If you're being told to play a mission Solo, that's a problem.

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, IamLoco said:

This would require the players to actively setup their Parazons with those denial mods. It would only lead to the same situation as the one we have now, trying to explain other players how to not mess up everyone elses game.

The problem needs to be addressed at the root, not at the top. DE has to come up with a "what if / then" solution that does not require a player to perform a certain action.

You would only need 1 denial mod in the first slot, and there is only 1 denial mod not multiples.

The standard reason for not trying to kill lich is :

1) "i don't have the mods."

2) "Lich will level up if i am wrong",

3) "i don't know what to do"

4) "#*!% you i play how i want."

 

the first two are no longer reasons if my suggestion is implemented.

3rd is more of an overall warframe problem with its lack of explanation- patiently explaining things instead of going "why aren't you killing it you dumb idiot" is usually enough.

4th cannot be overcome by implementing a system of fail safes as it is an attitude problem.

 

[Test-995]

2 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You would only need 1 denial mod in the first slot, and there is only 1 denial mod not multiples.

The standard reason for not trying to kill lich is :

1) "i don't have the mods."

2) "Lich will level up if i am wrong",

3) "i don't know what to do"

4) "#*!% you i play how i want."

 

the first two are no longer reasons if my suggestion is implemented.

3rd is more of an overall warframe problem with its lack of explanation- patiently explaining things instead of going "why aren't you killing it you dumb idiot" is usually enough.

4th cannot be overcome by implementing a system of fail safes as it is an attitude problem.

 

You forgot to put 5) not killing lich is simply more efficient.

It's not like hard to fix or anything, but i don't think DE will actually make things easier before hitting 2 or 3 month mark after update.

[0_The_F00l]

3 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

You forgot to put 5) not killing lich is simply more efficient.

It's not like hard to fix or anything, but i don't think DE will actually make things easier before hitting 2 or 3 month mark after update.

maybe , Not sure if it is more efficient , i do notice more thralls near liches. but the total murmur progress at end of mission seems to be the same.

DE may not be interested in reducing grind , but they will avoid any inter player conflict or means to grief wherever possible.

[Test-995]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

maybe , Not sure if it is more efficient , i do notice more thralls near liches. but the total murmur progress at end of mission seems to be the same.

DE may not be interested in reducing grind , but they will avoid any inter player conflict or means to grief wherever possible.

The difference is, you'll get yet another guaranteed lich in future missions if you keep them alive, and i'm mostly sure they'll increase thrall count because i only got like ~5 thralls for normal defenses, and more than 10 thralls with lich.

And yeah, so by following this logic they could just remove thrall conversion ability from liches... lol

[Mr.Fluffins]

Hmm, I guess people complaining about liches being "PUB unfriendly" have never:

• Tried a sortie spy mission in a pub
• Tried a profit taker in a pub, only to encounter a bunch of leechers who hide in void mode all fight and refuse to kill even the corpus soldiers on the ground
• Tried an Eidolon fight in a pub, only to encounter a bunch of leechers who don't do jack and wait for you to kill it.

Honorable mention goes to those people in index who hoard a bunch of points and refuse to cash in untill either they die and feed the brokers or you run out of time.

Hint: if you want to do a somewhat demanding content in a group, FORM A GROUP. The moment you decide to do something in a pub, you void all rights to complain about anything.

Again, just to re-iterate my point: Co-op is not bad, but co-op with RANDOMS can be bad, and not just for liches.

[ILOHARTA]

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Dude, you are an immortal, eternal, magic wielding void demon. Just let that poor lich have his hollow victory. You even get progress towards the next requiem hint.

just chiming in to slow clap this skillful synthesis, this is the "R rated" version of "this is what you are"

[(XBOX)SupremeMorph]

5 hours ago, Aldain said:

I mean Shadow of War/Mordor had a simple QTE used for executions and avoiding dying when downed, honestly if they would have just had that most of the problems of people not interacting with their Lich wouldn't have happened because a chance at failure is still better than absolute failure.

Let's be honest, those qtes were a formality at best, they're ridiculously easy. It's more the limited chances you get to get back up when one puts you down, not counting assassin's no chance or saviors

[ShortCat]

6 hours ago, Aldain said:

Overall the issue I see with it stems from the lack of player agency in how they deal with their Lich which creates the issue of people ignoring them because it is the only choice they have other than "die because the game says so".

Why would you ignore your Lich in the first place? There is an incentive to fight, because even in the worst case you will get 10 Murmurs as well as test the right mod order. People ignore them becasue they will lose 1 revive? I don't get it.

[Erwes]

I think for very import lore quest it's good.

But one time I wanted to play with my brother and I wanted to show him fortuna and the orb vallis but we never did because he had to do the quest alone.

Of course in the end he was bored and stopped playing... It's not fun, we should be able to play with friends, even more on the fortuna quest that is just a somewhat a tutorial...

I want to have play and have fun with friends for special missions, like dungeon, exploration, not always grinding and killing everything brainlessly. Fuk it's like meeting your friends at the mine

[Zahnrad]

6 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

I'd be interested in seeing you cite specific circumstances surrounding when you heard that advice given.

It's not that I don't believe you insomuch as it is that the bulk of the times I have seen that advice given. the intent has been to meet the need of a specific player's preferences or expectations.

There is no repeatable content that can't/shouldn't be done in a group but there are tons of weapons, powers, mission goals, and playstyles whose interactions are better suited to a solo setting as opposed to in groups.

Do please cite some specifics.

 

 

[Test-995]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Why would you ignore your Lich in the first place? There is an incentive to fight, because even in the worst case you will get 10 Murmurs as well as test the right mod order. People ignore them becasue they will lose 1 revive? I don't get it.

There is lot more incentive to not fight than to fight.

1, they will rank up, and thus expand their control, while being stronger.

2, their rage meter will reset, so you have to grind it again to spawn them, if your murmur is close to next one, and you already tested first(second) murmur, you wouldn't want to kill them.

3, most importantly, they have the ability that convert nearby enemies onto thralls, i'm not sure if there is maximum limit for those, but it does increase murmur gain by a lot (minimum of 1, and sometime more than 10), and as long as you are ignoring him he will always spawn till you clear out all the node he has.

And of course, those thralls give everyone a murmur, and rage meter for their lich.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Zahnny said:

 

Sorry but that one doesn't apply as it's already covered by my commentary.

While the instance cited is certainly specific... It is also covered under the idea that the advice was given with the intent being to meet the need of a specific player's preferences or expectations. Because it revolves around weapons, powers, mission goals, and playstyles whose interactions are better suited to a solo setting as opposed to in groups.

As such, the advice is self serving ... Someone actually should be playing solo in that case.

It's no different than running any other mission with a selfish, overzealous, or inconsiderate player.

In the instance you've cited, the intent of the thread and the stance that caused the complaint to begin with both fall under that category.

 

Thank you for using this instance though as it highlights my point perfectly.

[Aldain]

3 hours ago, Test-995 said:

There is lot more incentive to not fight than to fight.

1, they will rank up, and thus expand their control, while being stronger.

2, their rage meter will reset, so you have to grind it again to spawn them, if your murmur is close to next one, and you already tested first(second) murmur, you wouldn't want to kill them.

3, most importantly, they have the ability that convert nearby enemies onto thralls, i'm not sure if there is maximum limit for those, but it does increase murmur gain by a lot (minimum of 1, and sometime more than 10), and as long as you are ignoring him he will always spawn till you clear out all the node he has.

And of course, those thralls give everyone a murmur, and rage meter for their lich.

That's the gist of it.

There's also the design nature of it being a very negative experience for players just based on the fact that it is a forced death with no input from the player.

4 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Why would you ignore your Lich in the first place? There is an incentive to fight, because even in the worst case you will get 10 Murmurs as well as test the right mod order. People ignore them becasue they will lose 1 revive? I don't get it.

Overall the issue is that it just isn't fun for most people to die with no recourse or control, players are more accepting of a loss when they have control over that loss in the first place, that is why people will play games like Dark Souls where you have absolute control over if you live or die by sheer skill at manipulating the game systems, even if the player dies 1000 times it is (usually, bugs can happen) the player's actions, not arbitrary "you lose because you can't not lose" design.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Lucas Jameson said:

Let's be honest, those qtes were a formality at best, they're ridiculously easy. It's more the limited chances you get to get back up when one puts you down, not counting assassin's no chance or saviors

I'd rather the formality that at least gives the player some choice, though the "No Chance" modifier was always irritating to me, especially on Uruks that could wipe you out in 1-2 hits and were immune to most tactics, but that was rare, here every enemy has No Chance and kill you when you WIN against them, which makes no sense.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Aldain

[(XBOX)SupremeMorph]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

I'd rather the formality that at least gives the player some choice, though the "No Chance" modifier was always irritating to me, especially on Uruks that could wipe you out in 1-2 hits and were immune to most tactics, but that was rare, here every enemy has No Chance and kill you when you WIN against them, which makes no sense.

Yeah, I definitely agree that the liches shouldn't kill you because you didn't get the right combo. Maybe also give them the ability to perform the OHK finishers as an active ability, with each Lich getting their own technique with particular counters. Like dodging, blocking, gaining distance, interrupting, etc

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

16 hours ago, Zahnny said:

I'm seeing it constantly, and more so with the new update posts are being flocked with "Just play Solo." like that is something to be proud of. Hazard a guess it's the same people who use the "well the item was free so you're not allowed to complain" argument.

If the superior method to play a Co-Op game is playing it Solo rather than in Co-Op that's a major problem and should be discussed rather than hidden under the rug. This isn't a jab at DE. But DE doesn't need its community making these kinds of excuses for them.

If you don't like what others use as a solution, don't ask for it. No one is forcing you to do it. There is nothing requiring coop in this game. Solo is viable. It is an option you get to have if you choose. It's a choice not a problem. The problem is clearly your personl feelings about it. 

[Zahnrad]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)Rust Plague said:

If you don't like what others use as a solution, don't ask for it. No one is forcing you to do it. There is nothing requiring coop in this game. Solo is viable. It is an option you get to have if you choose. It's a choice not a problem. The problem is clearly your personl feelings about it. 

I have nothing against Solo play, in fact the first year or so of Warframe was just that. Solo is always a choice and I will defend your right to play Solo, but when Co-Op is being effected so badly that the only option is to play Solo, then is that not a considerable issue?

[(PSN)OccultSif]

The play solo has become a mantra of Warframe to be honest, you don't really need people to play the game for most content. Very few things require it, the old Raids did well at least before operators stopped asserting their dominance through their chest lasers, the Coaction drift Ascension Hall puzzle somewhat does unless you have 2 or 3 specters you can have stand on the pressure plates. For the Liches people expecting people to play like them is funny. It's like a Rhino getting mad at a Gara for not being able to tank in the same way. Or another example the riven challenges that require you to do missions solo, ie interception solo with hobbled key, Extermination without sounding alarm solo you straight up can't do those in a group so it incentivizes going solo. 

Warframe is a game for multiplayer but the content in it is entirely doable, or even faster solo. In most situations there isn't a reason to do co-op versus solo. The liches system needs to be added onto, like create a sort of Grustrag 3 (or 4 in this case.) where the liches will group against the tenno with some higher level units like some bombards, heavy gunners, and then them maybe give a better reward chance for running them together. Like have the Liches have a chance to drop some of the other people's stolen loot too that everyone gets. Like an accumulated dragons hoard between all the current liches. Maybe that group will get lucky and get that Shotgun riven that lich was a big enough $&*^ to steal. 

Overall DE has unintentionally for a long time made an incentive to do things solo, it's faster for some gamemodes, less chance to fail, or there is just less enemies that spawn so it's less of a hassle. I'd like to have a reason to play with others in everything more than just the annoying/better done in public missions like Lua rescue, Tridolons, and void fissures.

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

12 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

when Co-Op is being effected so badly that the only option is to play Solo, then is that not a considerable issue?

If you're asking for solutions, you probably won't like them.

But here goes; 

1st. That's your opinion.  Many disagree. Solution #1 Suck it up and spend your time doing something else that won't impact your feelings. 

2nd. If you feel it's being effected so badly. Solution #2 Get better teammates. You can control for those circumstances. If you're expecting randoms to jump because you don't like what they are doing, you won't get far convincing anyone.

3rd. Don't ask for advice or insinuate you don't like something and then insert a decleration that you know and no one else does. Refusing to be open minded does you no favors.

[16Bitman]

10 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Hint: if you want to do a somewhat demanding content in a group, FORM A GROUP. The moment you decide to do something in a pub, you void all rights to complain about anything.

Again, just to re-iterate my point: Co-op is not bad, but co-op with RANDOMS can be bad, and not just for liches.

Lich missions make it difficult to keep playing with the same group of people.

If someone selects a node that isn't under control by your lich, your thralls will not spawn, you will still get murmur from the other thralls, but the annoyance level will not move at all.

This discourages group play with your clan/friends until the influence of your lich might start overlapping with theirs.

 

All that is left is asking for a group for each planet (and even then not all nodes have to be under their control) in recruiting chat.

[ShortCat]

8 hours ago, Test-995 said:

There is lot more incentive to not fight than to fight.

1, they will rank up, and thus expand their control, while being stronger.

2, their rage meter will reset, so you have to grind it again to spawn them, if your murmur is close to next one, and you already tested first(second) murmur, you wouldn't want to kill them.

3, most importantly, they have the ability that convert nearby enemies onto thralls, i'm not sure if there is maximum limit for those, but it does increase murmur gain by a lot (minimum of 1, and sometime more than 10), and as long as you are ignoring him he will always spawn till you clear out all the node he has.

1. So people are now scared of lvl 100 enemies? And slightly stronger Lichs.
2. Low rage meter doesn't mean Lich won't show up. But gues what, your Lich will never show up, if the other guy is not killing his. Just think about it for a moment.
3. Yes, they will spawn more Thralls. But you still progress faster if you discover the right mods.

[Learicorn]

Honestly i had no idea i had to let my lich kill me to other player's lich could spawn. The lack of information about what the hell is going on in this update is once again, absurd

[ShortCat]

5 hours ago, Aldain said:

Overall the issue is that it just isn't fun for most people to die with no recourse or control, players are more accepting of a loss when they have control over that loss in the first place, that is why people will play games like Dark Souls where you have absolute control over if you live or die by sheer skill at manipulating the game systems, even if the player dies 1000 times it is (usually, bugs can happen) the player's actions, not arbitrary "you lose because you can't not lose" design.

I still don't get the point.
In another universe, there is a short window after wrong input, where player has to press a certain button and Warframe will stop the execution and survive. No "YOU DIED" screen. But you still lost and Lich will flee. What difference does this screen mean, if you can press revive and continue as if nothing happened.

If you have gripes with mod discovery mechanic, put it into right words. "I won't try my Lich, because I might die" just sounds stupid, since one death is meaningless in Warframe.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, ShortCat said:

I still don't get the point.
In another universe, there is a short window after wrong input, where player has to press a certain button and Warframe will stop the execution and survive. No "YOU DIED" screen. But you still lost and Lich will flee. What difference does this screen mean, if you can press revive and continue as if nothing happened.

I understand that you don't get it.

You don't need to get it, but if it doesn't matter to you if it is either way then people requesting that chance shouldn't be wrong since either way has no difference right?

If that change has no negative impact why anyone would be against it is the one thing I don't get.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

I wish there was a way to determine the actual age groups of those who complain. It's already difficult enough to take people seriously in 2019 but, with such a wide age group, it's impossible to know who has legit complaints and who's just trying to be trophy kids.

[Rakosta_Kai]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

I wish there was a way to determine the actual age groups of those who complain. It's already difficult enough to take people seriously in 2019 but, with such a wide age group, it's impossible to know who has legit complaints and who's just trying to be trophy kids.

Knowing ages wouldn't help...It's enough to know that some folks have legit complaints and hope DE can get the issue sorted out sooner rather than later.

It's a pervasive enough issue currently that it doesn't need to become "the next manual blocking" where DE leaves it in it's current state, even though it's obviously disruptive, in the hopes that folks grow used to it over time. 

That happens alot here, unfortunately,  so I completely get why people are complaining....I just wish folks would stop complaining at each other and offer more suggestions for fixes to keep that fire under DE lit to get it changed.