Umbral and Sacrificial mod sets need rework!

[divi_india]

In current scenario umbral builds are limited to some warframe and situations only because you need to put all the three mods together into one warframe irrespective of whether that warframe needs that particular buff or not. For example limbo has no use of Umbral Fibre because it has low base armour. On the other hand Umbral vitality and Umbral intensify are pretty useful but their effectiveness is reduced if Umbral fibre is not used which is giving away one mod slot.

Now this thing can be changed if Sacrificial mods are converted into Umbral mods. For balancing obviously Umbral mod set should stack upto only three times like it is now.

This change will give us more freedom when using Umbral mods. We would be able to use Umbral vitality, Umbral intensify and the hypothetical Umbral steel together without losing any bonus of the mod set.

And also buff Sacrificial pressure to lie somewhere between pressure point and primed pressure point.

Thank you, any discussion is welcome.

Edited December 20, 2019 by divi_india

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

steel just got a buff if your unaware

[Uhkretor]

That's not what he wants. He wants two distinct sets to be a single one.

Not only it isn't fair for those that are using both sets, by completely disregarding the sacrificial set mod completely (Yes, OP, your post was self-explanatory), the OP also doesn't want to feel the loss of using an incomplete set bonus by not using the complete Umbral Set.

 

@divi_india, your inability in understanding what "give and take" means is what made you ask for such a thing. I know why you don't want to lose the Umbral set advantage. That Ability Power bonus increase sure is interesting and enticing... But that's the entire point of a "Give and Take" system. Always be ready to sacrifice something to get what you want. In this case, if you want the full Umbral set bonus, you'll have to use those 3 mods specifically.

Fusing the Sacrificial and Umbral mods into the same Umbral set is only "viable" if these conditions are met:

- Umbral Set gets all 5 mods to complete the set.

- Sacrificial and Umbral set bonuses exist in their current entirety.

 

If none of these conditions are good enough for you, because you'll always be unable to use the full set according to the practical example you've used to explain your point of view, then you need to get your priorities straight and mod your stuff properly.

 

Edit:

Oh, and don't bother yourself saying that its unfair to have to use the whole set. That's the whole point if you want full benefits... Besides, what you're requesting is the epitome of unfairness, since you're disregarding the unfairness of your request towards everyone else in favor of own benefit.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Uhkretor

[Tiltskillet]

It would be nice if there was an Umbral Redirection for an alternate way to get the max set bonus.

Edit:  And, for that matter, some sort of crazy Sacrificial mod for pure status weapons.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Tiltskillet

[Andele3025]

TBH, changing sacrificial set from a bane/smite mod effect to partial void damage/instead of full reset, it resets 1 sentient resist or allow the weapon to apply status effects to sentients would probably work a lot smoother (same for paraceisis, rank ups giving partial status duration vs status immune enemies and final rankup bonus being the full reset thus truly the sentient slayer).

[divi_india]

13 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

steel just got a buff if your unaware

I am aware of that and it has nothing to do with this post!!?

13 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

That's not what he wants. He wants two distinct sets to be a single one.

Not only it isn't fair for those that are using both sets, by completely disregarding the sacrificial set mod completely (Yes, OP, your post was self-explanatory), the OP also doesn't want to feel the loss of using an incomplete set bonus by not using the complete Umbral Set.

 

@divi_india, your inability in understanding what "give and take" means is what made you ask for such a thing. I know why you don't want to lose the Umbral set advantage. That Ability Power bonus increase sure is interesting and enticing... But that's the entire point of a "Give and Take" system. Always be ready to sacrifice something to get what you want. In this case, if you want the full Umbral set bonus, you'll have to use those 3 mods specifically.

Fusing the Sacrificial and Umbral mods into the same Umbral set is only "viable" if these conditions are met:

- Umbral Set gets all 5 mods to complete the set.

- Sacrificial and Umbral set bonuses exist in their current entirety.

 

If none of these conditions are good enough for you, because you'll always be unable to use the full set according to the practical example you've used to explain your point of view, then you need to get your priorities straight and mod your stuff properly.

 

Edit:

Oh, and don't bother yourself saying that its unfair to have to use the whole set. That's the whole point if you want full benefits... Besides, what you're requesting is the epitome of unfairness, since you're disregarding the unfairness of your request towards everyone else in favor of own benefit.

I think I am unable to fully understand what you are saying. But I will like to clarify some points:

1. I fully understand give and take but in this case give is much more than take. Thats in my opinion not allowing us to fully utilise the potential of these mod sets. Umbral mod set is only applicable for some specific builds on some specific warframes. I think this change will add diversity to it.

2. On viability, for first point, in order to make umbral set not too OP, let it have only 3 mods to get complete bonus. Vitality, Fibre and Intensify remain as they are now. Pressure and Steel get a new level and higher bonus. Though their  base stats will need a change especially Sacrificial steel.

3. On second point of viability, obviously nothing will change for current Umbral set. But Sacrificial set builds will take a hit, though they will retain most of their stats.

4. This opens up the possibility of adding future Umbral mods giving much more freedom to players.

5. I may not be entirely correct but am open for corrections/suggestions.

Edit: I am not asking this for my own benefit. Everyone will benefit/suffer together if this happens. And I am not using Umbral sets on limbo if you think I do. It is just an idea on how Umbral mod can enter mainstream.

Edited December 21, 2019 by divi_india
Grammar

[(PSN)SrebX]

I think your entire viewpoint here is wrong
You're not "losing" stats by not using all 3 umbral mods, it's more like you're gaining stats if you use ALL 3.

On most of my build I use Umbral Vitality+Intensify .They provide really good stats when they're together and that's plenty, and I think it's worth the investment of 2~3 more formas for Frames you like and use frequently

On very very specific builds you get to go ever further than this, and use all 3 Umbrals so you can get even more out of them, and it's actually very smart buildcraft to reserve these stats only for very specific builds

[Tiltskillet]

I don't agree with the OP's solution, but I do agree with the premise that it would be nice if more builds were good fits for each of those sets.  The thing that most sticks out is that with only three mods, Umbra Fiber tilts the Umbral set toward frames with significant  armor.  It's an even more extreme issue with the Sacrificial set with only two mods, since one gives little benefit to status weapons and the other mod's inherent bonus is weak on its own.

In both cases I think this is more naturally addressed through adding new mods in each set, not by consolidating them.  Alternately, there could be completely new sets with similar power and theme, but biased toward different kinds of builds than the current ones.

[Uhkretor]

10 hours ago, divi_india said:

I am aware of that and it has nothing to do with this post!!?

I think I am unable to fully understand what you are saying. But I will like to clarify some points:

1. I fully understand give and take but in this case give is much more than take. Thats in my opinion not allowing us to fully utilise the potential of these mod sets. Umbral mod set is only applicable for some specific builds on some specific warframes. I think this change will add diversity to it.

2. On viability, for first point, in order to make umbral set not too OP, let it have only 3 mods to get complete bonus. Vitality, Fibre and Intensify remain as they are now. Pressure and Steel get a new level and higher bonus. Though their  base stats will need a change especially Sacrificial steel.

3. On second point of viability, obviously nothing will change for current Umbral set. But Sacrificial set builds will take a hit, though they will retain most of their stats.

4. This opens up the possibility of adding future Umbral mods giving much more freedom to players.

5. I may not be entirely correct but am open for corrections/suggestions.

Edit: I am not asking this for my own benefit. Everyone will benefit/suffer together if this happens. And I am not using Umbral sets on limbo if you think I do. It is just an idea on how Umbral mod can enter mainstream.

Just by equipping an Umbral mod, without having the full set, you're already gaining Tau Resistance stats, so there's never any loss relative to the respective base mods. The only exception is Intensify, which its Umbral version adds 44% instead of 30% of the normal Intensify. This point was actually mentioned by (PS4)SrebX, so I logged on to see the exact differences between those and the respective regular mod versions.

Also, equipping those Umbral mods is a choice that a player makes. The only reason why you want the Sacrifical Mods to affect the Umbral set, is simply because you don't want to equip the 3rd Umbral mod to get the full set effect.

No, the Umbral and Sacrificial Sets are fine as they currently are. Changing them would turn "optional" into "mandatory", which is something that DE Staff doesn't want. (Catchmoon, remember?) Umbral mods are supposed to give that "extra kick" over the respective non-Umbral mods, and a choice of use to be made if necessary.

"What about Sentients?" Umbral mods aren't mandatory. They help resist incoming Tau damage, which is the purpose of their use, but they aren't necessary to defeat Sentients. All you need is a gun, and your Operator. Anything else besides that is optional, in which the player chooses either to use or not to use.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Uhkretor

[SixDimensions]

OP, I think the point that you've identified applies to all mod sets.  Unfortunately it's also part of the entire design.  This is not unique to Umbral/Sacrificial sets.  The only difference here is that Umbral/Sacrificial give boosts to the mods individual stats as well, making the trade off more noticeable.  However you have to keep in mind that this sort of trade off has always been in the game.  Do you maximize your frame/weapon and sacrifice some stats for the good of others, potentially losing out another useful mod? Or do you optimize instead, relying on a combination that yields a better net worth?

By design the Umbral/Sacrificial sets are the epitome of that conundrum, even down to the polarity. Having an Umbral polarity on a frame/weapon imposes a build limit because only a handful of mods are applicable. And yet the gain is better.  All mods are not equally valuable to a frame/weapon and wanting a specific set to change just so it can be would defeat the purpose of their design.

Essentially you're asking for the ability to get a max set bonus without having to use a max set. This is no different than saying the Vigilante set should be able to have max set bonus with only 3 instead of 5.  There's no way to balance that benefit without severely hindering the individual performance of the mods

[divi_india]

Thank you everyone for participating☺️

Conclusions(please add if I missed any):

1. All of you oppose what I proposed.

2. Mod sets should not get full bonus without equipping all the mods.

3. In order to balance out the new combined mod set, individually each mod will have to nerfed, hence should be avoided because it severely affects current builds.

4. Future possibilities of adding new Umbral mods or Sacrificial mods is out of question.

5. Umbral and Sacrificial mod set is not meant for each build even though individual mods may be suitable.

[(PSN)SrebX]

8 hours ago, divi_india said:

Thank you everyone for participating☺️

Conclusions(please add if I missed any):

1. All of you oppose what I proposed.

2. Mod sets should not get full bonus without equipping all the mods.

3. In order to balance out the new combined mod set, individually each mod will have to nerfed, hence should be avoided because it severely affects current builds.

4. Future possibilities of adding new Umbral mods or Sacrificial mods is out of question.

5. Umbral and Sacrificial mod set is not meant for each build even though individual mods may be suitable.

1. Ummm. yep. hehe 

2. Yep.

3. Agreed.

4. Not at all. With the introduction of the Umbra Forma as a farmable item I'd actually love new a new Umbral mod with Duration or range or maybe even an Adaptaion mod, but yes, it will have to get rebalanced. Or maybe you can keep it as it is, since even with Forma umbral mods require more capacity than normal mods ... I can't tell on the top of my head, it'll have to be looked at

5. Correct.

[divi_india]

13 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

4. Not at all. With the introduction of the Umbra Forma as a farmable item I'd actually love new a new Umbral mod with Duration or range or maybe even an Adaptaion mod, but yes, it will have to get rebalanced. Or maybe you can keep it as it is, since even with Forma umbral mods require more capacity than normal mods ... I can't tell on the top of my head, it'll have to be looked at

But that would again contradict 2. If more mods are added then again we would need to add more buff levels in the existing mods.

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, divi_india said:

But that would again contradict 2. If more mods are added then again we would need to add more buff levels in the existing mods.

The set bonus could stay the same, just with a cap of three contributing mods.   For example, DE introduces a fourth Umbral mod, but Umbral Intensify still maxes out at 66% Strength and 16.5% Tau Resist (same as now) whether they use all four or just three.

 

[divi_india]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

The set bonus could stay the same, just with a cap of three contributing mods.   For example, DE introduces a fourth Umbral mod, but Umbral Intensify still maxes out at 66% Strength and 16.5% Tau Resist (same as now) whether they use all four or just three.

 

This exactly what I had said in the initial post which according to conclusion 1 you all have rejected.

[(PSN)SrebX]

5 hours ago, divi_india said:

But that would again contradict 2. If more mods are added then again we would need to add more buff levels in the existing mods.

 

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

The set bonus could stay the same, just with a cap of three contributing mods.   For example, DE introduces a fourth Umbral mod, but Umbral Intensify still maxes out at 66% Strength and 16.5% Tau Resist (same as now) whether they use all four or just three.

 

 

2 hours ago, divi_india said:

This exactly what I had said in the initial post which according to conclusion 1 you all have rejected.

Nono, keeping it capped at lvl 3 when you have more than 3 set mods is a not what I meant, which is why said that they would have to get rebalanced. what I meant was you'd have to get a 4th lvl and MAYBE reduce each lvl's jump and cap it at a higher place or something like that

Again, I'm just tossing ideas so you'd get the point, but obviously the whole thing would have to be rebalanced and thought through 

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, divi_india said:

This exactly what I had said in the initial post which according to conclusion 1 you all have rejected.

What I disagreed with was the conversion of Sacrificial mods to Umbral.

[divi_india]

What are your views about Sacrificial mod set.

I think that one of the mods has become too op due to recent buff giving +220% critical chance alone. Whereas Sacrificial pressure is only +110% damage. Primed pressure point has +165% melee damage.

Edited December 24, 2019 by divi_india

[(PSN)SrebX]

28 minutes ago, divi_india said:

What are your views about Sacrificial mod set.

I think that one of the mods has become too op due to recent buff giving +220% critical chance alone. Whereas Sacrificial pressure is only +110% damage. Primed pressure point has +165% meele damage.

My opinion is that it's stupid and useless.

Using just 1 of them is rather costly, so using 2 is really damn costly. But, for that cost, you don't get anything in return because Sacrificial Pressure is so damn weak and the bonus is so useless.
Sacrificial steel is really strong, I honestly can't tell if too strong or just the right amount, but I'd be down to nerfing it a bit in favor of Sacrificial Pressure getting a meaty buff + buff the Set bonus you get from them. I really think something that costly like using 2 of these mods should be pretty damn powerful

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, divi_india said:

What are your views about Sacrificial mod set.

I think that one of the mods has become too op due to recent buff giving +220% critical chance alone. Whereas Sacrificial pressure is only +110% damage. Primed pressure point has +165% meele damage.

SPressure is definitely undertuned on its own.  I'm not sure if SSteel is overtuned or not.  Really the  question for me isn't as much the straight crit chance as it is the heavy attack bonus.  And I haven't played enough with these to form an opinion.

But the key thing about the set that bothers me is that it does nothing for pure status weapons without just forcing them into shoddy crit builds.   I'm unsure  what an equivalent for status would look like,  but it'd be nice to have the option, whether it was an addition to the sac set or a new set with the same or similar bonus against sentients.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

OP is kinda right. A lot of sets have mods scattered across different "locations", warframe, primaries, secondaries, etc.  

He actually has a point, the Sacrificial/Umbral sets not being the same thing kinda gives the upper hand to all other set mods.

[(PSN)thegarada]

I do not think the request is out there. This issue is Umbra mods are meant to be expensive and difficult to use, as a trade-off to the power they provide. Is making the more accessible a good idea? 

[divi_india]

21 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

But the key thing about the set that bothers me is that it does nothing for pure status weapons without just forcing them into shoddy crit builds.

Not to forget the fact that these mods came with skiajati and exalted umbra blade both of them had much higher status chance than critical chance prior to recent melee rework.

And the addition of umbral forma bp in reward table clearly indicates that they want the use of these mods to increase but i wonder if thats gonna happen in current state of these mods

[divi_india]

42 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I do not think the request is out there. This issue is Umbra mods are meant to be expensive and difficult to use, as a trade-off to the power they provide. Is making the more accessible a good idea? 

I think this could be first request for their rework?

Edited December 24, 2019 by divi_india
Misunderstood the reply

[SixDimensions]

6 minutes ago, divi_india said:

I think this could be first request for their rework?

How can we make them more accessible?

More accessible in what regards? Not all mods are going to be useful with all frames.  Some clearly benefit more than others while some mods serve no purpose on other frames. Why stop with just these set mods? They're designed as they're supposed to be. A trade-off for increased stats.  I get the feeling your version of making them "more accessible" is to reap the reward without the sacrifice