More missions like MOT

[Xzorn]

53 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

They thought that allowing the synergy between the different frames created a situation where players options were limited (which I certainly did not feel at all).

 

Yea, that was just an excuse. DE has a lot of those.
Long as a loot based frame exist; that's the option. Technically doesn't matter if it stacks or not. Removing stacking does further limit options however.

If they wanted to actually fix the available options of frames in relation to loot they would have taken the statistics.of loot gains with 4x loot frames, 3x loot frames and such then normalized drop rates in the game based on that data. Increasing them and exchanging the loot abilities with something more useful to game play.

In the end I think DE has already removed looting frames from the equation and even vacuum for the more valuable items in the game. Every new module / mission they've made those things do very little as you generally want fish parts, wisps, gems and rotation / boss drops. So to a veteran like myself they're already mostly dead abilities. I think that entire thing was more aimed at new / casual players who might actually buy a "Mod Booster".

In the end I think majority of DE's attention is in the realm of non-veteran players so much as I want it I kinda doubt the game will ever be hard. It's becomes a game about grinding for items; not making use of those items.

[(XBOX)yepbeeble]

On 2019-10-10 at 12:04 AM, FrostDragoon said:

Power immunity is the epitome of bad/lazy design for a few reasons, and it's why nullifiers have always been hated on:

Either you can bring akstiletto prime or just wait till it's down enough so you can shoot the null drone. They're not that hard to take care of, even most melee weps can do good against it.

[(PSN)thegarada]

On 2019-10-12 at 10:54 PM, Flying_Scorpion said:

 

Finally, some like-minded players. The powercreep in Warframe has trivialized much of the content, and made it less interesting.

This is why I think we need enemies that scale 3x as fast in both hit points and damage. That way we can hit the sweet spot sooner.

But there is a problem with 3x damage/hit point scaling...you're within the sweet spot for 1/3rd of the time than if the enemies scaled at normal 1x speed. So it's a give-and-take, on the one hand, you don't have to wait as long to hit the sweet spot, but on the other hand, they scale outside of that spot much faster too. (Could also be considered a good thing if you're looking for a challenge).

There's gotta be a way to solve this. And in case anyone is interested in what inspired me to make this post - I have an absurdly high DPS build for my Harrow+Knell, with rivens, and arcanes. The build is absolute overkill for everything on the star chart. I have to survive for 1 hour on an arbitration before the enemies have enough health+armor for the build to BEGIN to shine. I don't like having to wait that long. I want to take my incredibly powerful build and USE IT SOMEWHERE! It's like having a really fast car, and no where to drive it. It's like taking a #1 golf driver club to a mini-putt. It's like taking a gatling gun to shoot at squirrels. I want to USE MY BIG SMASH STICK! But I don't have anywhere to let it truly shine. That's what I want, a place to use it. Even in the Similacrum, I can spawn enemies at high level and I can only get a taste of the power potential that my build has. It's disappointing to have nowhere to use it.

Well, if enemies scale 3x as fast in both hit points and damage, what about the rewards? Without scaling one, you cannot scale the other. Considering the current rewards, outside of arbitrations and sorties, the rewards are.. very poor. Then if you scale the rewards, this will significantly favor players who are already extremely well decked. Not to mention, that the game becomes heavily exclusionary towards many frames beyond the level 80 mark, which means all frames will not a re-balance to deal with much higher enemy HP and damage.

And this happens in every MMO and RPG. As you keep accumulating power you will reach a point where content is trivialized, no matter what.

Also, before we talk about significantly buffing enemies, what is the average player power? You may think it is a prime frame with 6 forma and BiS fully decked mods and arcanes (sames goes to weapons), but if you are this decked, you are probably within the top 3-4% of players by power. If the devs re-direct the content for you, that will significantly hurt the vast majority of the players and make the game inaccessible.

We do need more content that start around arbitrations base level, but this cannot be done retroactively. And DE already acknowledged that we need more challenging content, and hopefully the new Kuva Liches does provide that. But if you are expecting this to be tuned to level above 100, it probably is not the case.

[Flying_Scorpion]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Well, if enemies scale 3x as fast in both hit points and damage, what about the rewards?

You make some really good points. Honestly I would just want forma blueprints.The only real way to get forma blueprints right now is to farm relics - which is kind of nice because it gets you out there playing various mission types and all over the star chart. But it would be nice to farm them in a more challenging mission type, like the 3x multiplier one that I'm suggesting.

Fortuna's alert system comes to mind again. Perhaps giving players a way to control this difficulty would be a better implementation. Maybe introduce a similar system where you are notified that the difficulty is about to increase, but you have control over whether it does or not, and you have the ability to bring it back down again if needed. Perhaps have it tied to a console, hack the console to decrease it, ignore the console to have it jump up. Then even if you're playing with other players, everyone of the players needs to agree on allowing it to become more difficult because it only takes one player to hack the console and prevent the jump in difficulty, or bring it back down to baseline. 

The main change I would make to this would be to remove the cap on the 4 star wanted system like GTA, and have an unlimited number of "stars" possible, each one bumping up the scaling of the enemies.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Flying_Scorpion

[FrostDragoon]

2 hours ago, (XB1)razberryX said:

Either you can bring akstiletto prime or just wait till it's down enough so you can shoot the null drone. They're not that hard to take care of, even most melee weps can do good against it.

I know 500 ways to counter it. You're missing the point.

[Aldain]

5 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Also, before we talk about significantly buffing enemies, what is the average player power? You may think it is a prime frame with 6 forma and BiS fully decked mods and arcanes (sames goes to weapons), but if you are this decked, you are probably within the top 3-4% of players by power. If the devs re-direct the content for you, that will significantly hurt the vast majority of the players and make the game inaccessible.

That hit the nail on the head in so many ways.

The average power gap between the top 5% of players and everything else is so comically large that content design is limited by the the gap.

The gap is so large that no amount of enemy scaling can actually keep up, I mean people can go in Survival for hours already without even breaking a sweat, and even those who go even longer than that just have a loadout that the game LITERALLY CANNOT BEAT with just scaling.

The player-side power creep is so large that the game outright can't challenge players at that point no matter how high the numbers go without throwing in hundreds of random countermeasures (ability nullifiers) or absurd damage/crowd control.

Even somebody like me, who isn't anywhere NEAR the top 5% of players, already has the issue of being so strong that not much can be a problem unless I limit myself by going solo or equipping worse gear.

[FrostDragoon]

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

That hit the nail on the head in so many ways.

The average power gap between the top 5% of players and everything else is so comically large that content design is limited by the the gap.

The gap is so large that no amount of enemy scaling can actually keep up, I mean people can go in Survival for hours already without even breaking a sweat, and even those who go even longer than that just have a loadout that the game LITERALLY CANNOT BEAT with just scaling.

The player-side power creep is so large that the game outright can't challenge players at that point no matter how high the numbers go without throwing in hundreds of random countermeasures (ability nullifiers) or absurd damage/crowd control.

Even somebody like me, who isn't anywhere NEAR the top 5% of players, already has the issue of being so strong that not much can be a problem unless I limit myself by going solo or equipping worse gear.

You don't even have to be in the top x% of players. Just grab Limbo in any Grineer map and there is literally nothing they can do about you. You can keep an indefinite number of enemies frozen for an indefinite amount of time and are free to kill them at a leisurely pace. The only fail condition here is if the mission itself can fail (like Survival). Otherwise, no amount of scaling matters.

[Flying_Scorpion]

Your speculation of what it's like to be in the top 5% amuses me, and illustrates a lack of understanding. If you are not in the top 5% then you are not in a position to properly diagnose the problems that the top 5% are facing.

 

I have said it again, and here I shall repeat myself - it's like having a very fast car and nowhere to drive it. That's what it feels like. 

 

Now I have suggested some solutions, and I have agreed with other players proposed solutions in other threads on these forums. 

 

I have adapted my proposed solution in response to the feedback that posters have provided here: give us control of the scaling, similar to how we can control the "threat level" while in the Orb Vallis. That way we can quickly ramp up the difficulty to the point where we like it, and if it's too difficult, then we can drop it back down a notch or two until we are happy. Problem solved. Unless of course someone can point out any further problems with my idea.

[(PSN)thegarada]

33 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Your speculation of what it's like to be in the top 5% amuses me, and illustrates a lack of understanding. If you are not in the top 5% then you are not in a position to properly diagnose the problems that the top 5% are facing.

 

I have said it again, and here I shall repeat myself - it's like having a very fast car and nowhere to drive it. That's what it feels like. 

 

Now I have suggested some solutions, and I have agreed with other players proposed solutions in other threads on these forums. 

 

I have adapted my proposed solution in response to the feedback that posters have provided here: give us control of the scaling, similar to how we can control the "threat level" while in the Orb Vallis. That way we can quickly ramp up the difficulty to the point where we like it, and if it's too difficult, then we can drop it back down a notch or two until we are happy. Problem solved. Unless of course someone can point out any further problems with my idea.

I think this is a good idea.

What I would add to it:

1) Sortie weekly. 5 stages where the last 2 go 20 level higher each, with the last always being a level 130 assassination. They just need to improve the rewards slightly over regular sortie.

2) Bounties, 1 higher tier, with slightly better rewards.

3) Arbitrations, more available. I suggested before 6 every 6 hours instead of 1 every hour, for better accessibility.

4) New planet (whenever it may come..) starts at level 50.

 

[Xzorn]

10 hours ago, (XB1)razberryX said:

Either you can bring akstiletto prime or just wait till it's down enough so you can shoot the null drone. They're not that hard to take care of, even most melee weps can do good against it.

 

Too slow. It shot at you. You're likely dead now.

Nullifiers are one of the major offenders of enemies who break as they scale. You simply must have Rad status, Chaos, Concuss mines or similar effects in place to completely distract them because their bubble does not drop fast enough from manual fire to kill them before they kill you and they will do it in one shot. You can mitigate the issue by jumping, rolling, line of sight, whatever but you cannot solve it without those specific things I mentioned. They will inevitably shoot you with that Eagle-eye Lanka.

Having a massive damage enemy isn't the problem here. It's having only select non-skillful ways to counter it. Players often complain about Bombards and their homing rockets. Yes they're annoying but they're also still fair. I can kill a Bombard of any level without using abilities using a bow of all things. Can the same be said for Nullifiers?

That's where proper enemy design comes into play. Our abilities fundamentally should be used to offset the horde aspect of dealing with many different enemy mechanics. If we need an ability just to deal with a single enemy then there's a problem I feel.

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Xzorn

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

I have adapted my proposed solution in response to the feedback that posters have provided here: give us control of the scaling, similar to how we can control the "threat level" while in the Orb Vallis. That way we can quickly ramp up the difficulty to the point where we like it, and if it's too difficult, then we can drop it back down a notch or two until we are happy. Problem solved. Unless of course someone can point out any further problems with my idea.

 

This is the original concept I posted a while back you might be interested in. It's a bit of a read. Took about a week to do the artwork and formatting. It was placed in the forum graveyard area unfortunately then archived so I likely won't be putting more work into it. A little complex, very dynamic putting both difficulty in scaling and challenge of new enemy abilities + Hunters together while giving the player full control of how much they want the game to push back.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1074549-arbitrations-endless-missions-20-a-continued-passion-project-for-veteran-content/

[Flying_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1074549-arbitrations-endless-missions-20-a-continued-passion-project-for-veteran-content/

You put a lot of work into that. I like how we both independently came up with a solution that overlaps in the fundamental part - a system where players control the difficulty and can increase/decrease the scaling. I like how your system also borrows some of the elements of disruption mode, with mini bosses and environmental effects. I think you have a lot of good ideas there, and perhaps since both you and I have come up with similar ideas, maybe DE will pay more attention to this and possibly implement it.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Flying_Scorpion

[Xzorn]

12 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

You put a lot of work into that. I like how we both independently came up with a solution that overlaps in the fundamental part - a system where players control the difficulty and can increase/decrease the scaling. I like how your system also borrows some of the elements of disruption mode, with mini bosses and environmental effects. I think you have a lot of good ideas there, and perhaps since both you and I have come up with similar ideas, maybe DE will pay more attention to this and possibly implement it.

 

Thanks for checking it out. It was my last breath hope to bring a concept of content that can be truly sustained thanks to it's dynamic nature and would also be heavily cheese resistant thanks to the Hunter counter measures and all the stacking conditions against the player if they choose to just keep pushing objectives hard. It simply compounds Difficulty and Challenge until it's unlikely players can keep pushing. Level range takes on a whole different spectrum.

When Disruption first came out I got a giddy. It sounded a lot like some of the concepts I put out there but turned out not as similar as I hoped.

[DOOMPATRIOT]

En 9/10/2019 a las 13:24, (PS4)thegarada dijo:

Arbitrations already exist, with higher risk and reward. We also have sorties and 

To be fair though, I would like more stuff to start around level 60-80. Hopefully the Kuva leeches fulfill this.

 

You do know that Arbitration enemy scaling is way lower than MOT, right?

Sorry to break it to you but Arbitration's enemies are nerfed, a lvl 100 in Arbitration is like a lvl 50 in Mot.

I agree with the higher lvl stuff tho, but saying Kuva leeches will fullfill that is kinda ridiculous, DE refuses to make difficult content, as Rebecca said, lvl 35 is hard content, so... yeah.

Please don't put your expectations that high.

[Xzorn]

39 minutes ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

You do know that Arbitration enemy scaling is way lower than MOT, right?

Sorry to break it to you but Arbitration's enemies are nerfed, a lvl 100 in Arbitration is like a lvl 50 in Mot.

 

Yea I almost got interested when they changed enemy scaling from linear to exponential in Arbitration but it's still much slower than typical endless missions.  2h Arbitration is around lvl 225 while a 2h on pretty much any 30+ starting mission is lvl 380. They just didn't follow through for no apparent reason.

I have to Solo only and try not to use Specters just to make lvl 400 work which is why I don't bother doing long runs anymore. It's an unreasonable time investment and I don't even care about the rewards; I just want to test my builds. DE should probably accept they're not very good at the game. It's fine just start listening to people who are.

Haha, there was a quote about "Yea, Nova is squishy but she's so good" and I laughed so hard and had to put it into a meme trash video.

Spoiler

 

The point of this was to show bad boss design and how it pigeon holes our options while not actually adding any difficulty.

I put the Nova quote in there at about 1 min mark caught a bleed proc unlike the other comparisons which makes her look worse but w/e.

Then there's this video showing Nova is more durable than new Chroma without even using her Slow.

 

DE really needs to play their game more or at least explore the high end situations better.  😒

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

I have some issues with the game changers that are adaptation / arcane guardian (/ arcane grace / rolling guard). They are the reason why "veteran" players say the game is easy. tbh they should have been nerfed, together with magus lockdown, memeing strike, condition overload, 4x corrosive projection against grineer (3x projection + 3x coaction drift) etc

 

Video game developpers give us overkill tools as a final rewards to farm, and then players complain about the game being too easy (once they get them). There are two way to deal with it : nerf hammer or even more ridiculously high ennemy scaling (OP levels in borderlands... )

Edited October 15, 2019 by MonsterOfMyOwn

[(XBOX)yepbeeble]

12 hours ago, Xzorn said:

It's having only select non-skillful ways to counter it. Ye

I feel like holding down left click to shoot is a pretty easy and non-skillful way to deal with it, considering you only need to hold your fire button for about 1 second with Akstiletto or really any high firerate secondary or primary.

[FrostDragoon]

4 hours ago, (XB1)razberryX said:

I feel like holding down left click to shoot is a pretty easy and non-skillful way to deal with it, considering you only need to hold your fire button for about 1 second with Akstiletto or really any high firerate secondary or primary.

And this is how metas form. When a bad mechanic like Nully shields forces players to bring rapid fire weaponry, it excludes a huge section of other choices. Granted, it's slightly better now that you can try to snipe the drone, but it's not great considering there are tons of places in the game where the bubble can clip through walls/ceiling and the drone is invisible or untargetable.