CHANGE MY MIND: Cephalon Samodeus And Combined Forces of Cetus & Fortuna Surpass The Orokin Empire At Its Peak And Can Solo The Sentients Easily!

[VotumPrime]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Because we use a mod system that is literally a hybrid of Orokin tech and Sentient Adaptation to push them to power levels beyond ANYTHING the other races wouldn’t dare even attempt?

...and then we enhance them further with our Warframe’s power and Void energy?

I think we need to finally learn what mods really are.

[TheGrimCorsair]

A single fight? Maybe.

Trying to accomplish strategic objectives related to defending noncoms across the origin system without becoming heavily depleted of resources and personnel due to being stretched too thin? Seem like a stretch.

[FerockQuartz]

13 hours ago, VotumPrime said:

Monkey. I commend you for going so hard against common sense and all logic, but Natah's mother is a wormship. I never said she was the one in the codex entry specifically. I said that she is of the similar species and the Tenno have defeated her kind before.

You find DeMonkey hard against common sense and all logic but I find you no logic at all... you totally ignored our discussion and by bringing way far beyond points asked - none were answerable by your egotistic perspective, you make lore out of no where and when subjected by other people, you somehow divert other topic elsewhere and neglect other people's points and you think you've gotten away?

Dude... Its real people here not some A.I. you often treat as your virtual friends/sims or whatsoever so be real... You talk logic but don't know how to give and take logic; All you do is give but not accepting ideas way more tangible than yours -  your defense is crap totally.

And I don't need Google Translate to know what language you're using, I'm pretty sure you lack so much understanding of how the dialect runs out here; judging your response which likely irritates the majority. *wake up Tenno*

 

CHANGE MY MIND: Cephalon Samodeus And Combined Forces of Cetus & Fortuna Surpass The Orokin Empire At Its Peak And Can Solo The Sentients Easily!

PS: Grammatically speaking, you already failed from the start...

Edited September 17, 2019 by FerockQuartz

[VotumPrime]

7 hours ago, FerockQuartz said:

You find DeMonkey hard against common sense and all logic but I find you no logic at all... you totally ignored our discussion and by bringing way far beyond points asked - none were answerable by your egotistic perspective, you make lore out of no where and when subjected by other people, you somehow divert other topic elsewhere and neglect other people's points and you think you've gotten away?

Dude... Its real people here not some A.I. you often treat as your virtual friends/sims or whatsoever so be real... You talk logic but don't know how to give and take logic; All you do is give but not accepting ideas way more tangible than yours -  your defense is crap totally.

And I don't need Google Translate to know what language you're using, I'm pretty sure you lack so much understanding of how the dialect runs out here; judging your response which likely irritates the majority. *wake up Tenno*

 

CHANGE MY MIND: Cephalon Samodeus And Combined Forces of Cetus & Fortuna Surpass The Orokin Empire At Its Peak And Can Solo The Sentients Easily!

PS: Grammatically speaking, you already failed from the start...

I knew you were using Google translate this whole time.

[FerockQuartz]

1 hour ago, VotumPrime said:

I knew you were using Google translate this whole time.

IRL: Trumptionary vs Google Translate

[can't wait for it to happen  Its happening...]

Edited September 17, 2019 by FerockQuartz

[GrayArchon]

On 2019-09-16 at 1:42 PM, VotumPrime said:

Based upon how Natah's mother looks like a worm shaped ship.

If you watch the TennoCon 2017 Art Panel (my writeup here), they discuss the first Sentient sent to the Tau System and how it was massive, so much so that the Sentients used it as the framework for all their later works (cf Natah: "My mother [was] a carpenter"). The concept art for the Sentient Outposts look very similar to the images we've seen of Natah's mother. I believe this "First Sentient" is Natah's mother, for several reasons:

• It was initially implied (Natah and Second Dream quests) that Sentients produce children asexually. With the revelation that Natah has both a father and a mother, this may have been retconned, or it may be more nuanced: Hunhow is Natah's direct father, but the First Sentient is the mother of all Sentients, and thus of Natah as well.
• The visual similarities, as noted before.
• The TennoCon 2018 trailer shows Natah's mother is absolutely massive and also commands a large army of Sentients. This would make sense if she were the mother of all Sentients.

23 hours ago, VotumPrime said:

What else could Natah's mother be other than a wormship? She certainly matches the description in Mag Prime's Codex entry.

The description in Mag Prime's Codex entry: "The countless articulating worm-ships of our enemy, ringed in glowing discs, undulating and heat-bursting the surviving soldiers like me."

• "countless": if Natah's mother has such high authority, why are there countless similar Sentients?
• "articulating": sure, it applies. It applies to essentially every Sentient we've seen, though.
• "ringed in glowing discs": does not apply
• "undulating": impossible to verify, as we haven't seen Natah's mother in motion
• "heat-bursting the surviving soldiers like me": the fact that these worm-ships are going around and killing individual human soldiers gives the impression that they're small in size and not really important.

23 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

we've seen all sorts of sizes of eidolon, from the conculyst to the terralyst to the dead one strewn across the planes

Technically, the Conculysts are Hunhow's fragments, not Eidolons.

23 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

And if not, perhaps consider that you're getting ahead of yourself with all this lore talk.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a pattern with @VotumPrime.

Edited September 17, 2019 by GrayArchon
formatting

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, GrayArchon said:

Technically, the Conculysts are Hunhow's fragments, not Eidolons.

Yeah, I meant to say Sentient as opposed to Eidolon.

I blame alcohol.

[GrayArchon]

On 2019-09-16 at 10:31 AM, VotumPrime said:

The Corpus have created Nullifiers, Demolysts, Bursas, Ambulas, Profit-taker and Exploiter Orb

The Demolysts and the Orb Mothers were made using Sentient technology, so it seems disingenuous to call them Corpus tech in this conversation.

On 2019-09-16 at 11:09 AM, FerockQuartz said:

and its from a Sentient... you'd probably know Alad V's contact with Natah & Sentients didn't favored him very well?

The Machinist, the non-Amalgam version of this unit, also wields the same weapon with the same Codex text. The flamethrower appears to be a Corpus design, not a Sentient one.

On 2019-09-16 at 11:57 AM, VotumPrime said:

But aren't our bodies basically astral projections now as of the events in War Within? Like if our operator body gets hurt, it just warps back into the Warframe.

This isn't clear, as it has never been referenced in dialogue or text. It's a gameplay mechanic at the moment, so one should be wary about drawing lore conclusions from it.

[Atsia]

15 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

This isn't clear, as it has never been referenced in dialogue or text. It's a gameplay mechanic at the moment, so one should be wary about drawing lore conclusions from it.

The only indication we have is the Elder Queen saying we were there in the flesh during the War Withing, before you fight the Guardians.

[iLightning13]

On 2019-09-16 at 2:10 AM, so_many_watermelons said:

zero-tech

I think that's referring to the fact that Orokin soldiers stopped using energy weapons to fight the Sentients. That's why Prime and Tenno weapons are projectile based - because they were made to fight the Sentients, who nullified tech-based weapons. That's also why swords and katanas were so useful, and why the Warframes were instrumental in beating them because

 

they're biological as they're made from helminth.

Edited September 18, 2019 by iLightning13

[FerockQuartz]

26 minutes ago, iLightning13 said:

they're biological as they're made from helminth.

Is anybody not bothered by Helminth which generally means 'worm'?

[iLightning13]

5 minutes ago, FerockQuartz said:

Is anybody not bothered by Helminth which generally means 'worm'?

WORMS FOR THE WORM GOD

Edited September 18, 2019 by iLightning13

[VotumPrime]

18 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

If you watch the TennoCon 2017 Art Panel (my writeup here), they discuss the first Sentient sent to the Tau System and how it was massive, so much so that the Sentients used it as the framework for all their later works (cf Natah: "My mother [was] a carpenter"). The concept art for the Sentient Outposts look very similar to the images we've seen of Natah's mother. I believe this "First Sentient" is Natah's mother, for several reasons:

• It was initially implied (Natah and Second Dream quests) that Sentients produce children asexually. With the revelation that Natah has both a father and a mother, this may have been retconned, or it may be more nuanced: Hunhow is Natah's direct father, but the First Sentient is the mother of all Sentients, and thus of Natah as well.
• The visual similarities, as noted before.
• The TennoCon 2018 trailer shows Natah's mother is absolutely massive and also commands a large army of Sentients. This would make sense if she were the mother of all Sentients.

The description in Mag Prime's Codex entry: "The countless articulating worm-ships of our enemy, ringed in glowing discs, undulating and heat-bursting the surviving soldiers like me."

• "countless": if Natah's mother has such high authority, why are there countless similar Sentients?
• "articulating": sure, it applies. It applies to essentially every Sentient we've seen, though.
• "ringed in glowing discs": does not apply
• "undulating": impossible to verify, as we haven't seen Natah's mother in motion
• "heat-bursting the surviving soldiers like me": the fact that these worm-ships are going around and killing individual human soldiers gives the impression that they're small in size and not really important.

Technically, the Conculysts are Hunhow's fragments, not Eidolons.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a pattern with @VotumPrime.

I honestly wish DE would flesh these things out themselves but Natah’s mother is a carpenter so she’s the one producing those armies of big Sentients as their super carrier. I believe her mother is the one that carries the army of Sentients, Hunhow and Natah, along with dozens of other wormships from Tau to the Origin system.

I wouldn’t say that they reproduce asexually if there’s a mother and a father. Someone else once compared them to a hive of bees or some other insect colony. From what I can understand, those Sentients aren’t actually Sentient like Natah, Hunhow, or the Mother, they’re all basically fragments. Since Natah’s mother is a huge ship, she would naturally be able to produce Sentients that are also quite large as well.

Naturally, Natah’s mother is definitely not the only wormship and she only controls the ones that she produces on her own, her own fragments. I notice this trend going on where each Sentient Sentient with their own minds and conscious are able to produce fragments and have their own unique appearance. Like Natah’s brother.

Also, be careful not to read only parts of the Mag Prime codex, you need the whole thing or else you will take what they mean out of context. While people have very different ways of interpreting literature and meanings, the context should still be the same.

[VotumPrime]

1 hour ago, iLightning13 said:

WORMS FOR THE WORM GOD

Those are my favorite enemies in the Halo franchise cause of how fun they are to fight and because of what they can become when they fuse a lot of them together into a huge colossal swarm.

[VotumPrime]

2 hours ago, iLightning13 said:

I think that's referring to the fact that Orokin soldiers stopped using energy weapons to fight the Sentients. That's why Prime and Tenno weapons are projectile based - because they were made to fight the Sentients, who nullified tech-based weapons. That's also why swords and katanas were so useful, and why the Warframes were instrumental in beating them because

  Hide contents

they're biological as they're made from helminth.

I believe the real reason why they were so crucial was the fact that they could not die. It takes a lot to destroy a fully maxed out and modded Warframe but if the Warframe dies, it can be revived.

It takes too much time to grow and train more soldiers for the empire, but it’s easy to mass produce clones of Warframes for the Tenno to use and if they lose their Warframe, they can just replace it with another one.

[iLightning13]

15 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

I believe the real reason why they were so crucial was the fact that they could not die. It takes a lot to destroy a fully maxed out and modded Warframe but if the Warframe dies, it can be revived.

It takes too much time to grow and train more soldiers for the empire, but it’s easy to mass produce clones of Warframes for the Tenno to use and if they lose their Warframe, they can just replace it with another one.

Watch Ballas' Vitruvian again.

Ballas: "Our hubris shone like a black star... for our technology, our war-machines were your kin. How easily you turned them against us. We were forced to older means. Not circuits, nor light... but flesh and disease."

The fact they were created from Helminth is integral to their beating of the Sentients. Regardless, it's not even confirmed whether or not Tenno immortality transfers over to the Warframes, and whether or not revives are built into the lore. The Oro we have (our source of immortality) is our own, not our Warframe's.

[SilentMobius]

On 2019-09-16 at 10:45 PM, DeMonkey said:

Says it all really, doesn't it? You're so determined to believe what you're saying is right that you refuse to entertain the possibility you might be wrong. You've tried avoiding, now you're trying some sort of... bribe?

Man, you have so much more patience that I do.

I'm just frustrated that ignore doesn't remove the thread titles, they are annoying enough.

[Loza03]

So, is now a good time to point out that Samodeus was probably created by the Orokin? Most powerful and personality-rich Cephalons we're aware of were created by them. Compare Jordas (who, from what interactions we've had with him, didn't really seem to have much past his role, weather as ship cephalon or infested puppet) whereas Simaris has the whole sadist angle. Plus Samodeus's rivens need Kuva to manipulate, which is a distinctly Orokin substance. The only other groups dealing in it on mass are the Ostrons (from an Orokin tower) and the Queens (who are Orokin).

 

So, logically, the Orokin at the height of their power... includes Cephalon Samodeus.

[VotumPrime]

1 hour ago, iLightning13 said:

Watch Ballas' Vitruvian again.

Ballas: "Our hubris shone like a black star... for our technology, our war-machines were your kin. How easily you turned them against us. We were forced to older means. Not circuits, nor light... but flesh and disease."

The fact they were created from Helminth is integral to their beating of the Sentients. Regardless, it's not even confirmed whether or not Tenno immortality transfers over to the Warframes, and whether or not revives are built into the lore. The Oro we have (our source of immortality) is our own, not our Warframe's.

No what I meant was that if the Warframes died our Tenno could just control another clone of another Warframe and keep fighting.

[TARINunit9]

On 2019-09-15 at 5:36 PM, VotumPrime said:

Zaws. Kitguns. Magus Lockdown. Rivens.

Let me correct your line of thinking so it doesn't have a logical fallacy:

A theoretical perfect machine combining all of the strengths of Cetus (superior melee weapons), Fortuna (superior energy weapons), the Quills (Unum-designed Arcane enhancements), a Cephalon (specialized Riven mods), and the Tenno (superior mobility and defensive capabilities, access to wider variety of mods and ability to unlock maximum potential using Endo) are more powerful in small-scale battles than any combined-arms force the Orokin were able to muster

When you actually phrase it properly without any missing factors, yes, you are mostly correct

Edited September 19, 2019 by TARINunit9

[VotumPrime]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Let me correct your line of thinking so it doesn't have a logical fallacy:

A theoretical perfect machine combining all of the strengths of Cetus (superior melee weapons), kitguns (superior energy weapons), the Quills (Unum-designed Arcane enhancements), a Cephalon (specialized Riven mods), and the Tenno (superior mobility and defensive capabilities, access to wider variety of mods and ability to unlock maximum potential using Endo) are more powerful in small-scale battles than any combined-arms force the Orokin were able to muster

When you actually phrase it properly without any missing factors, yes, you are mostly correct

Oh thank you.

[GrayArchon]

5 hours ago, VotumPrime said:

I wouldn’t say that they reproduce asexually if there’s a mother and a father. Someone else once compared them to a hive of bees or some other insect colony. From what I can understand, those Sentients aren’t actually Sentient like Natah, Hunhow, or the Mother, they’re all basically fragments. Since Natah’s mother is a huge ship, she would naturally be able to produce Sentients that are also quite large as well.

See, it feels as if you don't fully read what other people are typing. Let me rephrase:

When we only knew of Natah's father, then the asexual reproduction was implied, especially by Hunhow saying that Natah was the fruit "of [his] womb" – this immediately tells us that Sentient reproduction does not operate the same way that human reproduction works, as human (cisgender) fathers do not have wombs.

When we learned in the Sacrifice that Natah has both a mother and a father, that new information necessitates a change to this theory. One possible explanation: it's not asexual, and Natah is the product of both her mother and her father equally, akin to reproduction as we humans understand. However, this still does not explain Hunhow's "womb" comment, and we know that Sentients are capable of asexual "fragmentation". Therefore, my alternate theory is such:

Quote

The Sentient that Natah calls "Mother" is the First Sentient. This Sentient is the ancestor – or, mother – to all Sentients in or from the Tau System. Every Sentient calls her Mother. Mother gave birth to Hunhow through asexual means (the practice of fragmentation leads me to believe that all their reproduction, of sapient individuals or no, is asexual), and then Hunhow gave birth to Natah, through asexual means. Thus, Hunhow is Natah's direct father, and the First Sentient is Natah's mother because she is everyone's mother (including Hunhow). All this with asexual reproduction.

That is my theory on Natah's parentage. I have laid out my evidence for this theory in this post and the one above (this one).

5 hours ago, VotumPrime said:

Naturally, Natah’s mother is definitely not the only wormship and she only controls the ones that she produces on her own, her own fragments.

My theory says the complete opposite.

5 hours ago, VotumPrime said:

Also, be careful not to read only parts of the Mag Prime codex, you need the whole thing or else you will take what they mean out of context.

The sentence I quoted is the only sentence in the entire Codex entry that describes the Sentients. You said, "She certainly matches the description in Mag Prime's Codex entry." I quoted the only relevant part of the Codex entry and explained why you were wrong. Nothing was taken out of context.

8 hours ago, iLightning13 said:

I think that's referring to the fact that Orokin soldiers stopped using energy weapons to fight the Sentients. That's why Prime and Tenno weapons are projectile based - because they were made to fight the Sentients, who nullified tech-based weapons. That's also why swords and katanas were so useful, and why the Warframes were instrumental in beating them because

I think "zero-tech" might also refer to gear suited for operation in zero-g, but it could be either/or. Also,

Spoiler

the warframes being biological wasn't the cause of their success. The Technocyte was biological and didn't stop the Sentients. The warframes were effective because they had Tenno piloting them, using Void energy.

 

5 hours ago, VotumPrime said:

It takes too much time to grow and train more soldiers for the empire, but it’s easy to mass produce clones of Warframes for the Tenno to use and if they lose their Warframe, they can just replace it with another one.

The Orokin were using Grineer as soldiers. The cost of replacing losses would have been negligible to them. And the original warframes were made using elite soldiers such as renowned Dax, so very much the opposite of what you are saying. Replacing soldiers was easy and replacing warframes was hard. The reason the warframes were effective is because they were piloted by Tenno wielding Void powers.

[iLightning13]

1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:

The Technocyte was biological and didn't stop the Sentients

The Technocyte were ineffective because they ignored the Sentients. They couldn't become Infested, so they didn't attack them and went for the outer human colonies, who could become infested.

We're both right, basically. The biology of the Warframes made it feasible, as did the control over them by the Tenno. Without one, the other wouldn't have succeeded.

This bit's an edit, as I saw an interesting thing. I can't quote the section but it's the last bit of your comment.

I've always wondered just how many 'Prime' warframes there actually were. Were there one of each? One Excal Prime, one Volt Prime, etc, or were there many? We know that there are potentially hundreds of thousands or even millions of Tenno - surely the Orokin couldn't have sacrificed that many Dax.

There's also the question of Vor's Prize. A normal warframe drops out of the Orokin cryopod, suggesting it existed before the Collapse. Also, the Cinematic trailer showed normal warframes during the Collapse.

If there were only a handful of Primes (personally I think this is more likely), then there must have been some event to destroy them, as only their blueprints remain, locked in the Relics. We know how a few of the original Warframes died from their quests (I don't know if these are officially the original Primes, but it'd make sense as they're described as individuals, unique versions of their frames) - Limbo got stuck in the Rift, Mirage was torn apart by Sentients, Gara blew up, etc, but many of the other Primes' deaths are unaccounted for. Would be something interesting to be addressed (Stalker quest I'm looking at you).

That's a topic for another time, though. Maybe I'll make a thread on it at some point to fully write out something, and find out I'm missing some glaring piece of evidence to invalidate my whole argument.

Edited September 18, 2019 by iLightning13
added more off-topic speculation because eff it

[GrayArchon]

1 hour ago, iLightning13 said:

I've always wondered just how many 'Prime' warframes there actually were. Were there one of each? One Excal Prime, one Volt Prime, etc, or were there many? We know that there are potentially hundreds of thousands or even millions of Tenno - surely the Orokin couldn't have sacrificed that many Dax.

There's also the question of Vor's Prize. A normal warframe drops out of the Orokin cryopod, suggesting it existed before the Collapse. Also, the Cinematic trailer showed normal warframes during the Collapse.

If there were only a handful of Primes (personally I think this is more likely), then there must have been some event to destroy them, as only their blueprints remain, locked in the Relics. We know how a few of the original Warframes died from their quests (I don't know if these are officially the original Primes, but it'd make sense as they're described as individuals, unique versions of their frames) - Limbo got stuck in the Rift, Mirage was torn apart by Sentients, Gara blew up, etc, but many of the other Primes' deaths are unaccounted for. Would be something interesting to be addressed (Stalker quest I'm looking at you).

That's a topic for another time, though. Maybe I'll make a thread on it at some point to fully write out something, and find out I'm missing some glaring piece of evidence to invalidate my whole argument.

There's a common assumption in the fandom that the Prime warframes were the ones around in the Old War, and the non-Prime (vanilla) warframes were all made in the current era, and that there were therefore no vanilla warframes during the Orokin Era. There is no evidence of which I am aware for this view. We know the Prime warframes were around during the Orokin Era, but there is also much evidence that vanilla warframes were present as well – as you mentioned, the new cinematic trailer shows vanilla warframes fighting Dax, and the What Remains webcomic shows a vanilla Octavia in the Orokin Era.

I think that vanilla warframes were the majority, the ones who fought the battles. The Prime warframes were ornamental, ceremonial, like a dress uniform in the modern military. You wear it when you're being honoured by your superiors – when you stand before the Orokin. Maybe high-ranking Tenno commanders wore theirs more often – we do see a Mag Prime fighting Sentients in What Remains as well.

This explains why the long-lost warframes we find during quests are vanilla warframes. Ordis' explanation about Void relics suggests that Prime warframe blueprints manifest as some sort of Void paradox, so who knows if we're even "finding" these blueprints in a traditional manner. Maybe they're just manifestations of memory, like the Paracesis blueprint.

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

the warframes being biological wasn't the cause of their success. The Technocyte was biological and didn't stop the Sentients. The warframes were effective because they had Tenno piloting them, using Void energy.

Umbra has shown himself to be effective at fighting sentients sans operator. That means that there must be some element other than void energy that protects him. It's reasonable to point the finger at the Helminth, wrapping up all the tech in that.

Remember that the original plan with the frames was to use them as soldiers made of infested flesh, and that our only example of that (the Rhino Prime codex) displays quite similar powers to the modern Rhino.