What is Going On With Vauban?

[Sintrias]

So I've been diving deep into Vauban's rework since it released last week. I've commented on my thoughts on his ability changes here in the hotfix 26.0.4 thread. However, I've just noticed something a bit absurd and to be frank is probably a root cause to one of Vauban's biggest problems, survivability. Why the heck is his armor value so low? Base Vauban has an armor value of 50 and Vauban Prime has 100. I mean really? Look at Wisp. She has, in her base frame, 150 armor. Why? From what I can tell, she isn't meant to be a tanky warframe. Vauban is supposed to be a more tanky warframe. He needs an armor buff badly and Wisp needs a bit of an armor nerf. Even Gara, who is also a tank/defense warframe, has 125 armor. It doesn't make any sense. Base Loki has more armor than base Vauban. Give Vauban more armor and an ability that helps him sustain whether it regenerates health or shields. Then maybe he will actually be able to survive better. Wisp is officially more tanky than a tank warframe. Not only is her armor outrageously more than Vauban's but she also has an infinite healing ability that also buffs max health.

DE please think about Vauban's role in the game. I will give credit where credit is due. Bastille has been a huge improvement, Tesla Nervos is great, Overdriver is really good, Vector Pad is fun (it could use an influence from power range),  and Photon Strike is strong. But for the love of all that's good, give him the ability to sustain himself. I have a balanced build with umbral mods and he still has a hard time surviving even against lvl 40 enemies. It shouldn't be this way when we have warframes like Nidus who can outright face tank anything at any level with minimal defense mods.

On top of all of this, he is one of the most difficult Primed frames to build. The effort to make him certainly outweighs his viability, even now with his rework. I love what you guys have done with him so far, but he needs more.

EDIT: Decided to post my reply from the hotfix thread below in this thread. Since some are talking about his whole rework I figured it would be appropriate.

So after playing Vauban's rework for the past week, I have some comments on his changes. This hotfix addresses his casting speed issues with Photon Strike so this is certainly a good start in making him viable, however it seems the community has some apprehensions about the effectiveness of his kit and for good reason. Being a defense warframe, his defense abilities suffer in actually protecting defense objectives and himself.

Bastille does a lot in regards to stripping armor and immobilizing many of those units all while giving everyone in the field a nice armor buff. However, Bastille does not do a good job at protecting objectives. In any mission that involves any faction other than infested, Bastille does almost nothing for protecting an object from damage. Bastille is supposed to be a suspension field. It should suspend enemy projectiles as well. This way, the enemy units that are either outside the field or inside the field, but not being affected by the ability, are protected against. This would make choosing Vauban to protect objectives, especially from corpus, actually viable. Another glaring issue with Bastille's suspension field and vortex is that there are times where the ability doesn't seem to work correctly. I've seen enemies drop out of suspension for seemingly no reason and those that enter the field while the maximum number of units are suspended do not become suspended after the currently suspended units are killed. When enough suspended enemy units are killed, any non-suspended enemy units should then be suspended until the maximum number of affected units is reached again (the suspension field has a maximum number of units that can be suspended at any given time which scales based off ability strength). With the vortex aspect, I've seen Ancient infested units, though not limited to them, be pulled into the vortex then immediately get out of it, making them mobile again for seemingly no reason. These issues make Vauban's main defensive ability very unreliable.

Vauban's Minelayer has issues as well. It seems to be universally agreed that the only viable part of this ability is Overdriver. Tether Coil does not do enough to be useful. Only a maximum of 2 units are affected by the ability at any point and the enemies cannot be chosen. What Tether Coil does is actually done much better by Vauban's Tesla Nervos. It's arguable that at the moment, Tesla Nervos is Vauban's best ability. Tether Coil needs to be replaced by something else that Vauban lacks in his kit. I will talk about what he lacks in his kit later. Just keep in mind that Tether Coil is the first of two abilities that should be replaced with new abilities.

The second ability that needs to be replaced is Flechette Orb. This has a similar issue as Tether Coil in that it doesn't do enough. The damage output of this ability lacks severely when scaling with enemies. Tesla Nervos does a much better job than Flechette Orb for what Flechette Orb does, aoe damage.

Both Tether Coil and Flechette Orb are redundant abilities that do not scale well at all.

Vector Pad is a fun ability that does have its place in my opinion. I've seen some of the community say that it is a useless gimmick, but I think the idea of it is really good and not too trolly compared to it's previous jump pad variation as you and your allies have to actually run in the same direction the Vector Pad points to. Against enemies, it can repel them which could be a viable ability except that the effective area of the ability is too small. This could be fixed by letting it be affected by ability range. Higher ability range would increase the size of the pad which would allow the ability to affect a larger area. If this change is made, Vector Pad would actually become a unique viable option for defense because it would deny enemies access to critical areas.

As replacements for Tether Coil and Flechette Orb, Vauban needs more sustainability. A simple healing mine would be a very good option to replace one of the abilities. Not only would it make Vauban more survivable, but it would also benefit the entire team. The second replacement ability is kind of up in the air in my opinion. An idea I've had comes from the fact that Vauban is supposed to be a warframe designed to fight the corpus. As he is now, none of his abilities reflect this aspect. A mine that deals with nullifier bubbles could be a viable option, though it is extremely situational so it would need a bit more available to it be more universally viable. I suggest that not only would it be capable of countering nullifier bubbles, but it could also deal aoe magnetic damage to help with handling enemies with large shields, especially against corpus.

This rework has made Vauban one of my favorite warframes to play right now because he is so unique. However, the way he is currently, he is not as viable as other defense warframes. I believe that these specific changes to his kit would round out his abilities enough to make him 100% viable.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Qwertykeys

[Walkampf]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Qwertykeys:

Vauban's biggest problems, survivability.

Almost all of his abilities are hard CC, making it impossible to attack you.

Mabe you are playing him wrong? Have you tried perssing any buttons?

[Sintrias]

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

Almost all of his abilities are hard CC, making it impossible to attack you.

Mabe you are playing him wrong? Have you tried perssing any buttons?

No way dude. Sure he has a lot of cc but there are always more enemies just around the corner that are not cc'd. Plus there are instances when his Bastille isn't working correctly. Enemies that are suspended all of a sudden get out of the suspension for no apparent reason. Enemies sucked into the vortex suddenly become unaffected by it. Also, anything outside Bastille or inside it not suspended has free reign to shoot Vauban. If I play Frost and put up a Snowglobe, nothing will hit me, cool. If I'm Zephyr and I use Turbulence, pretty much nothing will hit me. If I use Bastille, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm still getting pelted by bullets. I'm going to rebut your cheekiness because I don't think you've been playing Vauban. At least not in anything past moderate level. Here is my mod setup. I've forma'd him to death. The only other forma I would need is an Umbra Forma.

MODS [5 Forma]

Aura: Corrosive Projection

Exilus: Cunning Drift

Mod1: Transient Fortitude

Mod2: Primed Continuity [rank 8]

Mod3: Augur Message

Mod4: Augur Reach

Mod5: Stretch

Mod6: Umbral Fiber [rank 7]

Mod7: Umbral Intensify [rank 7]

Mod8: Umbral Vitality [rank 7]

STATS

Armor: 240

Energy: 225

Health: 860

Shield: 300

Sprint Speed: 1.00

Duration: 142%

Efficiency: 100%

Range: 190%

Strength: 203%

The build is as balanced as it can get. I've been playing Warframe since early beta back in 2013. I'm what anyone would consider a veteran player so I highly doubt I'm playing Vauban wrong. I wouldn't dare take Vauban into Arbitration, but you know what? I would take my Loki. My Loki would be able to survive much longer than any Vauban. He simply doesn't have enough sustainability. His kit feels good. The animations are really good, a lot of the ideas in his kit are fun, but in all practicality, he dies too easily. Just because he has hard cc doesn't mean he doesn't get hit a lot. Warframe is a horde game and there are a lot of enemies out there with a lot more range with their guns than Vauban's abilities.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Qwertykeys

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

They should replace the boost pad with some form of defense boost.

[Sintrias]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They should replace the boost pad with some form of defense boost.

Fair, but I honestly like the idea of the Vector Pad. It can actually be useful in certain situations even past the obvious speed boost. It can literally lockout access to critical areas for enemies. I think that Tether Coil or Flechette Orb need to be booted out for some sort of sustain ability like health or shield regen or even a personal bubble.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Qwertykeys

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 minutes ago, Qwertykeys said:

Fair, but I honestly like the idea of the Vector Pad. It can actually be useful in certain situations even past the obvious speed boost. It can literally lockout access to critical areas for enemies. I think that Tether Coil or Flechette Orb need to be booted out for some sort of sustain ability like health or shield regen or even a personal bubble.

Unfortunately vector pad is just sideways bounce. So it’s just a meme ability. Fletchette and tether are bad and irrelevant but atleast they aren’t memes.

[LSG501]

Have to be honest I actually felt the vauban was pretty squishy, arguably more so than the old version even though the stats haven't changed, when I tried him after the rework and it wasn't for the lack of using abilities either. 

 

 

[Sintrias]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Unfortunately vector pad is just sideways bounce. So it’s just a meme ability. Fletchette and tether are bad and irrelevant but atleast they aren’t memes.

Hmmm. Can't say I 100% agree with the meme ability thing, but I get what you're saying. I guess dropping a vortex does the same thing by locking out access as I was saying, though Vector Pad costs considerably less to use. There's a lot of hallways in Warframe and where better to put a sideways bounce other than a choke-point. It ensures enemies don't reach you. Also, if you have the Zenith or Argonak with the Ropalolyst Amalgam mod, you can keep enemies behind a corner where they are exposed but you are not. If Vector Pad was influenced by ability range, it would be even better because then you could possibly do the same in corridors.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Qwertykeys

[schilds]

You can stack armour up to 1000 with Bastille. It lasts for a short time out of Bastille, but you can refresh it by standing in a Bastille every now and again. It's just more management for an already busy frame though.

[Awazx]

The problem with Vauban is very simple. It is bad. Your "rework" is bad, it is worse now even than before. It is incomprehensible that DE has been able to consider this "rework" as acceptable, and so much indifference and carelessness on the part of DE is perceived in this, that I will not bother to point out the countless points that support this claim.

[Sintrias]

10 minutes ago, schilds said:

You can stack armour up to 1000 with Bastille. It lasts for a short time out of Bastille, but you can refresh it by standing in a Bastille every now and again. It's just more management for an already busy frame though.

Yeah I'm actually aware of that one. I use it often, but he still loses health even though he gets a nice armor buff. Here's some warframes to contrast with him. Nidus has huge armor and health. He also loses health when attacked, but he has plenty of ways to regain that health in his kit. Valkyr has a ton of armor and good health. She gets hit and loses health, but her kit has a way of gaining back that health via Hysteria. Trinity gets a lot of damage reduction and can take a lot of punishment as well as any other tank. Still, she loses health, but gains it back from her kit with some of the best heals in the game. In the instance of tank frames without heals, we can look at Rhino. He doesn't have any direct healing to his health, but he has Iron Skin which takes the punishment for him and can be recast. It's a similar situation with Frost. Snowglobe and Icy Avalanche both completely mitigate damage.

Also, at some point, 1000 extra armor means nothing to the enemies. With the armor that Vauban is able to get on his own, maybe 1500 max, it's pretty early when enemies start one or two shotting him.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Qwertykeys

[Sintrias]

10 minutes ago, Awazx said:

The problem with Vauban is very simple. It is bad. Your "rework" is bad, it is worse now even than before. It is incomprehensible that DE has been able to consider this "rework" as acceptable, and so much indifference and carelessness on the part of DE is perceived in this, that I will not bother to point out the countless points that support this claim.

I won't go as far as to say that it is all bad. As a whole, it isn't great, but there are certain aspects that are definitely keepers. Firstly, the combining of Bastille and Vortex into one ability was a good idea. Secondly, Tesla Nervos is actually a really good ability. Also, adding a damage buff in the form of Overdriver was a good choice. The rest is definitely not that great though. I'd say I even give Photon Strike a pass now that the cast time is better, but I think it may still be a little weak compared to other frames that have damage abilities.

[Tatann]

I'll agree on this one, even with decent 1000 armor bonus, he doesn't have a way to heal rapidly (unlike Atlas, Oberon, etc...)

As an engineer and therefore a support role, he shouldn't be only about CC. They gave him a (small and impractical) damage boost, but they should have given him something to boost EHP, so some healing or at least overshield 

 

[AzureTerra]

the problem with the boost is that if you mis-angle it by even a small amount its an annoyance more than a help generally.

[EmperorWisel]

I am trying to use vauban while farming for murmurs and it does feel like he is too squishy. i keep bastille bonus up all the time and yet i still lose over 80% of my health to enemies outside of his cc ... they are level 60-70 enemies 

[Teridax68]

8 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Almost all of his abilities are hard CC, making it impossible to attack you.

Mabe you are playing him wrong? Have you tried perssing any buttons?

This'd be a valid argument if enemies in higher-level missions were consistently affected by hard CC, but as most of us are aware, that hasn't been the case for quite some time: many enemies now resist or are immune to CC, and units such as Nullifiers not only block abilities, but destroy deployables as well. This is why the meta has shifted towards steroid-based frames with high amounts of personal survivability, because those abilities typically cannot be bypassed by enemies: conversely, this is also one of the reasons why pure CC-based caster frames like Vauban, Banshee, or Nyx struggle to survive at higher levels, because merely pressing buttons isn't going to save them against enemies who invalidate most, if not all of their kit.

This isn't to say, however, that Vauban should be made into a tank simply to keep pace with the rest, even though that was DE's intent by making Bastille grant bonus armor. Because the problem stems from enemies scaling up to excessive damage output while also hard-countering many abilities, we should address those features first in order to resolve it, rather than homogenize every frame with durability steroids (which is already happening with most recent frame designs). Vauban could still have some defensive ability, but I'd rather it were some more interesting and interactive effect, like a deployable ground shield or the like, rather than the generic 90% damage reduction steroid every other frame seems to be getting nowadays.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Teridax68

[Tatann]

A deployable ground shield won't stop enemies passing through it, or flanking you (open world)

I've played many bounties in Cetus/Vallis, so it's not even high level, we're talking level 50 enemies. The rework boosted the range (and duration) on Vortex but reduced it for Bastille. In such big spaces, you end up either spamming bastilles (which is hard thanks to the new 100 energy cost), or dying from distance fire

Even if the 1000 armor helps a bit reducing incoming damage, without a way to quickly grow back your EHP, you're dead by the end of the mini-mission (unless you use pizzas or equip a healing Furis or other syndicate healing mecanism)

[Teridax68]

34 minutes ago, Tatann said:

Even if the 1000 armor helps a bit reducing incoming damage, without a way to quickly grow back your EHP, you're dead by the end of the mini-mission (unless you use pizzas or equip a healing Furis or other syndicate healing mecanism)

Magus Repair is a thing, though, so that much is fine if we're talking about higher-level play, and if you're getting flanked by enemies... why not deploy more stuff? If enemies are passing through the shield (and this assumes enemies can pass through the shield), why not kill them? Even something as short-lived as a Halo-style bubble shield could already offer protection more in the style of Vauban than just armor, which itself boils down to damage reduction.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Teridax68

[Tatann]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

Magus Repair is a thing, though, so that much is fine, and if you're getting flanked by enemies... why not deploy more stuff? If enemies are passing through the shield (and this assumes enemies can pass through the shield), why not kill them? Even something as short-lived as a Halo-style bubble shield could already offer protection more in the style of Vauban than just armor, which itself boils down to damage reduction.

So your solution is an Arcane hidden behind the last rank of a faction and grinding of a boss fight

I wonder what percentage of players have it, compared to a Warframe with healing capabilities (EHP boosting) without being a dedicated healer (Atlas, Khora, Nidus, Inaros, Harrow, Volt with augment, Frost with augment, Revenant, Rhino, Nezha, Mag, Saryn with augment, ... I guess there's more)

As for the shield bubble, I'm up for it, I thought you meant a basic 2D shield (like Volt's),

The bubble has been suggested by many players while discussing the rework and it fits the theme

I'm not saying the game should be played with any lack of skill but :

- environments got bigger and more open, Bastille got smaller compared to it, so you can't lock the whole map like you used to 

- spamming Bastilles is harder especially since all his abilities (except Orbital Strike) needs duration (so goodbye sweet Fleeting Expertise)

- Vauban ark throwing mechanic isn't like the point and cast of all other frames : it has a shorter range AND it takes time to travel AND then activate. In open environments, it gets even worse

- since we don't have shield gating yet (ME3 came out in 2012 and did it perfectly), you should have a way of not getting down in less than a second (basic human response time) cause an enemy with hitscan weapon 50m away decided it was your turn

I don't want Vauban to become a face-tanking god like Atlas or whatever, just to have a bigger timeframe when taking some hits from far away and a way to "repair" it after having dealt with the menace

[Teridax68]

20 minutes ago, Tatann said:

So your solution is an Arcane hidden behind the last rank of a faction and grinding of a boss fight

Yes, which I think is fair if we're talking specifically about high-level play, which is where Vauban suffers. I do generally take issue with frames needing healing from some external source when it comes to damage in general, as playing Warframe for the first time in solo quickly becomes a battle of attrition, but in this particular case Vauban doesn't struggle in lower levels so much as what is currently considered "endgame".

20 minutes ago, Tatann said:

I'm not saying the game should be played with any lack of skill but :

- environments got bigger and more open, Bastille got smaller compared to it, so you can't lock the whole map like you used to 

Which is fine. Preventing literally every enemy from taking any action should never have been a goal to begin with.

20 minutes ago, Tatann said:

- spamming Bastilles is harder especially since all his abilities (except Orbital Strike) needs duration (so goodbye sweet Fleeting Expertise)

Bastille spam is not a new thing, though, it's only gotten more expensive. At that stage, though, Energy is not a massive concern either.

20 minutes ago, Tatann said:

- Vauban ark throwing mechanic isn't like the point and cast of all other frames : it has a shorter range AND it takes time to travel AND then activate. In open environments, it gets even worse

Agreed, and I think Vauban's new animations make matters worse. This is all the more why I think he needs some protective deployable.

20 minutes ago, Tatann said:

- since we don't have shield gating yet (ME3 came out in 2012 and did it perfectly), you should have a way of not getting down in less than a second (basic human response time) cause an enemy with hitscan weapon 50m away decided it was your turn

I disagree. If enemies can kill players in less than a second, then the problem isn't with literally every frame that doesn't have some specific counter-mechanic against that, but with enemies scaling up to deal too much damage. Ultimately, that is the crux of the current discussion, as in a healthy state of the game a frame shouldn't even need dedicated protection abilities just to have a decent chance at surviving combat.

 

[Tatann]

I'm not talking about endgame, level 200 (or even 100) enemies and the exponential problem of enemy damage and EHP ... I'm talking about open worlds, so bounties that new players can play rapidly in the starchart

And if you think it's fine a frame like Vauban which really almost entirely on CC (with the exception of his new 3) can't lock enemies, is it fine frames like Mag, Nova, Mesa, Volt can do such thing while nuking everything and being tankier ?

[000l000]

Il y a 21 heures, Walkampf a dit :

Almost all of his abilities are hard CC, making it impossible to attack you.

Mabe you are playing him wrong? Have you tried perssing any buttons?

Hard CC ? Bastille has really limited range, limited amount of enemies (good luck with infested enemies), is quite expensive and won't ever protect you nor objectives from enemies who are shooting at you from afar. His tesla grenades still suck and you can no longer throw some Vortex to help with your Bastille since they have been stupidly merged.

Seriously, i wouldn't even bring a Vauban to some excavation mission, Nova or Mag can control the whole map with only one skill, Vauban is only suffering from a poor rework that made him ever worse while failing at fixing all of his issues.

You can press all buttons you want, it won't make him better. Being sarcastic or disobliging won't help either tbh but hey, if you want to be that guy, have fun !

Edited November 7, 2019 by 000l000

[Sintrias]

42 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Hard CC ? Bastille has really limited range, limited amount of enemies (good luck with infested enemies), is quite expensive and won't ever protect you nor objectives from enemies who are shooting at you from afar. His tesla grenades still suck and you can no longer throw some Vortex to help with your Bastille since they have been stupidly merged.

Seriously, i wouldn't even bring a Vauban to some excavation mission, Nova or Mag can control the whole map with only one skill, Vauban is only suffering from a poor rework that made him ever worse while failing at fixing all of his issues.

You can press all buttons you want, it won't make him better. Being sarcastic or disobliging won't help either tbh but hey, if you want to be that guy, have fun !

It is possible to throw out a vortex with the suspension field. You just need to hold 4 and you'll immediately throw out the vortex though you'll have to do this before throwing out the suspension field or convert your current suspension field into a vortex then throw out a new suspension field. I don't really like having to do this though because it's expensive and takes away from the suspension field's buffs for your team and debuffs for the enemy.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Qwertykeys

[000l000]

il y a 4 minutes, Qwertykeys a dit :

It is possible to throw out a vortex with the suspension field. You just need to hold 4 and you'll immediately throw out the vortex though you'll have to do this before throwing out the suspension field or convert your current suspension field into a vortex then throw out a new suspension field. I don't really like having to do this though because it's expensive and takes away from the suspension field's buffs for your team and debuffs for the enemy.

How is that supposed to be an improvement then ? You can throw a Bastille after a Vortex but not the opposite, nothing in this rework actually makes sense.

[Sintrias]

5 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

How is that supposed to be an improvement then ? You can throw a Bastille after a Vortex but not the opposite, nothing in this rework actually makes sense.

Whether or not its an improvement was not my point. I was just stating a fact. I don't think it's a bad design actually. Simply put, a vortex should not have to help out a suspension field. If it does, then the suspension field is too weak.

On a side note, I thought if you had multiple suspension fields up and collapse them, they were supposed to collapse into a single vortex, but that isn't happening. At least for me it isn't.