I think self-damage is a design mistake.

[FrostDragoon]

I still don't see a good reason it needs to be there. "It always was" isn't a reason. It's the fallacy of tradition.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_IGN]

Self damage is stupid...

If I shoot an explosive at my feet I die.... If I shoot it at your feet nothing happens.....  ???  10000% logic there.   

Phantasma, Lenz, Komorex are all great fun weapons that get ruined by self damage.  

My biggest most hated self damage issue though is Exodia Contagion.  Why the hell.....  (Honestly when I first read this arcanes description I thought it would make a zaw act like volt/excal whoever summons an exactly blade and just sends out endless slash spam.   Thinking it would do this I decided to build my very first zaw,  months and months after PoE came out.  Then I got to equip it only to find out its from bullet/x2 jumps that you send out a wave,  AND that the wave cane totally kill you if you do it to close.  Thus making the entire purpose of me making a zaw completely and utterly worthless)

 

[FrostDragoon]

I don't really like melee weapons so I never bothered to invest into Zaws or arcanes for them, but that sounds freaking awful.

[Miyabi-sama]

4 часа назад, FrostDragoon сказал:

I still don't see a good reason it needs to be there. "It always was" isn't a reason. It's the fallacy of tradition.

Dude youre so into it? Is that a freakin TV debates? Is that a political speech? "Fallacy of tradition" huh? 

Well dude I am speechless. You havent tell a single reason WHY this should be changed (aside of stating it is fun when it is not) and trying to win some phantom arguement. I was wholeheartedly aimed to point you at developers point of view. You instead trying to blame me in false logic and copycat funny mechanics from other games.

That's a "fallacy of comparison" if you want. If you saw somewhere something is good does not mean it has to be everywhere the same way.

Now we have an option to continue discussion. Or we can resort to searching flaws in logic, trying to make eachother look like idiot. Do you agree?

[FrostDragoon]

I gave at least 4 good reasons. You just didn't want to hear them because you don't understand what fallacies actually are.

[TheGrimCorsair]

10 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Either there is significant risk in using these weapons or they go away. The self-damage is a soft version of removing them from gameplay until DE figures out how, if at all, to balance their damage output and range of effect.

^^^this here.

[Miyabi-sama]

24 минуты назад, FrostDragoon сказал:

I gave at least 4 good reasons. You just didn't want to hear them because you don't understand what fallacies actually are.

Okay, I am deaf idiot. Thank you. See ya.

[000l000]

Game isn't idiot proof. Self damage is an issue only if you have bad habits you can't get rid off.

Not running into enemies, shooting from high places, landing careful shots instead of spreading the whole room randomly, using this damn bullet jump or even aim gliding to fire from above etc.

Not dying while using explosive weapons is damn easy, you just have to adapt instead of just playing the same way and then complain here.

[Aldain]

Mesa/Volt/Sayrn/Equinox: -exists-

Maiming Strike: -exists-

Ignis Wraith: -exists-

Tonkor: -gets nerfed for its AoE being too strong and now has drawback of killing you if you misfire one shot-

Totally not a consistency problem here, nope no sirree.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Aldain:

Mesa/Volt/Sayrn/Equinox: -exists-

You can't compare a warframe with a weapon. One is a space ninja suit which are feared through the whole galaxy, while the other is just a weapon.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Aldain:

Maiming Strike: -exists-

Let's pray, that DE will change it, if Melee 3.0 will ever be released.

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Aldain:

Ignis Wraith: -exists-

Actually I don't know how you want to nerf a flamethrower. Maybe a reduced status and critical chance, but for that higher damage?

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Aldain:

Tonkor: -gets nerfed for its AoE being too strong and now has drawback of killing you if you misfire one shot-

Give explosion the effect of reducing the base armor by a percent of the inflicted damage. Problem solved.^^

[Aldain]

12 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Actually I don't know how you want to nerf a flamethrower. Maybe a reduced status and critical chance, but for that higher damage?

I don't want to nerf it, I'm saying that in terms of AoE effectiveness it is more consistently effective than a single grenade from something like the Tonkor and lacks self damage.

It isn't just the Ignis either, look at the Catchmoon and Arca Plasmor, which can go through enemies and deal absurd damage across the area with no risk of self-damage.

The point of what I was saying was that the drawback of Self-damage isn't worth it when there are numerous other options that can do AoE comparably or better without the drawback.

Warframes should be included in this consideration because they lack the drawback entirely, energy isn't an issue these days either so they aren't usually bound by those limitations either.

They should either ditch the concept of self-damage entirely, or make weapons that can cause it actually worth using when considering the drawback. I'd also change Cautious Shot to put a static cap on the amount of self damage rather that relying on a percentage that is often useless due to power-creep.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Aldain

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

15 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Specifically, I'm referring to things like Concealed Explosives, launchers, and other weapon-based self-inflicted harm. Let me outline why:

1) This mechanic does not play well with others. It's frustrating enough when people just run down a hallway blocking your firing path with regular weapons, but it's doubly so when they pop in front of you out of nowhere when you're using something that can hurt yourself due to it clipping their hitbox. 

2) The mechanic doesn't play well on its own. Outside of some fringe--arguably abuse cases (like Chroma's Vex Armor or the Rage mod)--it's generally annoying that you can down yourself for any number of reasons that may be your fault, but aren't always (especially with the bugs this game has!), and this game isn't really known for its realism in the first place, so I don't know what logic was used in favor of its inclusion.

3) This mechanic makes otherwise fun weapons into unfun weapons. This hurts their overall usage for the wrong reasons. The Tonkor nerf was probably one of the best examples of this. Before the nerf it was a widely loved weapon that was mechanically fun (grenade bouncing) and packed a nice punch. Now it's an obscure weapon largely regarded as MR fodder. Even with the stats on Tonkor being changed a bit, what killed it was the self-damage. I don't argue for balancing weapons on the basis of popularity, but there are mechanics that are obviously well-liked and wildly disliked in this game. Vacuum was an example of the former, and self-damage of the latter.

4) Even with the addition of a mod that mostly negates this effect, mod space is too limited to honestly expect players to use that option simply because a bad mechanic exists to arbitrarily ruin otherwise fun weapons, and that's not even accounting for gimping the damage of said weapon with the mod itself.

I really would like to see more explosives-based weapons as viable, but not only that, the addition of a new frame that can outrun self-harming projectiles of its own "signature weapons" really highlights the flaws with this kind of design--but hey, at least he has a slightly better chance to survive it, right?

 

Komorex for example is straight up ungodly, it's by far my strongest weapon because it can apply both corrosice/viral, while packing 30k+DPS or something. 

But the self-damage is unfair as hell, specially because I can end up applying viral and corrosive on MYSELF, guess what happens? I die instantly.

[FrostDragoon]

30k sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. However, it's far and away enough to easily overkill most frames in the game in one second. Lvl 60 corrupted bombards... not so much.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

8 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

30k sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. However, it's far and away enough to easily overkill most frames in the game in one second. Lvl 60 corrupted bombards... not so much.

It's probably more, I can kill lvl 100+ Nox's with 4-6 shots in the body. Yes, the body. No exaggeration. 

The only weapon that managed to outclass it was Kohm (with a riven, my build doesn't need a riven). 

Edited: it doesn't cause 30k self-damage. My Rhino takes 1k at best on Iron Skin, and since Iron Skin doesn't have DR, it's the true value.

Edited September 22, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[ES-Flinter]

For selfdamage? Allow me to repeat. 

Argument against selfdamage:

- one mistake and you die.

- Warframe isn't a realistic game

 

Arguments for selfdamage:

- It's natural that explosive weapons has selfdamage (even in unrealistic games)

- Warframe isn't a child game like Ratchet& Clank.

- You get the same punishment, if you do other mistakes. (Falling from the map= enemies will shoot you to death, because no activated abilities.; Failed hacking= enemies have 18s of pure enjoyment to kill you.; ...)

- Mistakes with explosive weapons can be easy avoided, by looking on the map.

 

Yep, there is no argument for selfdamage. (Sorry for the bad formation. ->Smartphone)

[FrostDragoon]

That's not the argument against self-damage, but nice attempt at a straw-man.

[TheLexiConArtist]

20 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Now that I'm back and have a bit more time to go through this...

The entire opening post are the reasons, and your "fallacies" actually aren't. Something being subjective isn't a fallacy. Allies diving in front of you isn't a fallacy. Glitches in the terrain aren't a fallacy. Burden of proof doesn't apply in the way you're asking it to here. It's a conversation about "Should this be here?" and not "Can we prove X or Y?" But if you'd like to talk about fallacies, how about starting with self-damage as somehow being a "balancing factor" actually being non-sequitur. You can't balance how much damage X weapon does with a binary Y/N for "Should it inflict self-damage?" There isn't a numerical value that can decide that, because it's entirely arbitrary. That's the whole point here. Self-damage is entirely arbitrary.

Given the extremely low usage of these kinds of weapons, it seems that you're the one trying to force your inclination on everyone else. It's clear that the majority of people dislike it.

With regard to your comments about the Tonkor nerfs, simply adjusting the stats would not have stopped people from using it. It was the addition of self-damage that destroyed that weapon. Let's be clear and honest on that point, at least. If we can't even agree on that, I don't know how I can recognize you in this conversation.

As for it being consistent, I don't know if you're intentionally being disingenuous about it, or if it was merely an oversight due to lack of thought, but there's nothing consistent about how self-damage is applied. [Concealed Explosives] and [Thunderbolt] both inflict self harm, but [Combustion Beam] and [Acid Shells] don't. Pox doesn't inflict self damage, but Castanas do. Launchers can cause it with Blast damage, but Blast elemental procs from other weapons don't. This is a laughable proposition.

 

There's plenty more I could go into here, but I think that's enough for you to chew on for now.

It's cute you think you're bringing new and amazing arguments to the table when you aren't. You're not willing to listen to the opposing side as evidenced by your many antagonistic responses in the thread. But let's give you your dues anyway.

Balancing factor - There isn't one number and I never claimed that, so nice strawman. What it is, however, is one archetypal option to balance the (intended) superior AOE output. Shotguns have spread (not every pellet hits every target) and falloff (not full damage unless close). The Ignis has its continuous nature (leaving you exposed as you roll through the DPS), also has falloff, and substandard ammo economy. An explosive you get the full damage to every target in its radius at whatever distance you shoot. The archetype of explosives has a natural balance factor to that in the personal risk.
Does it have to have that? No, but that means it must be reined back in somewhere else, see Cautious Shot sacrificing damage off the top. People like to cite TF2 especially relating to the Tonkor's old and redundant 'gimmick', but that still hurts those players unless they choose the weapon that deals no damage to others either.

The majority - Hello, bandwagon fallacy. Also, vocal / non-vocal rule applies here: the ones who dislike will always be louder than those that are happy or even ambivalent. You're not forced to use these weapons, so it doesn't matter if they're niche use, or only enjoyed by a sub-50% portion of the population. There is no reason to enforce complete mechanical change. Calling for rebalance is fine. I've agreed that's valid. Removing the entire mechanic for personal dislikes is not.

Consistency - If you care to read again, I specified conventional explosives being the baseline of consistency. A rubber chicken fart bomb is not a conventional explosive. A shock payload from Castanas is not a conventional explosive. Abstract Blast damage doesn't necessarily make it conventional explosive either; you failed to cite Quanta cubes, but that's some weird energy shenanigan and not a good old chemical reaction going boom despite the Blast output.

• Angstrum
• Kulstar
• Ogris
• Tonkor (eventually)
• Thunderbolt (explosive arrowheads)
• Concealed Explosives (self explanatory)
• Talons
• Penta

I'm probably missing something, but that's old crowd of basic consistency. The Tonkor was the first obvious conventional explosive to defy the trend, and it was eventually fixed.

Thematic consistency was an argument I had to field recently as well, why are so many of these explosives not 'smart'? Well, most of the weapons come from enemy factions. There's the Grineer, who hack-job everything and literally strap bombs to bad clones and throw them in. They don't care much for safety protocol. Then there's the Corpus, who are corporate money-grubbers, and can you really say you've never heard corporate greed cause a skimping on safety precautions? Infested would even make sense - they're a hive, good of the many, not the individual. The only factions that would likely eschew dumb-firing on a baseline level are the Tenno factions and the Sentients (since they currently 'cannot reproduce' locally).

Now let's bring it back around. There's a gameplay factor to consider since we're not Gritty Realism. Where does this fit in?

Control factor.

Can you kill yourself out of your control? This is why the Cyanex was absolved of self-damage. The homing self-damaging projectiles could be shot to a 'safe' distance and simply double back to kill the player unexpectedly. This was deemed as not reasonable and self-damage removed.
This is also one facet of why the Simulor was instead mechanically changed - the AOE radius of the 'explosion' exceeded the firing range. The player would invariably kill themselves if it was simply granted self-damage, so another solution was found to bring it down from its throne alongside the Tonkor.

Everything else is predictable, direct, or triggered - all things within your control. All things where you make the mistake.

 

Now, I'm sure you'll cite some of the current balance issues like @Aldain did, but that's just bad balance that needs fixing in its own right. The Arca Plasmor is the Tonkor of shotguns - it removes a core drawback and becomes overbearing as a result. Catchmoon is that in your pocket, but even other kitguns are crowding out essentially every other secondary the way Tonkor/SySim did in their heyday. DE is applying riven disposition nerfs to things that win without rivens, it's shortsighted.

I can't say I agree that the Ignis is any 'better' than an explosive, though - as I stated earlier, it does still have its own inherent drawbacks. Continuous fire is legitimately a limitation in some ways - ever tried to kill an Ancient Healer lost in a crowd of other infested? All those AOE damage ticks reflect healing on the Ancient way faster than you can damage it directly. An explosive's singular direct damage strike does the job.

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Balancing factor - There isn't one number and I never claimed that, so nice strawman. What it is, however, is one archetypal option to balance the (intended) superior AOE output. Shotguns have spread (not every pellet hits every target) and falloff (not full damage unless close). The Ignis has its continuous nature (leaving you exposed as you roll through the DPS), also has falloff, and substandard ammo economy. An explosive you get the full damage to every target in its radius at whatever distance you shoot. The archetype of explosives has a natural balance factor to that in the personal risk.

This entire section reeks of now actually knowing how strong those weapons are. Most of their "drawbacks" don't actually keep them from doing anything at all. I use shotguns to snipe enemies at 200m in Cetus/Fortuna constantly, damage is still plenty high, and ammo is no concern. Ignis/Wraith/Amprex only have ammo efficiency issues if you up their fire rate, which you don't actually have to do in order to deal high dps with them because there are enough other dps mods available. The continuous nature of beam weapons doesn't mean anything at all. Their supposed falloff is irrelevant because their range is so short (which you might think is a balancing factor, but everything just dies instantly anyway).

The drawback for explosives is so wildly disproportionate to the "advantages" they offer that there still isn't a justification for its inclusion.

Also, your supposed calling out of some bandwagon fallacy is hilarious. It isn't just the opinion of many people on these boards, but it is acted out by the lack of EVER seeing anyone use these things in a mission for more than MR fodder. It's no longer just an opinion at that point. It is objectively demonstrable that people don't like using those weapons because the risks are far, far higher than the reward.

The rest of your post is a mix of your own fallacies and "you made a mistake" as if that should even matter considering every other weapon type in the game doesn't care if you make those mistakes. The "penalties" for such mistakes in those cases is usually either the inconvenience of running out of ammo or that you're at risk because enemies are alive too long. Killing yourself doesn't need to be added to it. Again, there isn't a single good justification for self-damage.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb FrostDragoon:

This entire section reeks of now actually knowing how strong those weapons are. Most of their "drawbacks" don't actually keep them from doing anything at all. I use shotguns to snipe enemies at 200m in Cetus/Fortuna constantly, damage is still plenty high, and ammo is no concern. Ignis/Wraith/Amprex only have ammo efficiency issues if you up their fire rate, which you don't actually have to do in order to deal high dps with them because there are enough other dps mods available. The continuous nature of beam weapons doesn't mean anything at all. Their supposed falloff is irrelevant because their range is so short (which you might think is a balancing factor, but everything just dies instantly anyway).

The drawback for explosives is so wildly disproportionate to the "advantages" they offer that there still isn't a justification for its inclusion.

Also, your supposed calling out of some bandwagon fallacy is hilarious. It isn't just the opinion of many people on these boards, but it is acted out by the lack of EVER seeing anyone use these things in a mission for more than MR fodder. It's no longer just an opinion at that point. It is objectively demonstrable that people don't like using those weapons because the risks are far, far higher than the reward.

The rest of your post is a mix of your own fallacies and "you made a mistake" as if that should even matter considering every other weapon type in the game doesn't care if you make those mistakes. The "penalties" for such mistakes in those cases is usually either the inconvenience of running out of ammo or that you're at risk because enemies are alive too long. Killing yourself doesn't need to be added to it. Again, there isn't a single good justification for self-damage.

So is your solution to the problem, that explosive weapon are not rewarding enough to decrease/ negate selfdamage? Instead of just increasing the damage, or the explosion range?

[FrostDragoon]

I think you'd have to go back to my OP. The main problem with self-damage is that it just doesn't really mesh or match with the rest of the game's design. It's an arbitrary inclusion that seems to have no more basis than simply "other shooters do this." I don't believe you can balance them in this game in a way that justifies the inclusion of self-damage. At the very least, it should be a niche thing specific to only certain weapons--not a whole class of them--such as the Javlok being used to proc Ignite for the "light" buff on Mirage in this video:

 

Again, that's a super niche thing. The "normal" use of that weapon carries almost no risk of killing yourself unless you've made a series of mistakes prior to it as opposed to just dying because a fissure spawned in front of you right as you fired it (as one easy example that is out of your control).

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

Self-damage is ok. The only thing I think it's a problem is how bad most weapons with self-damage actually are.

[FrostDragoon]

They are bad because of self-damage, though. It's not okay.

[ES-Flinter]

vor einer Stunde schrieb FrostDragoon:

They are bad because of self-damage, though. It's not okay.

And you think taking the self-damage away, would change something? That all the players, will now use the tonkor, ogris and the penta?

They are just not needed. That's why you see no one running around with them. You have a group of enemies? Take your melee weapon. You have a big guy with millions of HP? Take your sniper, melee or your shotgun, because they have a much higher dps.

But the other much bigger problem is, that no gamer would say, that this suicide was his own fault. It's always the fault of the game. Never the lack of the needed skill. (Or maybe the knowledge of the needed basics)

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

And you think taking the self-damage away, would change something? That all the players, will now use the tonkor, ogris and the penta?

They are just not needed. That's why you see no one running around with them. You have a group of enemies? Take your melee weapon. You have a big guy with millions of HP? Take your sniper, melee or your shotgun, because they have a much higher dps.

But the other much bigger problem is, that no gamer would say, that this suicide was his own fault. It's always the fault of the game. Never the lack of the needed skill. (Or maybe the knowledge of the needed basics)

It's these kinds of non-arguments that make it hard to resist labeling the defenders of this $#!7 mechanic simple "white knight <unmentionable explitives>." The point of having so many weapons in the game is to try them all and play with the ones you like. I happen to like launchers, but find them unusable due to said $#!7 mechanic. Removing that $#!7 mechanic would definitely change something--those weapons would become usable! Honestly, even the people who defend the $#!7 mechanic generally recognize at least this point.

As for the "other much bigger problem" you mentioned. It literally doesn't matter. At all. It's entirely irrelevant whose fault it is, who gets blamed, or why. The only problem is that those weapons are despised by the majority of the community because that pointless, arbitrary, $#!7 mechanic keeps them from being fun to use.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

you know i feel a valid solution is, keep the self damage of concealed explosives which is what Chroma uses to grant him self the power of god,  but for all innately explosive weapons just switch to a system where they will not "Activate" until a certain distance has been traveled (like many of them already do) and will only do max damage when active. 

I could see the ogris being a really powerful weapon for Ivara to area control in defense if it did critical instead of status but as it is it's just kinda trash under even most optimal situations... A trash add destroyer for low level content but totally useless on high levels..