and yet lorewise, Zanuka is incredibly powerful and could probably destroy whole squads of tenno.

Phorid was capable of destroying several Tenno cells (which is what Lotus tells you before you face it), and yet we can one shot it.

Edited September 16, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[VotumPrime]

1 minute ago, HugintheCrow said:

Gameplay =/= Lore and Plot

 

There is dozens of games where you can (for example) cheese supposedly unwinable fights, which technically break plot. Who cares, plot goes on anyways.

 

It doesn't matter how powerful the Tenno are ingame, I can like oneshot every weakpoint of sargas ruk, essentially killing him in three shots. Lorewise, the same sargas ruk would be strong enough to kill me, for good.

Alad V and his Zanuka are pushovers to anyone who has good gear, and yet lorewise, Zanuka is incredibly powerful and could probably destroy whole squads of tenno.

Phorid was capable of destroying several Tenno cells (which is what Lotus tells you before you face it), and yet we can one shot it.

This has nothing to do with lore right now.

I believe with all the things that they have, they can easily surpass the Orokin Empire and defeat the Sentients.

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, VotumPrime said:

This has nothing to do with lore right now.

I believe with all the things that they have, they can easily surpass the Orokin Empire and defeat the Sentients.

It has everything to do with the lore. As I said, gameplay is irrelevant.

Your question is: "can they defeat sentients". It is a lore question.

Gameplay wise, noone will ever defeat sentients, because Warframe is not a plot driven game, it is not supposed to end. It doesn't end. If we defeated sentients we couldn't farm their drops anymore, because they would be dead. Hence, we'll never "defeat" them in-game.

You kill a boss, and then you can kill them again, effectively making them undefeatable.

But if we do take lore into account, then no, some random ostrons can never even win a fight against a single sentient.

[so_many_watermelons]

1 minute ago, VotumPrime said:

This has nothing to do with lore right now.

I believe with all the things that they have, they can easily surpass the Orokin Empire and defeat the Sentients.

Okay, well, until we find out whatever the hell the zero-tech that was mentioned in the Mag Prime archive, as well as all the other high-technology the Orokin used before they had to resort to the older weapon designs we use now against the Sentient, the discussion ends there. 

Still dumb of you to talk purely in gameplay terms though, considering we wouldn't be able to defeat anything in the game with an invincibility state if they decided never to leave it. Either you're talking with lore, or it's just bullS#&$ memes, like you are doing with "change my mind". In which case, you still lose against the aforementioned invincibility states enemies have.

[VotumPrime]

Just now, HugintheCrow said:

It has everything to do with the lore. As I said, gameplay is irrelevant.

Your question is: "can they defeat sentients". It is a lore question.

Gameplay wise, noone will ever defeat sentients, because Warframe is not a plot driven game, it is not supposed to end. It doesn't end. If we defeated sentients we couldn't farm their drops anymore, because they would be dead. Hence, we'll never "defeat" them in-game.

You kill a boss, and then you can kill them again, effectively making them undefeatable.

But if we do take lore into account, then no, some random ostrons can never even win a fight against a single sentient.

Are their weapons more powerful than the Primes?

Are their arcanes more effective against them than any of the weapons that the Orokin had?

[VotumPrime]

4 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

Okay, well, until we find out whatever the hell the zero-tech that was mentioned in the Mag Prime archive, as well as all the other high-technology the Orokin used before they had to resort to the older weapon designs we use now against the Sentient, the discussion ends there. 

Still dumb of you to talk purely in gameplay terms though, considering we wouldn't be able to defeat anything in the game with an invincibility state if they decided never to leave it. Either you're talking with lore, or it's just bullS#&$ memes, like you are doing with "change my mind". In which case, you still lose against the aforementioned invincibility states enemies have.

No no no. That's just Tenno-arrogance right there. If Cetus and Fortuna never existed and we never got Kitguns, Zaws, or their Arcanes and Amps, do you really believe we would still stand a chance?

I need you to think. I need you to wrack your melon around this.

Edited September 16, 2019 by VotumPrime

[HugintheCrow]

5 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

Are their weapons more powerful than the Primes?

Are their arcanes more effective against them than any of the weapons that the Orokin had?

Lorewise (the only relevant angle):

No. Ostrons do not wield weapons, only Hok is seen holding a Zaw. Even if we assume they hunt with some rudimentary trash-zaws, that's still not enough.

They cannot use arcanes as they require the void power held by Tenno.

Gameplaywise:

The Ostrons cannot move, they are simple props sitting in stationary positions assigned to them and cannot perform any attacks, making them useless.

 

Also, how about you read the comments you reply to? You completely ignored all points and just repeated what you already said.

Edited September 16, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[VotumPrime]

1 minute ago, HugintheCrow said:

Lorewise (the only relevant angle):

No. Ostrons do not wield weapons, only Hok is seen holding a Zaw. Even if we assume they hunt with some rudimentary trash-zaws, that's still not enough.

They cannot use arcanes as they require the void power held by Tenno.

Gameplaywise:

The Ostrons cannot move, they are simple props sitting in stationary positions assigned to them and cannot perform any attacks, making them useless.

Then lorewise do they surpass the Orokin and the Sentient in weaponry?

[HugintheCrow]

Just now, VotumPrime said:

Then lorewise do they surpass the Orokin and the Sentient in weaponry?

I already said no. Of course not.

[VotumPrime]

Just now, HugintheCrow said:

I already said no. Of course not.

Why are Zaws and Kitguns being used to one shot eidolons and level 100+ mobs then?

[HugintheCrow]

Just now, VotumPrime said:

Why are Zaws and Kitguns being used to one shot eidolons and level 100+ mobs then?

Because that's gameplay that has nothing to do with the lore.

Just because you can go and kill like 8x3 or whatever during the night, doesn't mean that's actually what happens in the lore. Consider that we "capture" eidolons. So, if we combined gameplay and lore, you'd be only able to fight the eidolons literally ONCE per account. That's it.

You captured the Hydrolyst, it's defeated and done, you can no longer farm it. That's what you're doing, you're conflatiing gameplay mechanics and lore (out-of-universe and in-universe).

Just like in Table top rpgs, just cause your gm told you you will get captured, doesn't mean your character is allowed to know that he will get captured, etc.

[VotumPrime]

Just now, HugintheCrow said:

Because that's gameplay that has nothing to do with the lore.

Just because you can go and kill like 8x3 or whatever during the night, doesn't mean that's actually what happens in the lore. Consider that we "capture" eidolons. So, if we combined gameplay and lore, you'd be only able to fight the eidolons literally ONCE per account. That's it.

You captured the Hydrolyst, it's defeated and done, you can no longer farm it. That's what you're doing, you're conflatiing gameplay mechanics and lore (out-of-universe and in-universe).

Just like in Table top rpgs, just cause your gm told you you will get captured, doesn't mean your character is allowed to know that he will get captured, etc.

Tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk. You aren't being very convincing lad.

[sly1171]

The reason the Sentients were so deadly for the Orokin was because the Orokin were more advanced and the Sentients were able to turn their technology against them. It is precisely because the Ostrons and Solaris are low-tech that they are better able to fight and kill the Sentients. The Sentients have no advantage since they can't turn their tech against them.

[HugintheCrow]

2 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

Tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk. You aren't being very convincing lad.

It's not me. You just can't get things through your thick skull. There is a reason nearly noone responds to your spam threads, you know.

You come up with a headcanon and then defend it as if it was gonna kill you if you realize you were mistaken.

Edited September 16, 2019 by HugintheCrow