Difficulty in warframe

[THE_ZEEK]

Its been an issue for a long time now and it would be nice if we could see somethings towards changing the difficulty in warframe.

I can hear the nay sayers responses fly all over the posts below, but hear me out..

We have a complete game that can be done with a non modded warframe/ with non modded weapons and done easily..how bout we create a next level of difficulty where we can grow into?

Many people get bored, because the game is too easy.. as one youtuber mentioned we're playing &  farming to get stronger, and then when we get there.. we're all dressed up and we have no place to go, but to do simple missions. we need some sort of challenge that even with the best nuke builds, strongest weapons is still a challenge for everyone to do.. ( and yes again for the nay sayers,, there will be a meta found as usual, but it will not be as simple as it it now)

 

With the new sentient world coming it would be nice, if we could go into a sentient system (Tau system) with multiple planets that would require a strong player/build to complete.

It would be a perfect time for giving an extra difficulty to the game, and now as usually doable with a MR12 inexperienced player able to do it..

 

Why would we hold on to the idea that all content should be able to be played by any MR? isnt that why we want to progress.. to do more difficult content, and be challenged by it?

Sure there are people that like just to nuke everything and play the game for the way it plays speed, action, great graphics, fashionframe.. but there is also a big group of people who like the challenge..

 

Can you remember the first time when you reached the void, and basically the rooms were designed with turrets in there, and items that could kill you, beside NPC's

Nowadays, we have no need to be in a room, we just nuke and go through it as fast as possible.. ( and i think that's basically running past the game, and not playing it)

Wouldn't it be great if the new sentient system would have the same mechanics as the void, only much more difficult to traverse.. something that will ask all of the skills that we have to be used?

Something that will destroy our nuke builds and just by being in that system.. challenging us to find ways to traverse and survive those nodes? making us play the game, fight the NPC's,

and of course with an better reward system as you progress in that enviroment. Have random bosses spawn through the nodes that really will take your attention to kill, on top of the already difficult NPC's. but maybe that's just dreaming out loud, but

i think it would make the game a whole lot more challenging and for me therefor more playable and interesting.. something to sink in hopefully as many hours as i have so far..

 

Z

 

[(PSN)OriginalEquinox]

This game is made in such a way that it's impossible to give veterans a challenge without stripping away all our mods and making us use MK1 weapons and regular Warframes to play the missions, but even then players will find ways to cheese it lol. Only way to give a challenge is to make a new game without mods and have better enemy variety and scaling so we can't just "press 4 to win" everything but ofcourse that'll never happen.

[Loza03]

Difficulty should match the game its built for.

Warframe is, at the end of the day, a casual game - it needs to be so to live. That's not to say it can get away with the 'god mode' design of abilities forever, but even my ideal Warframe is not hard. Mostly because a game does not need to be hard to be engaging - to have to require engaging with the content.

Besides, at present there is no way to make something require a strong build, because a truly strong build is something like permanent invisibility, permanent CC, immortality or whatever. Things that basically let the player ignore gameplay. There's no gameplay mechanic that can challenge that without ignoring/nullifying them, because those abilities are fundamentally game-breaking when implemented without proper limits or requiring active play to upkeep. Which very few powers in Warframe are. 

Example: Volt vs Saryn. Saryn, despite being overtuned, is probably the best designed nuke as she requires a lot more effort to maintain it. Her spores don't spread on their own, meaning that she has to actively keep up with spreading them. That's gameplay. Again - could be better, but certainly requires you to play the game to achieve. Volt presses 4.

For survivability, let's compare new Wukong to old Wukong. New Wukong has two main means of surviving - reducing the damage he takes (including nullifying damage) and then healing it off. He can't attack whilst healing or nullifying, which means to be most effective, you have to balance use of his survival powers. Old Wukong presses 3.

 

Warframe still has powers that let players circumvent playing the game instead of rewarding them for playing the game. As long as they exist, neither difficult content nor engaging content can without personal limitation.

[Leyers_of_facade]

Difficulty can't survive in warframe because if any update comes out and the content isn't excessively easy, people will complain on the forums until DE nerfs it...

just look at the recent major updates and you can see that happen all the time.

[(PSN)thegarada]

I agree and disagree. The problem is many frames cannot do that content, and majority of weapons cannot. Also, the reward scaling is not there. Though, sometimes I want content that start at level 100. I do not want to farm for 30 minutes to get there. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by (PS4)thegarada

[Hellmaker2004]

Even level 100 enemies can be a challenge if you bring the "right" frame. Like sure you may have trouble staying alive, with lets say a Excalibur that have no mods equiped.
But for a fully decked out Inaros, those same level 100 mobs are still peanuts.

There are literary frames at our disposal that can manage level 9999 mobs. And that is currently the problem.

How do you make something challenging but doable for the two opposite?

[THE_ZEEK]

11 hours ago, (PS4)OriginalEquinox said:

Only way to give a challenge is to make a new game without mods and have better enemy variety and scaling so we can't just "press 4 to win" everything but ofcourse that'll never happen.

I think there can be a lot of ways to improve the way the difficulty is being set in this game, there are ways that we havent explored or recently have explored. like the wolf or the new doma's.. i see that DE is trying do do something with that and i support them venturing more into those elements. but a new game, with new game mechanics is a little much to ask.. that can be done in the new sentient system and as mentioned.. it could be the more difficult part of the game. The issue is as you say is overcoming the idea that

10 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Warframe is, at the end of the day, a casual game - it needs to be so to live.

It does not need that to live.. we have a full game/system that does that... you would expect that added content should scale in difficulty.. that its an addition to the game and that with it having completed the previous content you should be able to be strong enough to go into an higher difficulty.. I think thats what DE is forgetting at the moment.. additions are not really additions, they are expansions of the game play /map space.

The game will become more sustainable when player are able to engage with the content through more difficult content. .. not being able to do the star map with a low mastery rank. Why would you want a game that people come into and then leave because it becomes too simple.. with more difficulty and being challenged it becomes more sustained game play.

10 hours ago, Leyers_of_facade said:

Difficulty can't survive in warframe because if any update comes out and the content isn't excessively easy, people will complain on the forums until DE nerfs it...

just look at the recent major updates and you can see that happen all the time.

yes.. and thats the problem.. they put new frames and parts behind this gameplay so people feel left out or have an opinion when they are not able to get what they want, because for the casual players its not achievable to grind or farm for this. so they are left to make a choice to decide to make it accessible to everyone..

 

5 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Even level 100 enemies can be a challenge if you bring the "right" frame. Like sure you may have trouble staying alive, with lets say a Excalibur that have no mods equiped.
But for a fully decked out Inaros, those same level 100 mobs are still peanuts.

There are literary frames at our disposal that can manage level 9999 mobs. And that is currently the problem.

How do you make something challenging but doable for the two opposite?

great question! take for example borderlands 1   - crawmerax (you will die) .. you need specific weapons, builds and skills to do this.. you cannot only focus on the boss as the little NPC's will kill you, and you cannot only focus on the little NPC,s, as the Boss will kill you.. mechanics like that will add to the gameplay experience, more things to pay attention to or keep you alert as it might take you down. some hard hitting NPC's combined with some of speed and tanky stats. You'll need 3 of the 4 elemental stats, enough speed, health etc.. having to work around limitations that will make you slow down and in stead of just nuking having to really fight the NPC's . Having to use all your weapons, skills, movement, as some will be invulnerable to specific elements or only to be killed by one specific element.

The problem is that we are losing the people that advance in the game, that tinker and build to specific challenges and enjoy that challenge. we dont need to have all content available for casual players.. they'll have the current map with nodes to play on.. the addition would be more advanced in gameplay, difficulty and map design.

7 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I agree and disagree. The problem is many frames cannot do that content, and majority of weapons cannot. Also, the reward scaling is not there. Though, sometimes I want content that start at level 100. I do not want to farm for 30 minutes to get there. 

If DE still wants to have all content available for all players difficulty modes should be introduced.. maybe with a casual/hard and extreme mode.. ( and the rewards/ amount of rewards scaling with it.)

Edited October 3, 2019 by THE_ZEEK

[kapn655321]

On 2019-10-02 at 11:50 AM, THE_ZEEK said:

We have a complete game that can be done with a non modded warframe/ with non modded weapons and done easily..how bout we create a next level of difficulty where we can grow into?

Done easily?

Sentients? Eidolons? lvl 40+ on the open worlds?
Nah... there is plenty to this game that, for 80% of the existent content, can be woefully difficult.

You take an "unmodded" Ember with a hind out to toroid farm and tell us how silly and easy the game is.

Maybe you ruined the game for yourself with metas and strategy guides from forums.
Maybe you've youtubed every possible snag..
And if those are the case, I would agree that you've likely met with little real difficulty.

There is late game, mid, easy, build how you want, you can customize the difficulty you want.. but..

If you're looking for more mechanical skill, I'd say we all are, and DE's working on it.
Hopefully the melee 3 changes switch it up, along with future balances.

The difficulty right now is largely, follow meta or fail badly.. but if you follow meta, you're practically cheating.
Hoping time and DE's efforts sort that out.
 

[_Nobody_]

I remember a time, a long time in the past, that this game was considered the hardest free to play title on the market. And the community, well at least the beginner and mid game player experience, complained about how hard it was.

Now it’s too easy? Hmmm how times change.

[(PSN)thegarada]

11 hours ago, _Nobody_ said:

I remember a time, a long time in the past, that this game was considered the hardest free to play title on the market. And the community, well at least the beginner and mid game player experience, complained about how hard it was.

Now it’s too easy? Hmmm how times change.

Well.. few month ago I could barely survive 5 mins in Mot. Now I do it while I am eating a sandwich and watching TV. Mot did not change. My frames ability to soak and deal damage did. Using the same frames I am probably 50-100 times stronger now then back then.

And that is a trend in any RPG/MMO. Veteran players accumulate more power and content becomes much easier. And of course there is power creep. I was not there in the good old days to have a baseline (I started playing WF in 2019). But I know there were no Umbra Mods, no Arcanes, no Adaption and no rivens. 

[_Nobody_]

10 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Well.. few month ago I could barely survive 5 mins in Mot. Now I do it while I am eating a sandwich and watching TV. Mot did not change. My frames ability to soak and deal damage did. Using the same frames I am probably 50-100 times stronger now then back then.

And that is a trend in any RPG/MMO. Veteran players accumulate more power and content becomes much easier. And of course there is power creep. I was not there in the good old days to have a baseline (I started playing WF in 2019). But I know there were no Umbra Mods, no Arcanes, no Adaption and no rivens. 

There wasn't even bullet jumping, exilus or syndicates mods. Only Boltor and Soma. Used. By. Everyone. And I mean, EVERYONE.

[fr4gb4ll]

On 2019-10-02 at 7:22 PM, Leyers_of_facade said:

Difficulty can't survive in warframe because if any update comes out and the content isn't excessively easy, people will complain on the forums until DE nerfs it...

just look at the recent major updates and you can see that happen all the time.

sadly true. it would help if DE were to release contend that only high mr-rank veterans can actually play... but i can already hear all those below such a barrier crying about it, so no use in this either. also, DE seem to feel the urge to always open the new contend toward >MR10 to lure more new players to the game.

ergo: complain-frame is endgame ^^)

[(PSN)BloodyHell]

I'm curious. Is the issue that there isn't any difficult content with exclusive rewards or drop chance modifiers for veteran players, or that there just isn't difficult content end of? I could see the challenge developing for the former and the arguments/outrage against it among the fanbase, but if the majority of veteran players only want to play the game at a higher difficulty with no other changes, I wonder what the issue is. Is it to keep open squads populated no matter what mission node is active?

[THE_ZEEK]

2 hours ago, (PS4)BloodyHell said:

I'm curious. Is the issue that there isn't any difficult content with exclusive rewards or drop chance modifiers for veteran players, or that there just isn't difficult content end of?

it is actually both..

I just dont understand why:

2 hours ago, (PS4)BloodyHell said:

 I could see the challenge developing for the former and the arguments/outrage against it among the fanbase,

Why should everything be available right away at the start of the game? as a starter you will reach that content, so it not like it will never be accessible to novice players.. it will be available when they are powered up or have the skills and gear to play that content.

As for the veterans   this failure to recognize this problem by DE  does limt us by not having it or being able to play it. EVER, as its non exsistent.

The problem is that we need to be challenged, to have something that we can measure up to with our powerful warframes. something that will keep us playing the game in which we invested so much time, and effort (and some lots of plat).

2 hours ago, (PS4)BloodyHell said:

Is it to keep open squads populated no matter what mission node is active?

There are many idea's on the forum which describe what the veterans and non veteran / advanced players would like..

think of this.. The current "new content" is only expansions of maps and some play styles.. not in difficulty .. its like we're stuck in kindergarden and we want to progress.. but all we get is more toys to play with.. nothing that would actually challenge us.. just let that sink in..  what would you want as a progression?

Most MR 10-12 (of 27!) should be able to tank any enemy, play any node and complete any mission.. wouldnt you ask about whats next?