DE messed with the formula with RNG Stats

[Adam-De-Locke]

You guys said it yourself that the way you set up your game is that the amount of power we have as players is be based on the amount of time and effort we put into the game. It's why you allowed for Room-Nuking Builds because despite them being powerful, they cost a lot of Forma and experimenting to get them to work. It's the guiding philosophy of reworks like Ash's Bladestorm and Mesa's Peacemakers that keep the game engaging and fun while not making these powers useless.

The rolled stats on Railjack stuff takes a massive dump on this philosophy because even if we bust our ass to find a Railjack part we want, there's no guarantee that all that work is gonna be reciprocated when stuff like MK 3 Reactors can be just as bad if not worse than the MK 3 Sigma Reactor. Please fix this, DE. Please.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Adam-De-Locke

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

What I want to know is why they removed RNG stats mods in the games earlier days because they recognized it was a bad idea, but then thought it was a good idea to bring them back when they’re presenting the same exact problems.

[RS219]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

What I want to know is why they removed RNG stats mods in the games earlier days because they recognized it was a bad idea, but then thought it was a good idea to bring them back when they’re presenting the same exact problems.

Hey! I remember you in my thread from a while back.

If you want to know, look no further to Rebecca's statement here under "The Loot & RNG":

Boils down to a whole load of "Pride & Accomplishment" and "Surprise Mechanics" if you ask me.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Sadly enough RNG stats aren't considered a bad thing anymore. Quite the nerve from people who mock other companies when they do the same (no, not necessarily microtransactions-wise). The time of the glorious company who fought against slot machine systems is long gone.

Expect the next big update to have something similar as well.

Edited January 4, 2020 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

16 minutes ago, RS219 said:

Hey! I remember you in my thread from a while back.

If you want to know, look no further to Rebecca's statement here under "The Loot & RNG":

Boils down to a whole load of "Pride & Accomplishment" and "Surprise Mechanics" if you ask me.

I for got how BS that post was “You don’t need to keep farming RNG loot to progress”. We absolutely f***ing do because mk1 guns are garbage and we can’t mod our ships without a reactor that has atleast like 80 capacity.

[RS219]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Sadly enough RNG stats aren't considered a bad thing anymore. Quite the nerve from people who mock other companies when they do the same (no, not necessarily microtransactions-wise). The time of the glorious company who fought against slot machine systems is long gone.

Expect the next big update to have something similar as well.

My predictions:

-Modular archwings with randomized stats.
-Future weapons come with RNG stat/damage ranges.
-Future warframes with RNG survivability stats and ability stats, whose chassis, neuroptics and systems blueprints also have further RNG baked into them to influence the final RNG of the Warframe's stats.
-Modular primary weapons whose components bear randomized stats so you need to keep making the same barrel/receiver/stock over and over if you get a bad roll.
-Apologists who'll come up with excuses such as "I like this system, it keeps us all from having the EXACT same warframes/weapons/etc." or literally can't comprehend that due to their cripplingly high levels of variance as well as being resource-gated THEN time-gated before finally becoming usable, RNG loot stats in Warframe is literally far worse executed than loot-shower games that literally SHOWER you in usable gear every 0.5 seconds, no build/wait requirements needed (Borderlands, Path of Exile). You never did get back to me on this btw, @DrakeWurrum.

12 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I for got how BS that post was “You don’t need to keep farming RNG loot to progress”. We absolutely f***ing do because mk1 guns are garbage and we can’t mod our ships without a reactor that has atleast like 80 capacity.

Ah yes, nothing quite like the game telling you to go f*ck yourself when you finally overcome the 2% Vidar Mk3 Reactor drop just for its RNG stats to be LOWER than a Sigma Mk3 reactor.

DE being on a 3 week vacation and the devs (except Scott) going all head-in-sand (Ostrich style) in regards to this certainly isn't helping.

Edited January 4, 2020 by RS219

[Traumtulpe]

Random stats don't have to be garbage.

Lich weapons, for example, have varying added elemental damage. This is fine, because the weapon is still for all intends and purposes the same weapon and serves the same function - despite a small difference in power.

Railjack weapons are similar, some are noticeably better because of the random stat being higher, but they are all functional.

Railjack reactors are different. Half your mod slots being empty because you didn't get lucky is garbage. Finally getting that essential rare item - but with worse stats than default stuff, making it useless - is garbage.

[RS219]

10 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

-small difference in power

HOW is a 25% "bonus" compared to a "god-tier" 60% elemental damage roll a "small difference in power", especially when you factor in element typing(i.e. a newbie not being aware of Warframe-determined elemental generation and accidentally rolling an inferior magnetic/impact type)? It's also worse when you consider that several kuva weapons have their base IPS severely reduced in comparison to the conventional versions, and NEED a high RNG roll just to keep up or break even (Kuva Brakk and Kuva Kohm needing 50%+ for example)

10 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Railjack weapons are similar, some are noticeably better because of the random stat being higher, but they are all functional.

Also disagree to a lesser extent. Most Zetki weapons with the exception of Photors come with a fire rate bonus. As Zetki weapons already gain heat way faster compared to Lavans and Vidars for each single shot (we're talking 400 heat for cryophons, and 4x for the other turrets), this means a faster fire rate has the higher chance to cripple your heatsinks with only a split second of shooting.

At least we agree on the reactor stats.

Edited January 4, 2020 by RS219

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, RS219 said:

not being aware of Warframe-determined elemental generation and accidentally rolling an inferior magnetic/impact type [...] this means a faster fire rate has the higher chance to cripple your heatsinks with only a split second of shooting

Neither has anything to do with the randomness of a stat. The first is a lack of information being given in the game, the second is simply the fact that Zetki weapons are the common filler drops. The rare Vidar weapons are better (in most cases).

By the way, there is a tactical Avionic that disables heat buildup for a duration.  There is really no point using it at the moment, but in future Railjack content some heavy Zetki burst damage might be viable.

[DrakeWurrum]

45 minutes ago, RS219 said:

You never did get back to me on this btw, @DrakeWurrum.

Because quite frankly, my dear, I just don't give a damn. And you're just not worth my time. Besides, other people have touched on this just fine, in ways that can be summed up as follows:

29 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Random stats don't have to be garbage.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by DrakeWurrum

[Katinka]

2 hours ago, RS219 said:

HOW is a 25% "bonus" compared to a "god-tier" 60% elemental damage roll a "small difference in power"?

Once you factor in Elemental mods in the weapon's build it might only make a difference of 9-11% to the total damage.  Even a build with just 90% elemental damage from mods will only have 16% more total damage on a 60% kuva weapon than a 25% kuva weapon.  Just because people call the highest roll "god-tier" doesn't mean it's actually that much better.  Looks like I was wrong about Kuva weapon damage calculation.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Katinka

[Traumtulpe]

35 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Once you factor in Elemental mods in the weapon's build it might only make a difference of 9-11% to the total damage.

Are you actually sure that the bonus is equal to elemental mods - ergo not base damage?

I just checked a Kuva weapon in the arsenal - the elemental damage is indeed treated as base damage. So you were wrong.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Traumtulpe

[Katinka]

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Are you actually sure that the bonus is equal to elemental mods - ergo not base damage?

Actually, looking at my Kuva weapons, I might have been completely wrong.  I had assumed it would just be a percentage of the base stats added to the other elementals but it looks like it might actually increase the base damage value.  Which would make it similar to only having a rank 8 or 9 Serration instead of 10. 

What has me most curious now though is that the physical stats on my Kuva weapons are all lower than what the codex says, for example my Drakgoon has 45.7 Impact instead of 46.

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Which would make it similar to only having a rank 8 or 9 Serration instead of 10.

No, that is also wrong. The entire damage (including elemental) is just regular base damage. Multiplied by mods as usual.

[Adam-De-Locke]

7 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Random stats don't have to be garbage.

Lich weapons, for example, have varying added elemental damage.

That's not Random Stats, my dude. That's random bonuses.

The difference is one is Anthem and the other is Borderlands.

[RS219]

8 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Because quite frankly, my dear, I just don't give a damn. And you're just not worth my time. Besides, other people have touched on this just fine, in ways that can be summed up as follows:

What a cute way to admit you don't have a counterargument, while simultaneously  demonstrating you still care enough to reply. Applause, applause. 

When RNG stat variation starts to creep into more and more items gets worse I'll be sure to remember your brand of justification.

After all, it's better to touch a burning stove than to be branded with a red-hot iron, no? 

[RS219]

7 hours ago, Katinka said:

Once you factor in Elemental mods in the weapon's build it might only make a difference of 9-11% to the total damage.  Even a build with just 90% elemental damage from mods will only have 16% more total damage on a 60% kuva weapon than a 25% kuva weapon.  Just because people call the highest roll "god-tier" doesn't mean it's actually that much better.  Looks like I was wrong about Kuva weapon damage calculation.

Yep, you are. The base damage of IPS is lowered by a certain percentage (30 to 50%, it varies) compared to the original weapon. The elemental damage bonus is a % of this nerfed base damage. 

It's not a conversion of physical to elemental. That would have been an interesting and far less aggravating factor if it was, and "bigger number better" wouldn't be an issue in this case.

9 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Neither has anything to do with the randomness of a stat. The first is a lack of information being given in the game, the second is simply the fact that Zetki weapons are the common filler drops. The rare Vidar weapons are better (in most cases).

By the way, there is a tactical Avionic that disables heat buildup for a duration.  There is really no point using it at the moment, but in future Railjack content some heavy Zetki burst damage might be viable.

Oh, true, but lack of knowledge in and of itself makes things a sh!tshow of prediction/uncertainty. And it's not about zetki turrets being filler drops, but rather that their bonuses are always fire rate (with the exception of photors). Lavan, too. Vidar turrets can be relied upon to always be +damage, which coupled with their significantly lower heat buildups gives them more sustainable bang for their buck.

And eh, whoever who's stuck on a Sigma Mk3 reactor has space in their ships for that kind of luxury?

Edited January 5, 2020 by RS219

[Traumtulpe]

7 hours ago, Adam-De-Locke said:

That's not Random Stats, my dude. That's random bonuses.

And that, my friend, is semantics.

[grindbert]

On 2020-01-04 at 8:57 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Random stats don't have to be garbage.

Lich weapons, for example, have varying added elemental damage. This is fine,

yes, they do and no it's not fine.

[Traumtulpe]

On 2020-01-06 at 4:52 AM, grindbert said:

yes, they do and no it's not fine.

I am not enjoying it either. Finally got a Kuva Twin Stubba after almost 30 liches - with 28% damage. Really not looking forward to another 30 liches, only to get one with 25% damage.

But at least I got the weapon I wanted, and it works. When you get a Vidar reactor with <50 avionics, it's the same as getting nothing at all.

[kapn655321]

I think I have a way to give us agency back over RNG, without breaking it's intent.

Each time we roll a reward pool, each item in that pool increases +0.5% until it drops.
Once it drops, that reward sets back to normal.

If something is a 2% drop chance, the next time it's 2.5%.
The longer you run for it, the Less futile it becomes, though there's always a chance it drops sooner.

This reduces the chance we get the same reward over and over..
and if we do, it's less likely to happen each time.

Edited January 7, 2020 by kapn655321

[Wakata]

It was only a matter of time when the items with random stats will be introduced in the game.

Why would DE wants to do that? Some of the people call Warframe a looter shooter, but I never knew why coz there is no real looting in the game.

I am not like "oh 500 polymer bundle instead of 250, what a drop!". Collecting resources does not trigger that sweet spot in the brain that goes coconuts when a legendary item drops from a random enemy.

 

Relics do not count, not because I am stubborn, but because fissures are too a controlled environment. You just make squad with 4x Radiant and you are nearly guaranteed to get your stuff in 2 runs if not a 1st run (yea yea i know you could be unlucky like you got only two relics and range is not on your side, but that's the point, don't have only 2 relics, you are in control). I could argue that "looting feeling" is presented when you are doing random fissures with random relics and suddenly something great drops from an opened relic, but that's still too little to call warframe a "looter-shooter".

 

And many people liked the fact that Warframe is NOT a looter, in classic sense. That it's about gradual farming and collecting, till the work is done and guaranteed reward is given.

BUT that could be interesting only so far, so yap now we got real loot to hunt...

 

In the case of kuva weapons, i am all for it. The weapons are still great, no matter how big the elemental bonus on them. There is no content in the game gated by the fact that you NEED the kuva weapons with maximum stats. Thanks to the fact, that from some point, there is no real progression based on your "rpg" stats in Warframe, those numbers are nearly as important as cosmetics. If you are triggered by the fact that you don't have 60% kuva weapon but lower than I might say "well your fight and god help your poor soul" BUT, there is a thing about all that stuff that I think DE is doing objectively wrong

 

OK so we got a new game mode in the game and suddenly, there is much more stuff with random stats in the game and looting can start. Yet if you wanna do a looting game THE LOOT MUST FLOW. The rare stuff could be rare, that's not a problem. Vidar reactors with 100 avionics capacity could have 0,25 % chance to drop and it should be a pain to get it, but before I will get my hands on that thing, I should get 3 or 4 vidar reactor drops with 65, 70, 80 per game session, or day or whatever (in terms of warframe, its still not PoE or diablo2). If the loot flows then you are less frustrated that the perfect roll is not there, because you can gradually progress thanks to the abundance of loot with still got better stats than what you got now.

 

In that context, why am I ok with kuva weapons state but not the railjack drops?

The kuva weapons like a whole are just a bonus side activity for veterans, but in railjack, we should have new content through which we are progressing. And there is not much content there for now. The only thing we can do, with we are progressing right now, is upgrading our Railjack. And unlike kuva weapons, there is a huge performance difference between railjack with 30-50 avionics capacity and railjack with 80-100 avionics capacity. I am not believing that in future, we will have content gated behind the possession of 60% kuva weapons, otherwise, I would be hating here with others about them, but I have a strong hunch, that we will have content for with we will need a strong railjack and if nothing will change, that content will be gated behind badly designed loot drop chances.

 

Amen

[Skaleek]

The random stats on turrets don't bug me. The power variance is quite low, this is acceptable RNG to me. The power variance on reactors, however, is far too huge to let RNG be a factor.

[(PSN)PePSchaepp]

Transform RJ components into the equivalent of weapons in the rest of the game. We can level them, we can forma them and we can stuff them with mods that we need to spend lots of Dirac on. That has always created the perception of uniqueness for any weapon as it should for any reactor, shield generator or set of engines. Seriously!

You have done so much better in the past than all stats random RNG garbage. This is Warframe. A game that can pride itself with intricate progression systems, always feeling rewarding to achieve that level up of gear. How else do you explain Hydron. Someone always leveling something up there, Always! Instead of piling up tons of useless crap generic reactors, shields, and engines that make lootdrops feel so generic and useless. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by (PS4)PePSchaepp

[Adam-De-Locke]

On 2020-01-05 at 4:17 AM, Traumtulpe said:

And that, my friend, is semantics.

No, it isn't.

Randomized Stats are "You can get something that's worst than the starting item." i.e. Vidar MK3 Reactor - the Reactor everyone's trying to get - can have worst stats than the Sigma MK3.

Randomized Bonuses are "You can get the same item multiple times and although all have different stats, they're all better than the starting item." i.e. Kuva Weapon Variants all have the same stats but can have different elemental bonuses meaning despite you getting 3 Kuva Krakens, they're all still better than the normal Kraken.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Adam-De-Locke