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SmallerRidley

Biggest bleed tick with a gun?

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Melee can get stupidly big with the combo counter, but what about guns?

Doing this solo in the simulacrum, using either Garuda for forced bleed procs or Harrow for the 200% crit with Hunter Munitions.

So far I've managed 72k with Harrow and 70k with Garuda with the Lanka at 4x combo counter (completely unrealistic).  Without a combo counter, I've seen 21k with the Penta and Garuda.

 

Edit: forgot to try with Garuda at minimum health, I'll try that soon.  And it doubles the tick as expected, so 42k with the Penta on a headshot with an orange crit.

Edited by SmallerRidley

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I've gotten 800k bleeds with rhino and pre Nerf Lanka with a good tier riven

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1 hour ago, Signs said:

I've gotten 800k bleeds with rhino and pre Nerf Lanka with a good tier riven

Well, Scindo Prime could hit for millions of damage a long time ago so I don't think this counts.

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Biggest Bleed tick seems like a weird goal. Wouldn't Bleed DPS be more helpful?

At any rate a sniper. Probably Rubico Prime with Hunter's at highest combo possible will probably be the biggest ticks.
Snipers have the highest single shot gun damage in the game.

A side note. You'll probably see bigger ticks using Rhino and Bane mods as they both double dip into DoT effects. 

Sonar doesn't amplify Bleed damage either since it's a point based debuff and not global like M.Prime.

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i can't Spawn Enemies in Simulation at high enough Level for that. 

8 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Probably Rubico Prime with Hunter's at highest combo possible will probably be the biggest ticks.

i'm pretty sure that the Crit Damage Multiplier Rubico gets doesn't fully make up for Lankas' dramatically higher Base Damage. 

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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

i'm pretty sure that the Crit Damage Multiplier Rubico gets doesn't fully make up for Lankas' dramatically higher Base Damage. 

 

Couldn't remember myself since I've not much reason to use Snipers these days so did that math real quick on base damage builds. Heavy Cal. Bane, Bladed. Just all base damage and multipliers for highest Bleed ticks off Hunter's. Silly stuff. Lanka is about double to damage per shot.

Spoiler

Rubico Prime
187 Base Damage 36% x3.0  -Max Zoom = 50% Crit Multi
Serration + Heavy Cal
187 + (1 + 1.65 + 1.65) = 804.1
Bane
804.1 * 1.55 = 1,246.355
Multishot
1,246.355 * (1 + 0.9) = 2,368.075
Crit Stuff
0.38 * (1 + 1.5) = 0.95 = 95%
3.0 * (1 + 1.2 + 0.5 + 1.2) = 11.7x
Total Avg per Shot @ 4.5x combo
4.5(2,368.075 * ( 1 + (11.7 -1) * 0.9) = 118,977.76

Lanka Changed
525 Base Damage 25% x2.0 -Max Zoom = 50% Crit Chance
Serration + Heavy Cal
525 + (1 + 1.65 + 1.65) = 2,257.5
Bane
2,257.5 * 1.55 = 3,499.125
Multishot
3,499.125 * (1 + 0.9) = 6,648.34
Crit Stuff
0.25 * (1 + 1.5) + 0.5 = 1.125 = 112.5%
2.0 * (1 + 1.2 + 1.2) = 6.8x
Total Avg per Shot @ 4.5x combo
4.5(6,648.34 * ( 1 + (6.8 -1) * 1.125) = 225,129.41

 

Based on that however I can tell OP with a Roar of 200% and Primed Bane they should see a Bleed Tick of about 831,463.

Edited by Xzorn

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While we're in the players helping players forum, what are all the factors to a bleed tick and what ways can they be increased?

Gun mods:

Base damage increasing mods (so no elemental or physical increasing mods and multishot only increases the number of pellets), critical multipliers (including double/triple/etc crits), and also headshot multiplier

Frames:

Any power that increases base damage, so Rhino's Roar, Mirage's Eclipse, Chroma's Vex Armor, and Garuda's passive.  Unsure about Equinox's Rage, Nova's Molecular Prime, and Banshee's Sonar (since it's not really documented anywhere that those do or don't help).

Any power that increases critical chance, critical damage multiplier, or headshot multiplier, so Ivara's Empowered Quiver and Prowl, Harrow's Covenant, Volt's Electric Shield, and NIdus' Teeming Virulence.

Arcanes:

Any that boost damage or critical chance for a given weapon

Pets:

Adarza/Smeeta both have critical chance buffs, and Tek Collateral increases crit damage in the marked zone

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Couldn't remember myself since I've not much reason to use Snipers these days so did that math real quick on base damage builds. Heavy Cal. Bane, Bladed. Just all base damage and multipliers for highest Bleed ticks off Hunter's. Silly stuff. Lanka is about double to damage per shot.

to be fair, Rubico doesn't just get +50% Crit Damage, it's some.... weird thing that gives a stronger benefit than Additive to Crit Damage Mods. but it's not Final Multiplier either (because it's actually stronger than that >.>). it's weird. like, the delta between Optic and non Optic seems to go down as you add Crit Damage Mods, but not in the way that's expected and it's just a mess.
something like 1.7-1.8x from the Optic Bonus. but Lanka has ~2.8x the Base Damage.
but still, the Base Damage Lanka offers more than makes up for it.

Edited by taiiat

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1 hour ago, SmallerRidley said:

Any power that increases base damage, so Rhino's Roar, Mirage's Eclipse, Chroma's Vex Armor, and Garuda's passive.  Unsure about Equinox's Rage, Nova's Molecular Prime, and Banshee's Sonar (since it's not really documented anywhere that those do or don't help).

 

Both M. Prime and Rage work for Bleed / DoT effects. Sonar doesn't. I've tested those myself in the past.

One could argue semantics on wording but it's more likely just the way they were coded. M.Prime and Rage simply "coat" the enemy with an all sources of damage multiplier while Sonar is a targeted effect. I'm fairly sure the target of Magnetize will also have increased Bleed / DoT damage. I've seen some funny one-tick kill EV Trinity gags with it. If you get a 300% Power Trinity and Mag the enemy will take 600% damage of a 12.5% Max health tick in damage which is over 100% and die instantly.

 

33 minutes ago, taiiat said:

to be fair, Rubico doesn't just get +50% Crit Damage, it's some.... weird thing that gives a stronger benefit than Additive to Crit Damage Mods. but it's not Final Multiplier either (because it's actually stronger than that >.>). it's weird. like, the delta between Optic and non Optic seems to go down as you add Crit Damage Mods, but not in the way that's expected and it's just a mess.
something like 1.7-1.8x from the Optic Bonus. but Lanka has ~2.8x the Base Damage.
but still, the Base Damage Lanka offers more than makes up for it.

 

Not much experience with the other snipers. Only ever used Lanka but it would make sense if it was outside typical mod values considering that gives such a huge advantage to Lanka over the others with a flat 50% crit bonus. Once day I might test that. See if it's a bonus 50%, Additive 50% or what.

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2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Not much experience with the other snipers. Only ever used Lanka but it would make sense if it was outside typical mod values considering that gives such a huge advantage to Lanka over the others with a flat 50% crit bonus. Once day I might test that. See if it's a bonus 50%, Additive 50% or what.

good luck, i can't think of anyone that has come up with a way for the math to actually work that makes any sense and also gets close enough to ingame to be plausible.
to make things more fun, if you increase the Hit Counter way up first, the delta goes down dramatically. 
:^)

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Posted (edited)

Solo you should easily be getting much more than that. 4x combo is hardly unrealistic, that's common in short term endurance runs, like maybe an hour in. With any frame, you can get bleed ticks into the millions. Rhino is a terrific frame for that. I could give you a hundred different ways to get there, but ill just start you off easy with a gentle modification to your current test, nothing to serious or min/maxed

Try this build with your harrow:

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Lanka/t_30_00000000_132-1-5-137-0-10-140-7-5-159-3-5-405-6-5-622-4-10-863-5-5-868-2-5_137-14-132-15-868-9-159-9-622-14-863-11-405-9-140-9_WyIxIiwiMCIsWyIiLCIiLCIiLCIiLCIiLCIiLCIiLCIiXV0=/en/2-0-20

At a 2.5x combo, you should be hitting roughly 200k per tick with harrow, roughly 350k at 4x.

Most people try to combine different ideas all onto 1 gun, but they forget that you only got 8 slots. Maximize on what the gun does best. Going for slash procs? Then maximize those slash procs. They ignore armor, so you don't need corrosive. Want to have viral procs to double slash procs? Then grab a status secondary and put it there, no need to clutter up your primary build with it. Harrow doesn't really need all that much in auras so using holster speed with something like penance can make you very fluid.

Throw a pox, shoot the nox, avoid DE's nerf cops. Shoot the head, he'll be dead, don't tell DE what I said.

Edited by (PS4)Crixus044
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On 2019-09-30 at 4:04 PM, Xzorn said:

 

Couldn't remember myself since I've not much reason to use Snipers these days so did that math real quick on base damage builds. Heavy Cal. Bane, Bladed. Just all base damage and multipliers for highest Bleed ticks off Hunter's. Silly stuff. Lanka is about double to damage per shot.

  Hide contents

Rubico Prime
187 Base Damage 36% x3.0  -Max Zoom = 50% Crit Multi
Serration + Heavy Cal
187 + (1 + 1.65 + 1.65) = 804.1
Bane
804.1 * 1.55 = 1,246.355
Multishot
1,246.355 * (1 + 0.9) = 2,368.075
Crit Stuff
0.38 * (1 + 1.5) = 0.95 = 95%
3.0 * (1 + 1.2 + 0.5 + 1.2) = 11.7x
Total Avg per Shot @ 4.5x combo
4.5(2,368.075 * ( 1 + (11.7 -1) * 0.9) = 118,977.76

Lanka Changed
525 Base Damage 25% x2.0 -Max Zoom = 50% Crit Chance
Serration + Heavy Cal
525 + (1 + 1.65 + 1.65) = 2,257.5
Bane
2,257.5 * 1.55 = 3,499.125
Multishot
3,499.125 * (1 + 0.9) = 6,648.34
Crit Stuff
0.25 * (1 + 1.5) + 0.5 = 1.125 = 112.5%
2.0 * (1 + 1.2 + 1.2) = 6.8x
Total Avg per Shot @ 4.5x combo
4.5(6,648.34 * ( 1 + (6.8 -1) * 1.125) = 225,129.41

 

Based on that however I can tell OP with a Roar of 200% and Primed Bane they should see a Bleed Tick of about 831,463.

Some of that math doesn't seem to add up to 832k ticks. Mind if you share a mock build? I can do the math myself. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Throw a pox, shoot the nox, avoid DE's nerf cops. Shoot the head, he'll be dead, don't tell DE what I said.

Love the rhyme.  😄  

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Some of that math doesn't seem to add up to 832k ticks. Mind if you share a mock build? I can do the math myself. 

 

This was the build I believe: http://warframe-builder.com/s/c55d81ab6a3d8267

I did the math rather quickly. I can double check.

225,129.41 Avg Shot damage with Primed Bane but since adding Roar we'd have to remove it's value and add them together. (1 + 0.55 + 2.0).
225,129.41 / 1.55 = 145,244.78
145,244.78 * (1 + 0.55 + 2.0) = 515,618.97
Bleed Tick
515,618.97 * 0.35 = 180,466.64
Roar + Bane again
180,466.64 * (1 + 0.55 + 2.0) = 640,656.57 per tick

I think I did the first with Bane already in the initial damage.
Roar with Bane already calculated.
225,129.41 * (1 + 2.0) = 675,388.23
Bleed Tick
675,388.23 * 0.35 = 236,385.88
Bane + Roar
236,385.88 * (1 + 0.55 + 2.0) = 838,169 per tick

Yea. Looks like that's prolly what I did. Woops.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

This was the build I believe: http://warframe-builder.com/s/c55d81ab6a3d8267

I did the math rather quickly. I can double check.

225,129.41 Avg Shot damage with Primed Bane but since adding Roar we'd have to remove it's value and add them together. (1 + 0.55 + 2.0).
225,129.41 / 1.55 = 145,244.78
145,244.78 * (1 + 0.55 + 2.0) = 515,618.97
Bleed Tick
515,618.97 * 0.35 = 180,466.64
Roar + Bane again
180,466.64 * (1 + 0.55 + 2.0) = 640,656.57 per tick

I think I did the first with Bane already in the initial damage.
Roar with Bane already calculated.
225,129.41 * (1 + 2.0) = 675,388.23
Bleed Tick
675,388.23 * 0.35 = 236,385.88
Bane + Roar
236,385.88 * (1 + 0.55 + 2.0) = 838,169 per tick

Yea. Looks like that's prolly what I did. Woops.

Yeah i figured, it's not your fault though, because the website app is bugged. It didn't let you take off multishot or bane buffs so you van sometimes accidentally ring those in. Your build was rather similar to mine, though i prefer speed of procs for stacking over time vs raw damage. I know you're a proficient math guy, that's why i wanted to ask.

Also, 200% PS roar is +100%, so correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be 1+.55+1 right?

It's best to replaces ms and bane mod with ammo drum and agile aim to remove variables and toggle off crit damage

 Your build of HC+S @ 4.5x combo = 10158.75×2×6.8×2×.35×(1+.55+1)^2=629k per tick. Heavy caliber is nice, but i prefer target acquired because i like to use 1 base buff on an arcane. Plus, if i got vigorous swap, like on my harrow or my buddy is running chroma or Octavia, the benefits start falling out.

Either way, the op got some work to do lol

I figured that you put my build with a high PS Rhino, volt, harrow, and either a nova or chroma (i prefer nova because exploding enemies helps with LoS abilities), you can take down level cap HG. That's 1 billion hp.

525*4.5*3.85*3.55*3.2*(3*(8.8*2-1)+1)*.35*3.55*(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)*2*2=940 million

That's base×combo×serration-arcane×bane-roar×headshot-target acquired×(crit chance×(headcrit multiplier×volt shield-1)+1)×slash percentage×bane-roar×(summation of ticks if you get 1 tick per second)×viral debuff effect×molecular prime=hp taken.

Take a 400% PS rhino, grab a volt buddy (or use a specter), use your harrow, and have a nova (speed/neutral/low duration slow) and you got a level cap team. level cap, as in 9999. Yes OP, it is very possible. 

 

Edited by (PS4)Crixus044

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Yeah i figured, it's not your fault though, because the website app is bugged. It didn't let you take off multishot or bane buffs so you van sometimes accidentally ring those in. Your build was rather similar to mine, though i prefer speed of procs for stacking over time vs raw damage. I know you're a proficient math guy, that's why i wanted to ask.

Also, 200% PS roar is +100%, so correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be 1+.55+1 right?

It's best to replaces ms and bane mod with ammo drum and agile aim to remove variables and toggle off crit damage

 Your build of HC+S @ 4.5x combo = 10158.75×2×6.8×2×.35×(1+.55+1)^2=629k per tick. Heavy caliber is nice, but i prefer target acquired because i like to use 1 base buff on an arcane. Plus, if i got vigorous swap, like on my harrow or my buddy is running chroma or Octavia, the benefits start falling out.

Either way, the op got some work to do lol

 

Yea it was mostly just a goof build. Heavy Cal on Lanka is like shooting cross-eyed and you'd likely get better result with other multipliers and base damage Arcanes. I often forget they exist. I think the only offensive ones I use is momentum for Snipers and Strike for melee.

A 200% Roar is x3 damage output. Starts at base 50% = 1.5x, 100% is 2x so together with P. Bane they'd be 3.55x. I think 217% at 434% Power Strength is his max without help. Pfft Nidus Max Power Strength Link to Rhino. What is that like 921% Power Strength for a 460% Roar. I think that's just shy of a 2 million bleed tick.

...Course all this can just be multiplied by a head-crit for x4 damage excluding the head-shot mods.

Edited by Xzorn

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

Yea it was mostly just a goof build. Heavy Cal on Lanka is like shooting cross-eyed and you'd likely get better result with other multipliers and base damage Arcanes. I often forget they exist. I think the only offensive ones I use is momentum for Snipers and Strike for melee.

A 200% Roar is x3 damage output. Starts at base 50% = 1.5x, 100% is 2x so together with P. Bane they'd be 3.55x. I think 217% at 434% Power Strength is his max without help. Pfft Nidus Max Power Strength Link to Rhino. What is that like 921% Power Strength for a 460% Roar. I think that's just shy of a 2 million bleed tick.

...Course all this can just be multiplied by a head-crit for x4 damage excluding the head-shot mods.

It doesn't stack additively like that.

I don't have on-tap numbers, but here's a video that shows numbers from tests done by a guy named x3lp. I had known about this from back in 2015 (rhino is my fav) but not many people knew back then what was going on, but i showed it to him that it adds (1+bane +roar). It's not 1+bane+(1+roar). So at 100% PS, it's 1+.3+.5 for 1.8, not 2.8

Unless things have changed.

One of the numbers in there is a base bleed proc of 54 that becomes 176 with a bane and base strength roar. 54×1.8^2=175. So i think you gotta fix up that formula, unless you got evidence to prove otherwise (which i'd be happy about tbh lol). Unless i misunderstood what you mean. When you say 200% roar, you mean 200% ps roar or +200% roar?

And yeah, nidus with rhino and chroma is madness on the field.

Edited by (PS4)Crixus044
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1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I don't have on-tap numbers, but here's a video that shows numbers from tests done by a guy named x3lp. I had known about this from back in 2015 (rhino is my fav) but not many people knew back then what was going on, but i showed it to him that it adds (1+bane +roar). It's not 1+bane+(1+roar). So at 100% PS, it's 1+.3+.5 for 1.8, not 2.8

 

By 200% I'm referring to the UI value which is 200% Bonus Damage. Rhino at 400% Power Strength. 0.5 * 4.0 = 2.0
You're correct it's (1 + Bane + Roar). Primed Bane and 200% Roar (1 + 0.55 + 2.0) = 3.55
That would also be correct for non-Prime Bane and base 50% Roar for a 54 damage bleed tick. Same thing but I might have been confusing since I was talking about a silly amount of Power Strength. The whole thing was silly just like Heavy Cal on a Sniper but technically possible.

Funny enough I know the exact patch the bug occurred. It was U 20.2.3 in April 2017. DE caused it trying to fix a problem with Chroma's Vex armor flipping in value giving negative results. They then used their own bug as fodder to nerf him having never actually fixed the bug they caused. It's quite impressive how long DE lets bugs linger. There was also the infamous 4 year Stealth + Gas double dip but from my knowledge the two were separate. They might have screwed it up as a result of both changes somehow.

I know x3lp. I've spoken with him myself about some mechanics in the past. Long time ago though. Being more about the mechanics of the game I think he's mostly quit playing like I have. Least I haven't seen much from him in a while. There's really nothing to say about Warframe of the past 2 years that isn't just basic.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-10-08 at 4:15 AM, Xzorn said:

 

By 200% I'm referring to the UI value which is 200% Bonus Damage. Rhino at 400% Power Strength. 0.5 * 4.0 = 2.0
You're correct it's (1 + Bane + Roar). Primed Bane and 200% Roar (1 + 0.55 + 2.0) = 3.55
That would also be correct for non-Prime Bane and base 50% Roar for a 54 damage bleed tick. Same thing but I might have been confusing since I was talking about a silly amount of Power Strength. The whole thing was silly just like Heavy Cal on a Sniper but technically possible.

Funny enough I know the exact patch the bug occurred. It was U 20.2.3 in April 2017. DE caused it trying to fix a problem with Chroma's Vex armor flipping in value giving negative results. They then used their own bug as fodder to nerf him having never actually fixed the bug they caused. It's quite impressive how long DE lets bugs linger. There was also the infamous 4 year Stealth + Gas double dip but from my knowledge the two were separate. They might have screwed it up as a result of both changes somehow.

I know x3lp. I've spoken with him myself about some mechanics in the past. Long time ago though. Being more about the mechanics of the game I think he's mostly quit playing like I have. Least I haven't seen much from him in a while. There's really nothing to say about Warframe of the past 2 years that isn't just basic.

We're all on the same level. We've basically given up, because DE keeps nerfing our fun stuff and refusing to give us places to use them to their fullest without a full day commitment.

Chroma's Vex Armor use to work like roar, but because it double dipped with his toxin 2, they changed it to be the wonky multiplier that he was famous for, double dipping in combined elementals and triple dipping with base combined elementals.  This was all stealth Btw, which is why it flew under the radar. They also made it REDUCE toxin proc damage to "kill off" the tactic. As we see, that REALLY backfires on them. He use to double dip with slash too

Edited by (PS4)Crixus044

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