Toxic lich hunter bullies are spreading "badwill", ban them.

[Zekkii]

10 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

I don't see why there needs to be a "moral high ground" here. I have no issues killing my lich, but I'm not going to force someone else to do it. It's not hard to try looking from the point of view being presented by those who don't want to commit get taller every time the juicy bois appear.

Regardless, I think we can both agree that players shouldn't be put into a position where they can hold up the entire party.

[SordidDreams]

9 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

seriously, just stab the darn lich and get on with it. if you cant handle them getting stronger, dont go after them in the first place.

That's a very selfish viewpoint

10 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

which is bad game design as well you know

So is literally everything you're proposing, which is why it's a good thing you're not a game designer.

[zoffmode]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

That's a very selfish viewpoint

If majority of a team wants to play a certain way but a single player is refusing to cooperate and also doesn't leave then by definition he's the one being selfish.

[NightBlitz]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

That's a very selfish viewpoint

So is literally everything you're proposing, which is why it's a good thing you're not a game designer.

so its now selfish to state that if you cant handle something, you shouldn't do it in the first place? really?

if you cant handle the heat, get out of the kitchen, its simple as that. tho DE really should add some kind of bonus for higher level liches

[KnightOwl_]

DE just needs to change the ignore list so you won’t group up in a pug with someone on the list.  Then you can slowly build up a list of idiots who don’t attack their lich for “reasons.”  

[-Jorsch-]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Cargan2016 said:

To be honest if I decide to kill or not kill lich when it appears is my own decission and I have my own reasons to do so.  If people are a holes in chat because i dont kill it for my own reasons they are free to leave the mission or just shut the heck up.  I will and have reported people for being rude and harassing in game before for not playing their way in past and i have  no problem doing it again

So let me get this straight, You deciding to not attack your lich, therefore holding the rest of the group's lich spawns hostage for the entirety of the run. In this scenario you are the problematic player here, and your answer to people's justified frustration is they should leave or just shut up. If you don't want to kill your lich, that is your decision, but if that's the decision you're going to make you should just play on private and save the other 3 people you'd be grouping with the frustration involved in dealing with you as a player.

[Gasau]

oh. How about every one in the team get murmur progress after any lich "death"? That all players would be happy and completely solve the problem of huge toxicity in the game?

 

 

OH RIGHT! THESE GENIUS HOTFIXED IT. 

[SordidDreams]

14 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

so its now selfish to state that if you cant handle something, you shouldn't do it in the first place? really?

Well yeah. What else is the point of playing in a group if not to get help from other people? Seems pretty obvious to me.

14 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

DE really should add some kind of bonus for higher level liches

That's the first thing you said that I agree with. Currently there's zero benefit to leveling up the lich, which is at least partly why people avoid doing it.

15 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

If majority of a team wants to play a certain way but a single player is refusing to cooperate and also doesn't leave then by definition he's the one being selfish.

Wrong. It depends on the relative harm suffered by each side. Not stabbing a lich has a minimal impact on other players, whereas stabbing it and leveling it up gradually increases the level of the lich missions from the initial 50 up to 100, increasing enemy effective health by a factor of twelve. It's selfish and unreasonable to ask someone to increase their future thrall mission difficulty that much just so you can maybe get your measly 10 murmurs, if your lich even spawns at all, of which you have no guarantee.

Edited November 15, 2019 by SordidDreams

[zoffmode]

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Wrong. It depends on the relative harm suffered by each side. Not stabbing a lich has a minimal impact on other players, whereas stabbing it and leveling it up gradually increases the level of the lich missions from the initial 50 up to 100, increasing enemy effective health by a factor of twelve. It's selfish and unreasonable to ask someone to increase their future thrall mission difficulty that much just so you can maybe get your measly 10 murmurs, if your lich even spawns at all, of which you have no guarantee.

I'd argue that Lich hunting is supposed to be end-game content and player farming them shouldn't have any difficulty with increased levels. Furthermore, if you're hunting in public... you're gonna do your next missions in public as well. So there's virtually no harm done to the player.

[RX-3DR]

Next time, join an Endless Relic run and during the intermission, demand that other people use specific relics (e.g "You're selfish if you don't use a Radiant Axi A6 Relic!") and then come to the forum to make a thread about how people are selfish and blocking your Prime farming when they refuse to do so. If you get told off by people, just tell them to solo because they're not contributing to your Prime farming and only people farming for the newest Prime release with Radiant relics are allowed to do pub Void Fissures.

Some people just can't see under their own noses.

[zoffmode]

8 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Next time, join an Endless Relic run and during the intermission, demand that other people use specific relics (e.g "You're selfish if you don't use a Radiant Axi A6 Relic!") and then come to the forum to make a thread about how people are selfish and blocking your Prime farming when they refuse to do so. If you get told off by people, just tell them to solo because they're not contributing to your Prime farming and only people farming for the newest Prime release with Radiant relics are allowed to do pub Void Fissures.

Some people just can't see under their own noses.

Yeah, I agree that "some people just can't see under their own noses". That comparison would only make sense if not picking specific relic would prevent other players from doing so.

Edited November 15, 2019 by zoffmode

[SordidDreams]

18 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

I'd argue that Lich hunting is supposed to be end-game content and player farming them shouldn't have any difficulty with increased levels. Furthermore, if you're hunting in public... you're gonna do your next missions in public as well. So there's virtually no harm done to the player.

I'd argue getting help from other players is the whole point of a co-op game. If everyone were able to handle the content they play, there would be no point to playing in a group. And yes, you're playing in public, which is precisely why you might end up as host and/or grouped with other people who aren't able to one-shot level 100 mobs (which only a tiny minority of the player base are able to do). Given that there's no upside to leveling a lich other than the small one-time murmur gain, I'd say it's advantageous for everybody to keep their liches unleveled for as long as possible in order to keep the mission difficulty low. If murmur gain from liches was multiplied by their rank, so a rank 5 lich gave 50 murmurs instead of just 10, then yeah, I'd say stab away. But that's not the case.

Edited November 15, 2019 by SordidDreams

[RX-3DR]

1 minute ago, zoffmode said:

Yeah, I agree that "some people just can't see under their own noses". That comparison would only make sense if not picking specific relic would prevent other players from doing so.

And you only get 1 mission in the entire world to spawn your Lich? If I don't have that relic but I want other people to use it because then, I get my chance for an Atlas Prime piece, it's suddenly fine? After all, him not picking that relic would prevent me from getting it.

[Mr.Fluffins]

To those who say that players have to fight their liches in pubs no matter what and it's ok to pressure them:

People who expect others to play the way they personally find convenient in public matches are... not very bright, let's put it this way. Nobody ows you anyrthing in a public game, and they can do whatever they want (as long as it is within the rules of conduct set by the developers), and if you can't handle it, form a group of like minded individuals or play solo. Don't recall "not killing your lich" being a bannable offence.

When I get a full team of leechers in a profit-taker fight, who refuse to even kill the corpus fodder on the ground and hide in void mode all fight, do you see me going to forums crying how "mean people in public matches" should be punished for not playing the way I want them to? No, because the moment I decide to use public matchmaking, I automatically void all right to complain about my teammates, unless they are violating TOS.

To the topic starter:

Actual harrasment should be reported, pay no heed to such toxic players.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Mr.Fluffins

[zoffmode]

  

8 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I'd argue getting help from other players is the whole point of a co-op game. If everyone were be able to handle the content they play, there would be no point to playing in a group. And yes, you're playing in public, which is precisely why you might end up as host and/or grouped with other people who aren't able to one-shot level 100 mobs (which is a tiny minority of the player base). Given that there's no upside to leveling a lich other than the small murmur gain, I'd say it's advantageous for everybody to keep their liches unleveled for as long as possible in order to keep the mission difficulty low. If murmur gain from liches was multiplied by their rank, so a rank 5 lich gave 50 murmurs instead of just 10, then yeah, I'd say stab away. But that's not the case.

There's plenty of upsides. You can guess the Requiem and finish Lich faster (not even that low of a chance). You unlock more planets and better nodes. You get more affinity. You actually get to have more fun and challenging content (arguably some people don't want that I suppose). You get to see other people's Liches and help them as well. Have actual coop experience. Probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting but it's late.

 

7 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

And you only get 1 mission in the entire world to spawn your Lich? If I don't have that relic but I want other people to use it because then, I get my chance for an Atlas Prime piece, it's suddenly fine? After all, him not picking that relic would prevent me from getting it.

You're still making zero sense here.

Edited November 15, 2019 by zoffmode

[withinmyself]

Usually if someone isn't attacking their Lich, I will start killing it.  When it's ready for the mercy kill I will ask who's it is and if they know how this works.  If its someones first time doing this it is difficult to understand what the hell is happening.  That's how I felt and someone else helped me out and it was fine.   If nobody responds I'll down it a couple more times and see if anyone ever comes over.  If not I'll give up on it and finish the mission.

I've done 12 of these so far and haven't seen anyone 'bullying' anyone.  If anything I've seen pub squads communicating and working together better than any other game mode.  Of course this is only from my personal first hand experience.  I can't speak for everyone on this.

[Lost_Cartographer]

1 hour ago, Xaero said:

Or you know, DE could solve this problem by allowing multiple liches to spawn at the same time.

Better idea - don't rank the lich up or kill the player for attacking it without the right sequence of mods and come up with some other process.  Whatever is stopping people from engaging their lich is THE problem causing all this friction, not a symptom of a problem.

[RX-3DR]

Just now, zoffmode said:

  You're still making zero sense here.

Just an extension of the logic used to justify why people have to die to their Lich for your convenience. It's about an individual player's personal objective being demanded of other players where their actions can reduce the means to that personal objective. Much like demanding people to use relics that you don't own, him not doing impedes your progress or stops it if you don't have that specific relic. 

I could have killed my Lich an hour ago if everyone died to their Lich and I could have gotten Atlas Prime an hour ago if everyone used the Radiant Relic I needed are not too different. But for some reason, one claimed to be perfectly reasonable and objectively correct, while the other is scoffed at.

[Zekkii]

1 minute ago, RX-3DR said:

Just an extension of the logic used to justify why people have to die to their Lich for your convenience. It's about an individual player's personal objective being demanded of other players where their actions can reduce the means to that personal objective. Much like demanding people to use relics that you don't own, him not doing impedes your progress or stops it if you don't have that specific relic. 

I could have killed my Lich an hour ago if everyone died to their Lich and I could have gotten Atlas Prime an hour ago if everyone used the Radiant Relic I needed are not too different. But for some reason, one claimed to be perfectly reasonable and objectively correct, while the other is scoffed at.

You've really gone off the rails here mate. 

[z3us32610]

50 minutes ago, Ady88 said:

Let me guess, you probably don't even tell the rest of the team you are not interested in killing your Lich. Leaving them to continually down the Lich and wasting everyone's time in the process.

This is a good point, however could be said with a bit more diplomacy.

I play rev so I just delete their lich if they are ignoring it. But seeing as this is supposed to be a cooperative game, a little courtesy is all a lot of these players are asking. If a player doesn't want to stab their lich, no problem. A simple message in chat would be courteous.

Whenever a lich spawns, the squad usually converges on it. Recently, I have found myself checking to see what everyone is doing, to see if players are going to ignore the lich. It's kind of a bummer, because it's fun to team up and hammer on these guys.

I guess it's another reminder that keeping expectations really low in public groups is a good idea. While an overwhelming majority of the player base is cooperative, there is an element of the player base that have no issues playing extremely selfish.

[SordidDreams]

5 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

There's plenty of upsides. You can guess the Requiem and finish Lich faster (not even that low of a chance). You unlock more planets and better nodes. You get more affinity. You actually get to have more fun and challenging content (arguably some people don't want that I suppose). You get to see other people's Liches and help them as well. Have actual coop experience. Probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting but it's late.

I'm not convinced that guessing the requiems is faster than just farming murmurs. If you're one of the tiny number of playres who can do level 100 content just as quickly as level 50 content, then yes, I guess that would be faster, but again, that's only applicable to a tiny number of players. As for affinity, I thought this was supposed to be endgame content for people who have maxed out builds, so why would you care about affinity. Helping people and having a co-op experience is great, but it sounds like you want them to help you with what you want (stabbing a lich), rather than wanting to help them with what they want (farming murmurs without stabbing a lich).

[CodeUltimate]

I think the toxic person might be you op. You are basically griefing the mission by not killing your lich.

[z3us32610]

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

A new trending behaviour is lich hunters verbally mobbing, bullying and abusing other players in PUB missions in order to force them to attack their personal lich. Presumably in order to get a few more murmurs. This idiocy should be stopped, by any means necessary. 

• A lich is a  personal part of the game, and all should be free to do the missions exactly the way they want (without other players abusing them in chat).
• Playing a PUB mission with randoms inherently means that there is no agreed special way of doing the mission. Trying to force other random players to do it "your way" (do your bidding) is rude, bad manners, or worse. Anyone wanting a dedicated team can use the chat (or clan, or friends list) to form one. And if you really feel to need for a fellow Tenno to help you  out "in mission", you can ask nicely and politely.

I don't personally care that much about the nagging, to me it's just a way of saying "hey, I play this game and I am an idiot". But I've now several times seen lower MR players giving to this abuse, and this pisses me off. I also hate bullies, always have and always will.

At this point in time I would even support banning the bullies and abusers for 24h in order to cool them down. I know it is an extra hassle for DE to handle the reports, but it would be unfortunate if this behaviour was allowed to continue as it will presumably lead to "not so experienced" players getting turned off from the lich mechanic. And we've seen all this before, with bosses, events and with trid hunts, just to name a few examples.

I think the issue many are having stems from a fundamental aspect of Warframe: It's Cooperative. By ignoring their lich, the player is not cooperating. And if they don't feel comfortable fighting it yet, I can understand that. A simple message in chat would go a long way, in my opinion. 

There needs to be some common ground in this argument, because both "sides" points of view are valid. 

That said, harassing/bullying should never be tolerated. After all, we are talking about a video game.

[zoffmode]

Just now, RX-3DR said:

Just an extension of the logic used to justify why people have to die to their Lich for your convenience. It's about an individual player's personal objective being demanded of other players where their actions can reduce the means to that personal objective. Much like demanding people to use relics that you don't own, him not doing impedes your progress or stops it if you don't have that specific relic. 

I could have killed my Lich an hour ago if everyone died to their Lich and I could have gotten Atlas Prime an hour ago if everyone used the Radiant Relic I needed are not too different. But for some reason, one claimed to be perfectly reasonable and objectively correct, while the other is scoffed at.

I already told you that your comparsion doesn't work yet you insist on it. Here's an actual comparison then. I am talking to a wall right now.

Just now, SordidDreams said:

I'm not convinced that guessing the requiems is faster than just farming murmurs. If you're one of the tiny number of playres who can do level 100 content just as quickly as level 50 content, then yes, I guess that would be faster, but again, that's only applicable to a tiny number of players. As for affinity, I thought this was supposed to be endgame content for people who have maxed out builds, so why would you care about affinity. Helping people and having a co-op experience is great, but it sounds like you want them to help you with what you want (stabbing a lich), rather than wanting to help them with what they want (farming murmurs without stabbing a lich).

Please, you write as if you literally haven't played Warframe in last 2 years or you're deliberately being obtuse. I don't even know how to explain it. Why do you want affinity? Okay... Tiny number of players own Saryn? Huh. Oh yeah, snide remark at the end as well. Perfect. Good talk buddy.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, Graavarg said:

A new trending behaviour is lich hunters verbally mobbing, bullying and abusing other players in PUB missions in order to force them to attack their personal lich. Presumably in order to get a few more murmurs. This idiocy should be stopped, by any means necessary. 

• A lich is a  personal part of the game, and all should be free to do the missions exactly the way they want (without other players abusing them in chat).
• Playing a PUB mission with randoms inherently means that there is no agreed special way of doing the mission. Trying to force other random players to do it "your way" (do your bidding) is rude, bad manners, or worse. Anyone wanting a dedicated team can use the chat (or clan, or friends list) to form one. And if you really feel to need for a fellow Tenno to help you  out "in mission", you can ask nicely and politely.

I don't personally care that much about the nagging, to me it's just a way of saying "hey, I play this game and I am an idiot". But I've now several times seen lower MR players giving to this abuse, and this pisses me off. I also hate bullies, always have and always will.

At this point in time I would even support banning the bullies and abusers for 24h in order to cool them down. I know it is an extra hassle for DE to handle the reports, but it would be unfortunate if this behaviour was allowed to continue as it will presumably lead to "not so experienced" players getting turned off from the lich mechanic. And we've seen all this before, with bosses, events and with trid hunts, just to name a few examples.

Verbally abuse and Bullying is already a reportable offense.

Take screenshots when you see it and report it.