Give us something to counter Lich Insta-kills

[(PSN)Silverback73]

I don’t care if I have to farm them and they are expendable or a gear wheel item, Requiem mod on the Parazon as an “exilus slot”, or an arcane.

I don’t care if the animation is the same and I’m left with 1 hit point.

But give us a way to avoid Parazon Requiem Roulette.  As a vet, I dislike this design choice to the point that I don’t want to invest or play this part of the update AT ALL.  It destroys immersion for me just watching videos of it.

And I see the work you’ve put in.

Sincerely,

Silverback

 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Uhkretor]

Did the patch get released for PS4?

[CriticalFumble]

Personally, I think you should kill the lich on Mercy even if you don't have the Requiem sequence correct.  Obviously they come back if you don't get the sequence right, but the way it works now is just. . . kinda. . . insulting. 

I mean, they're supposed to be all scary and dangerous, but if you want to sell that they need to be that way in the actual gameplay, not by suddenly get folded up like you're a Care-Bear that wandered into a Mortal Kombat tourney.  This happens without regard to your actions, hard struggle or dropping them before they even get a shot off. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

23 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Did the patch get released for PS4?

No.  Thank goodness I saw the “mighty” Parazon guess-fail-die mechanic before playing it.  It would have infuriated me.

And I don’t mean that in a cool, arch-nemesis kind of way. 

I mean that in an utterly disappointed, de-motivating kind of way.

Edited November 13, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Hixlysss]

7 minutes ago, CriticalFumble said:

Personally, I think you should kill the lich on Mercy even if you don't have the Requiem sequence correct.  Obviously they come back if you don't get the sequence right, but the way it works now is just. . . kinda. . . insulting. 

I mean, they're supposed to be all scary and dangerous, but if you want to sell that they need to be that way in the actual gameplay, not by suddenly get folded up like you're a Care-Bear that wandered into a Mortal Kombat tourney.  This happens without regard to your actions, hard struggle or dropping them before they even get a shot off. 

Indeed. one of the ways to do this is to make their resistances/weaknesses MEAN something. Weak to blast? *whams with 10k blast damage, does 1/10th of their HP bar.* well....#*!%. 

[YUNoJump]

Considering we get 4 whole revives per mission, as a vet myself I don't think I've ever really felt starved for revives that much, and I'm not even that good at the game.

If the Lich is breaking our spines and slamming our skulls into the ground it would feel kinda anticlimactic if we just got up and kept fighting like we fell off a K-Drive, especially if we then just watch the Lich disappear in a puff of smoke.

[Nez-Kal]

20 minutes ago, CriticalFumble said:

Personally, I think you should kill the lich on Mercy even if you don't have the Requiem sequence correct.  Obviously they come back if you don't get the sequence right, but the way it works now is just. . . kinda. . . insulting. 

I mean, they're supposed to be all scary and dangerous, but if you want to sell that they need to be that way in the actual gameplay, not by suddenly get folded up like you're a Care-Bear that wandered into a Mortal Kombat tourney.  This happens without regard to your actions, hard struggle or dropping them before they even get a shot off. 

Personally, yes to your idea there, but I also feel like the Liches should have some Insta-Kill moves to make them a legit threat.

But, like, make these moves VERY obvious, and VERY projected. For those who have played Elderscrolls Online you might be familiar with the "Red Circles": A Zone that quickly fades in (similar to the Raptor's "Missile Target Zones" that appear on the ground) that communicate to the Player "DON'T be standing here or your world is about to get rek'd!!". Do some that are rectangle shaped highlights that project a Nox Charge attack that tell the Player "Stop spamming Melee in his face and Move Aside Now!", similar to the Nidus's outline style for his 1st ability if you hold the power down (showing you where it will go). Maybe an AoE Circle that forms around them when they're about to do a massive stomp that stuns the Player, and is followed by a grab+animation, etc.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Tangent-Valley

[(PSN)Silverback73]

21 minutes ago, CriticalFumble said:

Personally, I think you should kill the lich on Mercy even if you don't have the Requiem sequence correct.  Obviously they come back if you don't get the sequence right, but the way it works now is just. . . kinda. . . insulting. 

I mean, they're supposed to be all scary and dangerous, but if you want to sell that they need to be that way in the actual gameplay, not by suddenly get folded up like you're a Care-Bear that wandered into a Mortal Kombat tourney.  This happens without regard to your actions, hard struggle or dropping them before they even get a shot off. 

I completely agree.  However, it seems the programmers have thrown in the towel here.  After two years, a work-around is probably realistic vs a complete rework (which isn’t).

My suggestion adds yet another layer of grind/farm, but that is because I am mindful of the business model, and if obtaining an item involves good ‘ole fashioned Warframe combat, I’m all for it.

So yeah, I understand DE needs to keep real world revenues in mind.

The current mechanic does the opposite of making me contribute.

Edited November 13, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Uhkretor]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

No.

Then you shouldn't judge before it gets out. Its impossible to please everyone, some people hate it and some people love it.

The only thing I am disappointed with is the Lich lvl cap set at 5. Considering that I have pretty much 80% of the stuff and the fact that I steamroll through the Star chart (and more players, but I'm talking about my personal case here), having to run missions in order to "eliminate influence" against lvl100 enemies across the Star chart is actually refreshing... A LOT more refreshing than running Sorties on a daily basis.

... If I want to run dailies, I'll just log in over at Nutaku and run those there. Besides... All that stolen loot... I'm guessing that I'm going to get back over 10bil worth of credits, and hundreds of thousands of several types of different resources, mods, void traces and some other stuff I can't seem to remember, as soon as I kill my Lich... Whicb is only 10 different combination attempts away, so... Yeah, I'm pretty bummed that its capped at lvl5, I mean... even at the capped level, I can still one-shot him so... disappointing. I expected more... Like a lvl30 cap on the Lich, while tagging G3 and Stalker at the same time, now that's fun.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

12 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Considering we get 4 whole revives per mission, as a vet myself I don't think I've ever really felt starved for revives that much, and I'm not even that good at the game.

If the Lich is breaking our spines and slamming our skulls into the ground it would feel kinda anticlimactic if we just got up and kept fighting like we fell off a K-Drive, especially if we then just watch the Lich disappear in a puff of smoke.

Yep, death and risk and interactive CONFLICT has been cheapened to the point that even when they strip you of all power in these respects with a game design non-choice like this, many just accept it as par for the course.

 

It leaves me incredulous.  Obtaining that Kuva gear to the point of ignoring this tactic is madness.  It’s a tipping point for many of us.

Warframe was always about great gameplay seamlessly blending with a great rewards system with time invested.

Do you see where we are with this?

DE is just straight up repeatedly killing us while playing a guessing game as an added time sink prior to us slaughtering our next Lich.

I don’t feel like a powerful Warframe.

I’m not engrossed in the combat I came to love about this game.

And I no longer feel that DE is trying to give me a great gaming experience because they have faith that doing so will result in me giving them my hard earned money (It has in the past and it still could).

Instead, for the first time, they’ve given us ways to literally buy our way past this guess-fail-die mechanic that has nothing to do with great combat or immersion.

Maybe I’m in the minority, but I always gave money to reward great art, great story, and great combat...not to avoid long bouts of drowning in misery to surface and experience brief moments of joy.

I’m asking for a fiscally responsible compromise here because I really do love the years of joy DE’s hard work has given.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

36 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Then you shouldn't judge before it gets out. Its impossible to please everyone, some people hate it and some people love it.

The only thing I am disappointed with is the Lich lvl cap set at 5. Considering that I have pretty much 80% of the stuff and the fact that I steamroll through the Star chart (and more players, but I'm talking about my personal case here), having to run missions in order to "eliminate influence" against lvl100 enemies across the Star chart is actually refreshing... A LOT more refreshing than running Sorties on a daily basis.

... If I want to run dailies, I'll just log in over at Nutaku and run those there. Besides... All that stolen loot... I'm guessing that I'm going to get back over 10bil worth of credits, and hundreds of thousands of several types of different resources, mods, void traces and some other stuff I can't seem to remember, as soon as I kill my Lich... Whicb is only 10 different combination attempts away, so... Yeah, I'm pretty bummed that its capped at lvl5, I mean... even at the capped level, I can still one-shot him so... disappointing. I expected more... Like a lvl30 cap on the Lich, while tagging G3 and Stalker at the same time, now that's fun.

I don’t need to play it.  I refuse to accept dying with no choice in the matter.  Luckily I did see it.  Or I might never have contributed to Warframe again.

And you just proved my point the programmers essentially gave up on challenging vets with combat.  So they just bypassed it and added grind that insta-kills.  Right before you one-shot your next R5 Lich.

Edited November 13, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Uhkretor]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

And you just proved my point the programmers essentially gave up on challenging vets with combat.

I don't know what you expected from them but the best challenges are always self-imposed.

 

The Lich is going to be there just to prove you this: If you think your meta build is worth something, you're wrong. It sucks, and it sucks hard.

Was my build affected by the Lich?

47 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

even at the capped level, I can still one-shot him so... disappointing. I expected more...

And I'm not using any Meta build. I'm using the very same build that I made since I started back on U7...

... U7. And the Lich mission nodes are capped to the maximum level where the game is, by the dev's definition, working as intended. Meaning that anything beyond lvl100 is effectively broken, on a node belonging to any faction. I honestly was expecting a higher Lich lvl cap, really.

No, your problem isn't the Lich system (which is incomplete due to its major features being tied to Empyrean). Your problem is exactly the same one that a restricted small majority is complaining about... Getting killed by a finisher move despite their builds being Meta. Now I'm going to say the same thing I said someone else a few days ago...

If the Lich wants you dead, you're dead. And your build will matter to the Lich, and its finisher attack, as much as a dust particle.

The only active problem I can point to the Lich is Rescue missions... Really easy to fail Rescue missions on Ceres when the Lich grabs the Operative and throws him/her into the acid pit and he/she doesn't get recalled. Instant failure, and I learned that the hard way... I also found it amusingly interesting too, because everyone stopped, including the Drehkars, the Grineer soldiers and me just to see the rescue target get thrown into the pit and no one moved until he/she died.

 

You're lucky though. Once the update gets released to that weird thing you call "PS4", you'll have the option to create a Lich, or not, included. 100% of us didn't have that possibility up to...

... what, 3 days ago?...

 

The Lich system bothers you more inside your head than on practical terms in the Client now.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Uhkretor

[(PSN)Silverback73]

49 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

I don't know what you expected from them but the best challenges are always self-imposed.

 

The Lich is going to be there just to prove you this: If you think your meta build is worth something, you're wrong. It sucks, and it sucks hard.

Was my build affected by the Lich?

And I'm not using any Meta build. I'm using the very same build that I made since I started back on U7...

... U7. And the Lich mission nodes are capped to the maximum level where the game is, by the dev's definition, working as intended. Meaning that anything beyond lvl100 is effectively broken, on a node belonging to any faction.

No, your problem isn't the Lich system (which is incomplete due to its major features being tied to Empyrean). Your problem is exactly the same one that a restricted small majority is complaining about... Getting killed by a finisher move despite their builds being Meta. Now I'm going to say the same thing I said someone else a few days ago...

If the Lich wants you dead, you're dead. And your build will matter to the Lich, and its finisher attack, as much as a dust particle.

The only active problem I can point to the Lich is Rescue missions... Relaly easy to fail Rescue missions on Ceres when the Lich grabs the Operative and throws him/her into the acid pit and he/she doesn't get recalled. Instant failure, and I learned that the hard way... I also found it amusingly interesting too, because everyone stopped, including the Drehkars, the Grineer soldiers and me just to see the rescue target get thrown into the pit and no one moved until he/she died.

You’ve entirely missed my point. I’m not a META-driven player.  I’m a grinder who enjoys power, sure, but it’s about the experience...the combat.

”If the Lich wants you dead”...no, not really.

You’re trying to sell a forced narrative, here.  

DE kills us with a purely RNG based (and heavily biased) time-sink mechanic that has NOTHING to do with fighting a Lich.  It’s a grindwall that is forcibly married to the Lich “leveling up” with no choice or skill involved.

On the one hand, you talk the Lich up as Doom incarnate.  Yet previously you speak of one-shotting it in utter disappointment.

You can’t marry these two disparate viewpoints, though you valiantly try.

The first is your forced narrative.  

The second is your viewpoint as a META player in the part of the game that you actually play.

Again, proving my point.

My viewpoint may not be popular, but this isn't about right vs wrong. It’s just my passion for the game coming out.

I want you to know I appreciate the time and thought you’ve put into my thread.

Thank you.

Edited November 13, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Uhkretor]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

1) You’ve entirely missed my point. I’m not a META-driven player.  I’m a grinder who enjoys power, sure, but it’s about the experience...the combat.

2) ”If the Lich wants you dead”...no, not really.

3) You’re trying to sell a forced narrative, here.  

4) DE kills us with a purely RNG based (and heavily biased) time-sink mechanic that has NOTHING to do with fighting a Lich.  It’s a grindwall that is forcibly married to the Lich “leveling up” with no choice or skill involved.

5) On the one hand, you talk the Lich up as Doom incarnate.  Yet previously you speak of one-shotting it in utter disappointment.

6) You can’t marry these two disparate viewpoints, though you valiantly try.

7) The first is your forced narrative.  

😎 The second is your viewpoint as a META player in the part of the game that you actually play.

9) Again, proving my point.

10) I want you to know I appreciate the time and thought you’ve put into my thread.

11) Thank you.

1 - Glad to know you're in it for the experience, the Lich system will give you plenty about it.

2 - "no, not really."... Yes, really. That's the system in a nutshell

3 - I'm not, but the Lich will.

4 - Welcome to Warframe. Did you expect something else from Warframe other than RNG? That's what Destiny's for.

5 - I do one-shot it without effort, on its capped level. My disappointment is solely due to the fact that its capped at 5.

6 - I'm not trying anything. If you felt like I tried it, then you have yourself and only you to blame for your misunderstanding.

7 - No forced narrative, Point 6) for further reference.

8 - I fervently detest Meta players. If I had my way, I would've gone Thanos on their existence.

9 - I'm not proving your point. Points 2) and 4) for further reference.

10/11 - You're welcome, also the hint for me to "get lost" got Lich'd out of here.

 

Look, skimming through a book is acceptable... skimming through a few lines of test on a post leads to misunderstandings that simply do not exist. I suggest you read the whole thing properly (including edits that you may "conveniently" have skipped) to avoid such misunderstandings.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Uhkretor

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

I don't like the insta gib.

I'd like to have a sequence in which you have to "transference" and then "dash onto the liche" to make him/her drop your frame and avoid insta gib. This would require some proper timing. It would be consistent with how we defeated the queen and how we disarm kuva guardian... and I'd even say "the lore".

Obviously wrong timing would imply death.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

11 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

1 - Glad to know you're in it for the experience, the Lich system will give you plenty about it.

2 - "no, not really."... Yes, really. That's the system in a nutshell

3 - I'm not, but the Lich will.

4 - Welcome to Warframe. Did you expect something else from Warframe other than RNG? That's what Destiny's for.

5 - I do one-shot it without effort, on its capped level. My disappointment is solely due to the fact that its capped at 5.

6 - I'm not trying anything. If you felt like I tried it, then you have yourself and only you to blame for your misunderstanding.

7 - No forced narrative, Point 6) for further reference.

8 - I fervently detest Meta players. If I had my way, I would've gone Thanos on their existence.

9 - I'm not proving your point. Points 2) and 4) for further reference.

10/11 - You're welcome, also the hint for me to "get lost" got Lich'd out of here.

 

Look, skimming through a book is acceptable... skimming through a few lines of test on a post leads to misunderstandings that simply do not exist. I suggest you read the whole thing properly (including edits that you may "conveniently" have skipped) to avoid such misunderstandings.

I never wanted you to “get lost”.  Apologies if you felt I was implying that.  Our viewpoints differ.  I read your posts, and re-read them. And applied critical thought.  I can disagree and still respect your viewpoint, and want to make sure you know that I do respect it.  And appreciate it.

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[DoomFruit]

15 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

If the Lich wants you dead, you're dead. And your build will matter to the Lich, and its finisher attack, as much as a dust particle.

So, "liches" only want you dead if you don't have the right order of battery-powered mods in your parazon?

The game has committed an unforgivable sin here in the form of cutscene incompetence. If the player is to lose a battle, it should only be because they have personally lost the fight. Having the player win their battle through whatever means (either skill, or having geared perfectly against the enemy's weaknesses and strengths) and then to kill them afterwards during a cutscene is bullS#&$ of the highest order.

[Oreades]

No just take out the Lich Insta kills all together, it's bad game design, full stop.

Replace it with The Lich Imploding in on themselves (RECYCLE THE HECCIN GRENDLE CONSUMER VFX) along with some lingering threat about not defeating them and how they will be back~ 

When/If they actually manage to legit down you THEN let them trigger the instakill animation what cause you're already teh deadz.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

20 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

I don't like the insta gib.

I'd like to have a sequence in which you have to "transference" and then "dash onto the liche" to make him/her drop your frame and avoid insta gib. This would require some proper timing. It would be consistent with how we defeated the queen and how we disarm kuva guardian... and I'd even say "the lore".

Obviously wrong timing would imply death.

I kind of...love this suggestion. It’s like the old PS4 game “Sword of Heaven” and good o’ole Kratos taking on the Greek Gods. Yes,I approve.

[DatDarkOne]

On 2019-11-12 at 6:41 PM, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Instead, for the first time, they’ve given us ways to literally buy our way past this guess-fail-die mechanic that has nothing to do with great combat or immersion.

^^This is very true of the whole Lich Process.  It also happens to be the only part of the Kuva Lich process that annoys the hell out of me.  I don't mind the Liches getting tougher, or the instant kills to much.  I do hate all the overly needless grinding just to face off against the dang Lich and have a chance of winning.  

Notice I said a chance of winning.  Because even if you have all the mods and know which 3 to use, it's luck should you get all three in the correct order.  That's RNG (relics) on top of RNG (requiem mods) on top of more RNG (Unlocking which 3 mods to use) followed by RNG (correct order).  

There's no skill or tactics involved in the whole process that can bring victory.