Revert glaive/thrown weapon combo hit multiplier nerf

[SirLethal]

In today's hotfix 26.0.7 this change was made (Removed Combo Hit Multiplier with Glaive's hit damage. Only explosive damage will use the Combo Multiplier.). This is a step backwards as this previously lackluster weapon type felt new and refreshing as throwing your thrown weapon actually felt rewarding once you raised your combo multiplier. without this functionality the weapon might as well just be another regular weapon because the throwing function has once again become useless as it does literally no damage. I went from being able to kill a 125 corrupted heavy gunner with 2-3 throws at a 12x multiplier to it taking over 10 throws sometimes close to 15 at the same multiplier. Now i understand that only heavy attacks were intended to benefit from the combo multiplier but maybe some exception or middle ground can be made/met like a buff to the throwing portion of the weapons damage because this was a big disappointment to log into as i was actively using my glaive prime and wolf sledge and now while the melee damage is still good ive lost all incentive to use either of these weapons over others as I was taking advantage of the thrown aspect.

Edited November 22, 2019 by SirLethal

[YagoXiten]

4 minutes ago, SirLethal said:

In today's hotfix 26.0.7 this change as made (Removed Combo Hit Multiplier with Glaive's hit damage. Only explosive damage will use the Combo Multiplier.). This is a step backwards as this previously lackluster weapon type felt new and refreshing as throwing your thrown weapon actually felt rewarding once you raised your combo multiplier. without this functionality the weapon might as well just be another regular weapon because the throwing function has once again become useless as it does literally no damage. I went from being able to kill a 125 corrupted heavy gunner with 2-3 throws to it taking over 10 throws sometimes close to 15 at the same multiplier. Now i understand that only heavy attacks were intended to benefit from the combo multiplier but maybe some exception or middle ground can be made/met like a buff to the throwing portion of the weapons damage because this was a big disappointment to log into as i was actively using my glaive prime and wolf sledge and now while the melee damage is still good ive lost all incentive to use either of these weapons over others was I as taking advantage of the thrown aspect.

Pretty much this.

 

If it's intended to prevent you from using melee's incredible scaling damage to decimate high level enemies at long range I guess that'd make some sense, but Bullet Dance exists so that's moot.

[Otis.Driftwood]

One would have thought that considering it takes some good aiming skill to even throw your glaive at any distance , that getting high damage was risk vs reward, since while glaive is in flight you lose your block .

This change make absolutely no sense at all since glaives without combo damage multiplier on hits make this weapon worse than mk1 Bo.

Combo multiplier gives increased damage on every other weapon except glaives now? who makes these decisions? Please book them back into the hospital before more future "fixes" 

So either revert the change OR gimp every other melee weapon from not using damage multiplier on hits as well. 

[Tyreaus]

To play devil's advocate for a bit:

The reason they made this change was because players could get 12x combo up on Glaives and not only use that combo on throws, but also keep it as long as one recalled the Glaive with regular melee. The throws, after all, don't expend the combo counter. Every other weapon's attack either benefits from the combo counter and expends it, or doesn't do either. That includes Gunblades. Thus, to nudge Glaives into line with other melee weapons, there's two fixes:

1. Make any charged attack with Glaives count as a heavy attack, explosion or not, so the entire throw gets (and expends) the combo counter bonus, or
2. Make the explosion count as the heavy attack so players can gain combo via regular throws.

If you're wanting things to be consistent like DE does, those are the two options that fit within current mechanics. Simple reversion isn't going to work well.

Which one do you advocate for? And how popular a solution would that really be? Or is there another solution with updated Glaive mechanics, e.g. block + heavy attack doing a charged throw that benefits from and expends the combo counter ala dual wielding mechanics (without finnicky timing issues)?

[Otis.Driftwood]

According to patch notes Update 26

Every melee weapon benefits from combo counter without having to expend it by providing a flat damage bonus.

"The Combo Counter will be getting a new functionality pass. Rather than just providing flat bonuses to damage, the Combo Counter will now also act as an expendable resource for new heavy hitting combat: HEAVY ATTACKS! "

Flat damage bonus from combo multiplier is effectively removed from glaive now , so getting a 12x multiplier does sweet FA for normal hits as  (Removed Combo Hit Multiplier with

Glaive's hit damage. Only explosive damage will use the Combo Multiplier.)

I think just actually hitting a target without bouncing it of a rhino or an excals skull because they stand in front of players trying to hit something should be rewarded with the 12x damage on throw. Losing that damage because of said types of players who seem to like nothing more than standing in front of everyone and blocking actual combat from everyone else is more annoying than the odd few who were using glaives and enjoying them.

I cant see the problem letting glaives be unique now they are unique for quite a different reason.

 

[Tyreaus]

2 minutes ago, Otis.Driftwood said:

Every melee weapon benefits from combo counter without having to expend it by providing a flat damage bonus.

They don't. Their wording isn't that good—pesky "also" sitting in there—but you can test it with any weapon's regular attacks and they don't benefit from the combo counter. The only attacks that do benefit are the ones that also drain it. For example: Prisma Skana, L155 Corrupted Bombards, first attack deals 39 damage with no mods. Also deals 39 damage with combo. Charge attack at 12x, on the other hand, seems to deal around 764. At 1x, it deals 39.

As for the rest, I can only shrug. It's a matter of consistency. In my personal opinion, I think throwing weapons being able to one-shot 155 Corrupted Bombards (Glaive Prime could do it with the guaranteed Slash procs) without losing combo is a touch too far above where they set everything else. Sure, that makes it unique, but it's uniqueness that sets it back up on the power shelf from which DE took melee weapons down.

Besides, being real? Primed Pressure Point, Condition Overload, Killing Blow, Primed Fury, Corrupt Charge, North Wind, Primed Fever Strike, Molten Impact. On a Glaive Prime, gets 10K slash procs from the explosion. Will 2-shot those 155 Corrupted Bombards with no combo ramp-up required. The only difference is that throwing weapons aren't the only ones able to get those sorts of numbers, so it's still consistent.

[Otis.Driftwood]

not just a pesky also. when this is stated before the also . " Rather than just providing flat bonuses to damage "

So either DE is wrong and screwed the pooch or your just  not noticing the FLAT damage bonus. FLAT damage means a set amount and that's it.

 

[Tyreaus]

Just now, Otis.Driftwood said:

not just a pesky also. when this is stated before the also . " Rather than just providing flat bonuses to damage "

So either DE is wrong and screwed the pooch or your just  not noticing the FLAT damage bonus. FLAT damage means a set amount and that's it.

All the weapons had their damage values increased post-update 26, so it would be impossible to discern some kind of flat damage increase within that. And so far as my memory serves me, my throw-centric build on my Glaive is getting the same numbers as before this recent change. At minimum, the difference isn't gigantic: I know I was getting somewhere north of 10K Slash procs and I continue to get a little above 10K.

[Lone_Dude]

The most logical fix is to simply give weapons that have somewhat special heavy attacks, a different combo counter consumption rate on heavy attacks. Makes no sense to me that weapons BASED AROUND HEAVY ATTACKS benefit the least from them and are punished the hardest.

In a perfect world DE would manually balance combo consumption for every weapon, but I suppose going "OH YEAH LETS GIVE PLAYERS A MECHANIC THAT WILL REMOVE THEIR ENTIRE COMBO COUNTER FOR 1 ATTACK THAT MIGHT MISS UNLESS THEY GREATLY NERF THEMSELVES BY REPLACING NORMAL MODS WITH HEAVY ATTACK FOCUSED MODS" is what we get.

[Balandrus]

Completely unnecessary nerf.  If their argument is "scaling," the easiest response is: it's risky to throw away your melee weapon.  Prime example is the Wolf Sledge.  Yeah, it could do insane damage on a throw headshot, but you're giving up your melee weapon while you wait for it to return.  Seemed like a fair trade-off. Now, my Wolf Sledge is back on the shelf, because the recall damage just isn't worth it and the Fragor Prime is an all-around better 2h Hammer.

[z3us32610]

Agreed. Throwing the glaive was really fun until this hotfix. I was enjoying using the glaive with all of it's attacks. Now the throw isn't really worth it. Please revert DE.

[SirLethal]

13 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

To play devil's advocate for a bit:

The reason they made this change was because players could get 12x combo up on Glaives and not only use that combo on throws, but also keep it as long as one recalled the Glaive with regular melee. The throws, after all, don't expend the combo counter. Every other weapon's attack either benefits from the combo counter and expends it, or doesn't do either. That includes Gunblades. Thus, to nudge Glaives into line with other melee weapons, there's two fixes:

1. Make any charged attack with Glaives count as a heavy attack, explosion or not, so the entire throw gets (and expends) the combo counter bonus, or
2. Make the explosion count as the heavy attack so players can gain combo via regular throws.

If you're wanting things to be consistent like DE does, those are the two options that fit within current mechanics. Simple reversion isn't going to work well.

Which one do you advocate for? And how popular a solution would that really be? Or is there another solution with updated Glaive mechanics, e.g. block + heavy attack doing a charged throw that benefits from and expends the combo counter ala dual wielding mechanics (without finnicky timing issues)?

I understand that the previous version may have been slightly overpowered but saying they "brought it in line with other melee weapons" is a bit of an oversight...as previously stated i went from being able to kill a 125 corrupted heavy gunner with 2-3 throws at a 12 x multiplier (which in all honesty seems fair to me when there are weapons that could accomplish the same with less) to it taking over 10 sometimes close to 15 throws to accomplish the same with the same exact loadout (this is not an exaggeration)...and being that these are classified as THROWING weapons i think the throwing aspect of them should be strong and reliable not something that you can just do to say you're doing it so again i just want some kind of middle ground to be met...that being said your first idea of making the throw itself benefit from the combo counter and use it up instead of building it would be a good move because you could easily build your multiplier and then throw your weapon for some big damage and then rinse and repeat and if you throw in some combo efficiency mods you can achieve a lesser version of the per nerf version by not completely using up your multiplier for every throw thus actually bringing the weapon type in line with other weapons as this is how every other weapon type functions when your press the heavy attack button

12 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

They don't. Their wording isn't that good—pesky "also" sitting in there—but you can test it with any weapon's regular attacks and they don't benefit from the combo counter. The only attacks that do benefit are the ones that also drain it. For example: Prisma Skana, L155 Corrupted Bombards, first attack deals 39 damage with no mods. Also deals 39 damage with combo. Charge attack at 12x, on the other hand, seems to deal around 764. At 1x, it deals 39.

As for the rest, I can only shrug. It's a matter of consistency. In my personal opinion, I think throwing weapons being able to one-shot 155 Corrupted Bombards (Glaive Prime could do it with the guaranteed Slash procs) without losing combo is a touch too far above where they set everything else. Sure, that makes it unique, but it's uniqueness that sets it back up on the power shelf from which DE took melee weapons down.

Besides, being real? Primed Pressure Point, Condition Overload, Killing Blow, Primed Fury, Corrupt Charge, North Wind, Primed Fever Strike, Molten Impact. On a Glaive Prime, gets 10K slash procs from the explosion. Will 2-shot those 155 Corrupted Bombards with no combo ramp-up required. The only difference is that throwing weapons aren't the only ones able to get those sorts of numbers, so it's still consistent.

continuing from my points above...while i get that the explosion mechanic essentially works like what ive just suggested for the throw and you could just apply the same logic to the weapons now and utilize the explosion in that manner I would like to not have to rely on the explosion as playing around the actual throw itself feels more fun and rewarding but thats just a personal preference...so in conclusion while maybe a change was necessary this wasn't the way to go as they've done more than just "take it don from a powershelf" they've made the weapon type completely undesirable to play with when placed against other melee options which is a step backwards as they have been very vocal about trying to balance the game in a manner which moves all the different weapon types into being used somewhat equally

[Tyreaus]

3 minutes ago, SirLethal said:

-snip-

By the sounds of it, and correct me if I may be wrong, you're wanting the charge attack to affect the throw all the way through, from the projectile itself to the explosion. And I don't have any disagreement with that, that's just option 1 and that creates just as much consistency as before. _{It's also why I was so specific on the mechanics change that can get the best of both, hint hint.}

[SirLethal]

exactly 

[Tyreaus]

9 hours ago, SirLethal said:

exactly 

Then yeah, I see no problem with that. I think DE did it the way they did because they wanted throwing weapons to have a way to gain combo with throw attacks. It makes sense, they're weapons to be thrown. But the easiest way to do that with the system they have (i.e. one that doesn't have two versions of throws) is to make it apply to the explosion only. Possibly just a stopgap, but if not...

Please, DE, can we has quick and heavy throws so we can demolish things with throws by themselves? I want to decapitate some mofos.

[geogame11]

On 2019-11-15 at 2:32 AM, Tyreaus said:

To play devil's advocate for a bit:

The reason they made this change was because players could get 12x combo up on Glaives and not only use that combo on throws, but also keep it as long as one recalled the Glaive with regular melee. The throws, after all, don't expend the combo counter. Every other weapon's attack either benefits from the combo counter and expends it, or doesn't do either. That includes Gunblades. Thus, to nudge Glaives into line with other melee weapons, there's two fixes:

1. Make any charged attack with Glaives count as a heavy attack, explosion or not, so the entire throw gets (and expends) the combo counter bonus, or
2. Make the explosion count as the heavy attack so players can gain combo via regular throws.

If you're wanting things to be consistent like DE does, those are the two options that fit within current mechanics. Simple reversion isn't going to work well.

Which one do you advocate for? And how popular a solution would that really be? Or is there another solution with updated Glaive mechanics, e.g. block + heavy attack doing a charged throw that benefits from and expends the combo counter ala dual wielding mechanics (without finnicky timing issues)?

"Make any charged attack with Glaives count as a heavy attack" That is my perfect fix.

[quietcanary]

16 hours ago, geogame11 said:

"Make any charged attack with Glaives count as a heavy attack" That is my perfect fix.

Isnt that what we have now? Btw I'm doing orvius testing myself and the lockdown mechanic seems like it doesnt work more than half the time and the only thing that consumes combo is the final tic on the lockdown.

 

[SirLethal]

No thats not what we have now its what we somewhat had before this patch except not really because the combo counter wasn’t being consumed by normal throws but was benefitting from it what we have now is the combo counter isnt consumed and normal throws are also not benefitting from it what we would like to have is normal throws benefiting from the combo counter while also consuming it 

[(PSN)FunkyTown_76]

This change to glaive weapons, combined with other changes in the game over the past year or more have seem to all combined indirectly to send glaives into the realm of negative damage.

I love glaives and always have. The best part about thrown weapons has always been the huge damage you can achieve with a perfect charge since dual wielding has been a thing. They now feel like throwing a dry towel at the enemy. Seems like an odd decision to reverse direction on a weapons' core feature.

I'm not sure if this future "rage" mechanic will bring back some damage potential for glaives or not, but they feel really bad atm. Especially if you have spent time with them in the past.

 Beyond any changes to damage calculations the inability to use a heavy attack while dual wileding, or use a charged throw while in melee mode, both feel incredibly off/ unintuitive.

Appreciate the effort in what you guys are trying to achieve, many of the melee changes feel amazing, but please don't destroy glaives.  :)

Edited November 22, 2019 by (PS4)FunkyTown_76

[Loopgru]

What's lost in this discussion is the effective attack speed and general ease-of-use of these weapons. Yes, glaive throws and wolf sledge throws could make some real crowd pleaser numbers, but they are also fiddly, slow projectiles with finicky hit detection and no aoe except when detonated. This is the same reason that no one runs around screaming that sniper rifles are OP despite the incredible damage numbers- they're inherently balanced by the way they operate. 

TL;DR please un-nerf my fun, it was fine as it was.

[Achimundso]

Please make the throw into a heavy attack and the explosion into a normal attack that does not benefit from heavy attack bonuses.

[Icarust312]

And they still haven't done S#&$

[Lone_Dude]

38 minutes ago, Icarust312 said:

And they still haven't done S#&$

B-but they added wear and tear for your orbiter! That's more important than gameplay.  

[alseltas]

It seems there is a bug that Critical Damage Multiplier does not apply on the explosion.

[Litus42]

Is that confirmed to be a bug? It's been the case for so long surely they would have patched it...

Additionally it seems the throw and explosion don't benefit from Condition Overload, which is also a big issue.