RE: Eidolon & Questions

[Quistris]

So, a brief history here.

I'm not super 'up' on the whole Eidolon thing. I've mostly been doing them with a clanmate of late because they're kinda into it, and I need the Quills' Rep. But, I can't resist rising to a challenge. So, I figured I'd ask a few questions, get some advice.

For the record: we're able to successfully 2-man down the first two Eidolons with only mild difficulty, but it's the lack of knowing some of the advanced mechanics that's holding us back a bit.

Before going on, the usual disclaimers:

• I am NOT looking for 'the meta' answers, that is not what I am asking
• I am NOT looking for an exact build, that is not what I am asking
• I am NOT looking to be told which Warframes are viable, that is not what I am asking
• I am NOT looking to form a group or do 3x3s, or 4x3s, or whatever; that is not what I am asking

With that said, I'm hoping some kind soul will explain a few cans worth of worms for me. So, in no particular order:

• A lot of recommendations for tackling Eidolons one-on-one (or with a small group) suggest using Shattering Impact to remove Eidolon Armour to boost Damage. Is that a thing?
• I've flipped-flopped a lot back and forth between Archguns and Sniper Rifles, and I've had a really hard time deciding what's more effective. I usually mod for Radiation, but there's often an IPS compoenent (been using the Rubico Prime and the Imperator (if I'm spelling that right) Vandal, respectively.Would something purely elemental be better?
• I've also tried playing around with the Euphona Prime, which has had some success. None of them seems to fully 'work' with my playstyle on the Plains, though. Are there any other weapons or weapon types that stand up well to the Eidolons?
• The vomvalyst swarm has been a continual thorn in our sides. I've seen people basically nuke down Eidolons immediately. Is this entirely due to (I think) Madurai? I don't think I've put a lot into that school, but I almost chose it as my starter over Zenurik, and with that finished I'm looking for a second one to seriously start chewing at.
• A lot of recommendations make a very big deal over the need to heal the lures. Is this absolutely critical?
  • If so, what can heal them? I know Trinity and Oberon can, but anything else?
• So far, it seems like the best thing to actually take down Eidolons are 'anti-tank' weapons: high damage, high crit chance, fast firing weapons that ignore status. Is that accurate?
• Does the Eidolon have a 'head'? In a mechanical sense, I mean. Can it be headshot for sniper bonuses?
• So, despite having run in public groups a few times before, I have never fully understood why 'the meta' is what it is, beyond the fact that Chroma boosts ally damage and you can fire through Volt's shield to add electric damage. But isn't electric less effective against the Eidolon's armour? Is there something useful here I'm missing? A few suggestions for small group have focused on Volt.
• Everyone seems to recommend a... Shwarksun? I think? Brace. I have never built an amp using that one (I never had an interest in it). How does it work, and why is it so much better?
  • If you want to talk in depth about amps, please keep in mind, I have never, ever gotten a hang of the Amp numbering/Lettering system. Please use the names or reference what they do. I do want to understand, but that entire classification system genuinely seems to escape me.
• Our current model has been one of us tries to nuke down the Eidolon (once all shields are gone) and the other one holds off the swarm. Is this actually a good idea, or is it a better one for both of us to try and dump damage on them?

To anyone who address any of these, thank you. I'll try to reply with more information and reactions as needed!

Edit: Edited the name & opening because it overflowed the original reason for posting this.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Winter_One

[Gibsonx]

A few answers. Not all.
 

I haven’t done much eidelon a since they fixed the bug that essentially multiplied rad damage output by 10. I do not know if that patch (months ago) also patched the sarpa and shattering impact. However you didn’t want to remove all armor as that removes the weakness to radiation damage (it is the armor that is weak to it not the flesh). 
 

generally you have a frame that can boost their own damage and a frame to either boost the shooter’s damage or keep the lures alive.
There is a node in the Madurai school that boosts damage of the next 8 hits, depending on how long you stayed cloaked in operator mode (sneaking). Most groups also have the damage dealer run unaru for the wisp skill in that school which is a damage buff for next shot. Volt shield also buffs amp damage. that is the interaction that allows for one hit shields down.
 

so once the buff/healer has downed the shields they should be cloaked to charge for next shot, (after dumping unused charges, to make sure you have enough for next round) however Madurai also has a skill that leaves fire behind them when dashing. It is quite effective on keeping the voms down. 

[taiiat]

• yes, Shattering Impact is a good idea. i even see the route of 3 Corrosive Projecions + Coaction Drifts as wasting potential Damage vs one Player just weakening the Armor with Shattering Impact which doesn't take an Aura Slot.
  technically its superfluous as either way you'd be oneshotting Phases, but i digress.
  • to be clear note that i've said weaken, not remove.
• technically pure Elemental that you can convert into Radiation is ideal, yes. it doesn't mean IPS Weapons can't be good too though.
• consider some of these Weapons for Eidolon Hunting.

On 2020-01-11 at 9:04 PM, taiiat said:

i don't know what sort of sorting you want to do, but, in no particular order, Weapons to possibly consider aka good/viable choices for Eidolon Hunting:

• all of the Sniper Rifles, obviously.
• Paris Prime
• Kuva Chakkhurr
• Ferrox
• Attica
• Prisma Grinlok
• Buzlok
• Euphona Prime
• Ballistica Prime
• Knell
• Catchmoon (sorta)
• Vaykor Hek (sorta)
• Corinth(sorta)
• Tombfinger

this is not all potentially viable Weapons, just most of them.
i don't recommend using Weapons that have a contact Explosion, as with Eidolons the contact Explosion tends to prevent the direct impact from hitting, and as such making the Weapon often deal far less Damage than it is supposed to.

 

• choices for Focus based Damage for the Shield Phase is either Madurai or Unairu, yes.
  Void Strike can also help for the Health Phase too, while Unairu Wisp is just Shields.
• anything that Heals can Heal Lures. well i'm not sure if Pizzas work on them but they're treated as an Ally so if it Heals Allies, it should work. they have a lot of Health compared to Players though, so non Percentage based Healing can really struggle to outpace the Damage they may take.
• more Spike Damage sort of Weapons is generally preferable for Eidolon Hunting, most definitely. you don't need to go totally bankrupt on Fire Rate and all into Damage per Shot, but your Weapon definitely wants to lean towards Damage per Shot over Fire Rate and have good Crit Stats.
• Eidolons do have a Head, it is exactly where you think it is.
• the only real 'meta' for Eidolon Hunting is Electric Shield, everything else is interchangable as you please. Electric Shield adds 50% Electric Damage yes, but is also doubles Crit Damage. not +100%, double.
  • the Electricity Bonus from Electric Shield is also useful for base Elemental Weapons as base Elemental Weapons will auto combine that Electricity into more Radiation. however base IPS Weapons will not. this also means that stacking Shields is only slightly useful for IPS Weapons while it is awesome for base Elemental Weapons.
• generally the Multiplayer strategy for the Eidolon itself is Players take turns, someone takes care of the Shield Phase, and someone else the Health Phase, and cycle that.

 

Amps:

there are two Scaffolds that are of strong note. Shraksun ( Piercing Flak Grenade), and Propa (Proximity Detonate Timed Bomb).
these two fill the two opposite ends of the spectrum. Shraksun is maximum average Damage per Shot, while Propa instead aims for Damage per Energy Bar.

i'm not sure what other details about them you're looking for, so i'll just go with a quick description.
- Shraksun has a hilariously short Range, but if you use it right you can get 4 hits per Shot. the main Projectile has infinite Piercing, and then it Explodes after traveling 10 Meters. so you want it to travel through the Eidolon and then also Explode inside of it, to get your maximum hits per Shot. this does mean you have to stand very close to it.
- Propa is a big AoE. note that the Eidolon will not trigger the Proximity Detonation. however it will detonate on contact with Terrain, so you can use that instead if you want it to Detonate immediately instead of after the Timer.

Edited January 14, 2020 by taiiat

[Gibsonx]

Oh and if you both use corrosive projection and one has coation drift that should do the same thing as the shattering impact. Or you might both need coaction. Not sure if the math for 4 group, let alone 2. 

[Drachnyn]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Winter_One:

A lot of recommendations for tackling Eidolons one-on-one (or with a small group) suggest using Shattering Impact to remove Eidolon Armour to boost Damage. Is that a thing?

Both Shattering Impact and Corrosive projection work on the eidolons. Many people usually try to only strip most armor and not all because radiation damage provides a large damage boost against alloy armored targets, while the eidolons health type doesnt have high enough weaknesses against anything. The reason it gets recommened for small groups is because you can leave the eidolons with only a tiny bit of their armor remaining, where as with two people using CP you'd still have 40% of their armor left.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Winter_One:

I've flipped-flopped a lot back and forth between Archguns and Sniper Rifles, and I've had a really hard time deciding what's more effective. I usually mod for Radiation, but there's often an IPS compoenent (been using the Rubico Prime and the Imperator (if I'm spelling that right) Vandal, respectively.Would something purely elemental be better?

If the weapon is pure elec or pure heat that's an advantage over weapons with IPS components as radiation is the go-to element. Lanka is the main example there, its pure elec base damage is very useful against the eidolon but the weapon has other drawbacks. Puncture is the best of the IPS types because it has a bonus against both armor and health type.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Winter_One:

I've also tried playing around with the Euphona Prime, which has had some success. None of them seems to fully 'work' with my playstyle on the Plains, though. Are there any other weapons or weapon types that stand up well to the Eidolons?

With the recent melee changes a heavy attack redeemer prime works very well. Snipers are favored because they can stack up a combo multiplier, even when shot against the eidolon shields without doing damage. Generally you just want high crit, high base damage weapons that dont rely on AoE.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Winter_One:

A lot of recommendations make a very big deal over the need to heal the lures. Is this absolutely critical?

• If so, what can heal them? I know Trinity and Oberon can, but anything else?

 

It can be done without but if you arent running a full meta lineup and one shot every phase it is highly recommend bringing a bless trinity. If neither of you wants to play either oberon or trinity then you could help yourself with ancient healer specters. Technically sancti magistar could heal them but i doubt that it's very practical. Another option is to use gara to put her 2 on the lures but that is also less practical than trinity. There are some attacks that you have to pull the lures out of if you want to keep them alive without trinity.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Winter_One:

Does the Eidolon have a 'head'? In a mechanical sense, I mean. Can it be headshot for sniper bonuses?

It does have a head but it doesnt have a special damage multiplier on it. You can proc things that trigger on headshot. Basically the thing you are using needs to bring a bonus against the head, the eidolon doesnt provide anything on its own.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Winter_One:

So, despite having run in public groups a few times before, I have never fully understood why 'the meta' is what it is, beyond the fact that Chroma boosts ally damage and you can fire through Volt's shield to add electric damage. But isn't electric less effective against the Eidolon's armour? Is there something useful here I'm missing? A few suggestions for small group have focused on Volt.

Volt's electric damage gets combined into your radiation damage, think of his elec damage as an additional elemental mod. The main reason people use volt is because he is the only frame that can buff the operator's damage output. This is because his shield not only adds elec damage but also increases the crit damage of every shot passing through it, which also affects shots from amps.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Winter_One:

Everyone seems to recommend a... Shwarksun? I think? Brace. I have never built an amp using that one (I never had an interest in it). How does it work, and why is it so much better?

• If you want to talk in depth about amps, please keep in mind, I have never, ever gotten a hang of the Amp numbering/Lettering system. Please use the names or reference what they do. I do want to understand, but that entire classification system genuinely seems to escape me.

 

Shraksun scaffold is a single shot with high crit stats, this is favored by madurai's void strike as you only get a set number of void strike charges (8) before you have to charge up a new set of charges. IIRC it's best used shooting up an eidolon leg. The best brace is the certus brace because it adds the most crit chance. For getting started i would build the very first amp you have access to because every combination of parts is worlds better than the mote amp.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Winter_One:

Our current model has been one of us tries to nuke down the Eidolon (once all shields are gone) and the other one holds off the swarm. Is this actually a good idea, or is it a better one for both of us to try and dump damage on them?

Voms keep spawning anyway so it's better for you both to focus on the eidolon. Trying the cull the voms in the last phase is pretty much futile if you cant do it fast with something like the shwaak prism.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Drachnyn

[SpicyDinosaur]

So you don't want meta, or builds, or warframe suggestions. What exactly do you want? That rules out even the above posts. 

 

If you don't want to do it efficiently, then just keep on keeping on.

[--K--Sharkfin]

2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

So you don't want meta, or builds, or warframe suggestions. What exactly do you want?

I believe OP wants to understand how things work instead of following meta like a sheep

[--K--Sharkfin]

9 hours ago, Winter_One said:

A lot of recommendations for tackling Eidolons one-on-one (or with a small group) suggest using Shattering Impact to remove Eidolon Armour to boost Damage. Is that a thing?

The reason behind using Shattering Impact solo because the 2 mods have different calculation and effect on enemy armor. Simply put:
- Shattering Impact reduces Base armor value by 6 for every hit landed. All 3 eidolons have 200 base armor.
- CP reduces Net armor, e.g. 1,107 for Terry.
For solo -34.5%(1CP+1CD) in the case of Terry, the net armor = 1,107x(1-0.345) = 725.085.  It becomes 70.73% dmg reduction compared to original 78.69%, which is only ~8% less dmg reduction. With Shattering Impact, hitting 33 times will reduce the base armor to 2 ( hitting 1 more time will strip all armor ), net armor becomes 2 × ( 1 + ( 50 − 1 )^1.75 / 200 ) = 11.07,  exactly equals to -99% net armor with 3CP+2CD. This is why Shattering Impact is more effective on solo/duo but useless with a full squad. 
SI Pro:
- is permanent
- can achieve -99% armor without the help of CP/CD
- save up aura slot for mods that buff weapon damage
SI Con:
- requires player to actively strip armor
- a slight mistake might strip all armor permanently rendering no bonus on coming radiation attacks. (this is mainly the reason why a squad prefer 3CP+2CD over additional weapon buff aura, as no mistake would happen to the element weakness)

Bug with SI:
Sometimes only host would see the "red HP bar" after stripping all armor. If you are testing SI as a client, expect the occurrence of HP bar staying yellow even after you stripped all armor.

 

9 hours ago, Winter_One said:

A lot of recommendations make a very big deal over the need to heal the lures. Is this absolutely critical?

• If so, what can heal them? I know Trinity and Oberon can, but anything else?

Yes it is. It is not necessary in Terry, but essential at Garry/Harry when they rain down vertical lasers. Those lasers could blow lures up in 5seconds without healing/buff. If one of the lures go boom suddenly while capturing a eidolon, you would end up with much less valuable rewards.  It would also be a waste of time capturing new lures and charging them.
Many things that heal/buff warframes also affect lures, but they are much less effective or clumsy, including but not limited to:
- Ancient Healer Specter from New Loka ( stupid AI and short range, can be pushed away by stomp )
- Unairu's Void Shadow + Void Chrysalis ( lock you in void mode and no healing )
- Sancti Magistar Charge Attacks (requires hitting vomvalyst)
- Frost's Avalanche Augment (no healing, requires hitting vomvalyst)
- Limbo's Banish augment (have healing but with 25% only and no dmg reduction)
- Nezha's Warding Halo Augment (only dmg reduction, no healing)

Healing pads do not affect lures
If you refrain from using trinity/ oberon for whatever reason, I suggest you to just bring the lures out of range when the laser rains down.

Edited January 14, 2020 by SHArK-FiN

[Quistris]

Thank you all for your replies. They're (mostly,) extremely helpful, and thorough enough that they left me with almost no followups. I'd need to play around with them before I really have more to add.

Because some advice got repeated, a lot of it I'll try to address in more general fashion. First up a question I got asked:

5 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

So you don't want meta, or builds, or warframe suggestions. What exactly do you want? That rules out even the above posts. 

 

If you don't want to do it efficiently, then just keep on keeping on.

3 hours ago, SHArK-FiN said:

I believe OP wants to understand how things work instead of following meta like a sheep

I pasted the whole thing because SHArK-FiN answered this perfectly. It does not rule out the above posts, except perhaps on the most rules-lawyer-ing sort of grounds. I'm here for information and understanding, not a regurgitated solution. In short, what exactly I want is the how and why such things function, not the what. Of course I want to do it more efficiently. 'tis the point of the entire post. I want to understand what makes things efficient or worthwhile, not just a 'here, do X', but a 'this is why things like X work'. That's something that all resources I've checked so far are sort of lacking in. I don't want to know the metagame, I want to know the root sources that made the metagame what it is.

Thank you very much for the explanations on what sort of weapons work, and why. Gives me a lot of ideas of things to play around with, as well as the explanations of what's up with the whole Shraksun thing that everyone keeps banging on about.

The explanation of the exact mechanics behind Volt's Shield were also very welcome, as although I've used Volt a lot, my understanding of exactly how the shield plays with different weapons (and especially the difference in how it hands IPS and pure elemental weapons!) as well as the fact that it's a flat doubling of Crit damage. I'll have to look into exactly how Power Strength plays with that, but it sounds like that might be more valuable for what we're trying to do. We may be able to go without, I'm not sure, but it's really nice to know that it's a good, strong option.

Special thanks goes to the breakdown of exactly how Shattering Impact works and the differences between that and Corrosive Projection, and the concepts of Base Armour versus Net Armour; all things I never really knew or grasped properly before. That actually has a lot of implications for me beyond just doing that.

Cheers, good people. I will let you know results and outcomes after I've had some time to tinker.

[-TSA-warramssie]

especially in your case, a 2-man team rite ? an augmented Volt Shocktrooper and a carpet Oberon with Smite infusion would be the perfect 2 man team to pair up against the 3 Eidolons.

You buff him he buffs you, in fact both buff themselves too, so there is no need for additional damage or damage auras like Dead Eye, you will have plenty of it . 2 CP plus 2CD is more than enough. Dont use a melee weapon as you wont accidentally waste some of your stacked up void charges. ( All melee attacks trigger a VS charge and it happens more often than you think, based solely on reflex and muscle memory).  Thats why Shattering Impact is bad on Madurai VS users. ( You cant have it both ways). Use ciphers on the lures to gain some time.

granted it will take you longer, but both on Madurai VS and I dont see any problems if you have some common game sense and are familiar with operator mechanics and their arcanes.

Recommended sentinel for now : a tanky Prisma Shade with 4 Vigilante mods and Vigilante Pursuit, somewhere in your frame loadout. Rage or Hunter Adrenaline works extremely well on both frames, give the volt at least 1 arcane guardian. If you can manage without Magus Vigor or Magus Repair on your Operator loadouts all the better, if not use 1 of them and Magus lockdown. If u feel like you dont need magus lockdown, fell free to chose what you deem worthy.

[vegetosayajin]

I've done my first 10 or so in a two man team with a friend.
The best combo was chroma and trinity, because we weren't so sure what to do exactly and wanted to be safe(chroma for the damage, trin for the lures).
He was sarpa(shattering impact, I think 4 shots to not strip the whole armour) and I think at first with the Vectis Prime he got from the last twitch prime promo.
I was with a rivened lanka.Both with rad.
When we did a couple it became more easy, also we could build better amps after the 111 to deal with vomvalyst. Magus lockdown is a great choice too in combo with a good amp.
After the battle itself became about bringing the right focus school and slight better understanding what and where.

I suggest the same combo to know the battle to the point - chroma, trin, rubico prime if you have it with rad+cold for the best damage.
After you know the battle you can take volt instead of chroma, he is way better for shild and limbs/head dps...for all the things actually.

[(PSN)Pumba_Beneator]

Interesting questions and answers.

i've been doing tridolons for quite a while now, most of the time with randoms. I just love this fight. I'm trying to have a load out that's independent from whatever other people bring.

My load out has converged to Trinity + Rubico w/ riven +CC +CD +Elec, sarpa with shattering impact, 427 amp, magus vigor and replenish for the operator, virtuos strike for the amp, and focus madurai for void strike.

I do not consider myself good at the thing, I can do a trio solo but usually not much more in the night.

My questions are basically :

- Rubico riven disposition has been going down steadily down to one now, I have to empty a full clip plus some more bullets to get one limb (granted, I miss quite a lot...). Wasn't the case before. This is Trinity so no damage buff (solo), but still... In the list of other candidate weapons that were put up there, did you guys actually try any ? What are your thoughts ? I hear the Chakkhur is good.

- I'd like to try something new 🙂  Have you guys tried Limbo ? I've tried Volt, the damage output is just excellent, but I loose lures in the Gantu and Hydro phases. I've tried Vazarin to heal them (void dash), Unairu for the damage reduction (void mode) and the wisp (hard to use I think), but not quite convinced they're easy enough to substitute from Trinity blessing. Well - have you guys tried something fun different than the meta, but still reasonnably efficient ?

[Quistris]

Finally, finally back to this, My apologies for it taking so long.

I both my friend and I have different work/sleep schedules, so synching up is sometimes an issue; and then I was sick enough that playing Warframe was a challenge for a bit, and THEN Plague Star came out and dat Forma called to us. And THEN I got assigned a bunch of new projects at work...

But we've finally started playing around with this whole thing again. You know, before Baro showed up with Prime-#*!%ing-Chamber and suddenly the farm began. But, here are the basic notes and the answer to a few questions that got asked at me, in no particular order:

Two from @(PS4)Pumba_Beneator

On 2020-01-18 at 5:30 AM, (PS4)Pumba_Beneator said:

Rubico riven disposition has been going down steadily down to one now, I have to empty a full clip plus some more bullets to get one limb (granted, I miss quite a lot...). Wasn't the case before. This is Trinity so no damage buff (solo), but still... In the list of other candidate weapons that were put up there, did you guys actually try any ? What are your thoughts ? I hear the Chakkhur is good.

So, we've tried a lot of weapons at this point. I never had a Rubico riven, but I had a Euphona Prime one, so I used a Rubico and that. They do have a Rubico riven, but they struggle a bit with damage due to only having around 3-ish Forma on their Rubico. I... Am not a perticular fan of the Rubico. I'll talk a bit about the current setup we're using a bit later, but I'm currently working with the Vectis. The Chakkhur... Honestly, I did not have a Chakkhur until earlier this week. That one has been very elusive for me. But having used it, I can see why it'd be good? But, like most Grineer weapons, it handles (not the aim, the aim is fine. Like the whole reload/fire rate thing/Mag size things,) kinda clunkily. I haven't invested in it, though, but I could easily see it as being super viable.

To answer the other questions, candidate weapons we've tried and (very) brief reviews on them: (Quoted from @taiiat) :

• all of the Sniper Rifles, obviously.
  • This so far as been my favorite category. I've always liked sniper rifles (I run them in normal missions with some frames, if you can believe). Regarding individual ones:
    • Rubico: It's mostly the high crit multipler that makes this a standout, I think.
    • Vectis: Slightly weaker, but I think it works better for me due to how it functions. More on this later.
    • Komorex: No. It's great, it's powerful, but I couldn't figure out how to leverage that against Eidolons given how much the status and explosions are part of its power.
    • Lanka: My GODS do I hate this weapon. It's a good weapon, and I actually have a riven for it. But the way it handles is just so anathematic to my preferences. If you can deal with that, I think it's a very solid choice, though.
    • Snipetron Vandal: It's... Fine? Didn't standout much to me, and I hate its scope graphics, so I gave it a miss.
    • Vulkar Wraith: Almost went with this one. I have a riven for it, it's got some unique mods, and with a riven the shots are really solid. Worth considering if you're investing in it anyways, don't know if I'd recommend outside of that.
• Paris Prime
  • I'm not... Amazing with bows? But I can see why the PP is up here. It's got great crit rate, does very 'spikey' damage, and with a riven is a pretty good contender. I feel like what's holding it back is my own slightly lackluster skill with the weapon type.
• Kuva Chakkhurr
  • See above. Less a scoped sniper and more of a DMR, like the Grinlok. Feels like it could be rediculous with some investment, though. The lack of having to scope it feels really useful here but that reload is bigger than Christopher Boykin (MHRIP)..
• Ferrox
  • Spearguns are... Weird. I struggle to use this weapon a bit, but that feels like practice. I think this is a little more 'spam-y' than the snipers, which might mess with Void Strike a bit, but more testing would be needed.
• Attica
  • You'd think the Zhuge Prime would be on here, too. But I discovered why. So much of it comes from radial damage. The Attica doesn't. Again, it's a more 'spammy' choice, but I have actually considered going back to this before.
• Prisma Grinlok
  • This is another top contender for me. If the Vectis doesn't perform the way I want it to, this one is going to be next. It's a glorious DRM that I want to use more anyway, so that doesn't hurt.
• Buzlok
  • So... Again, this is spammy, but I think viable.
• Euphona Prime
  • I actually used this for a long time and may go back to it. I tend to run out of ammo doing Eidolons spams, I have a riven for it, and having a secondary that can slam down an Eidolon is always good. If you want to try something a bit unusual, it's a nice one.
• Ballistica Prime
  • I... Again, this is one of those weapons that I'm not especially good at handling. I could totally see how it could do it, but my own awkwardness with it makes it not really a good candidate for me until I commit to learning the weapon. I recently started using the Rakta Ballistica with my Ivara loadout, so maybe, who knows.
• Knell
  • This one... Is kinda rough. I can see how it could totally work, but my issue is that it's clearly going to take a decent amount of forma investment to get that reload low enough for this to work out. So I gave it a pass.
• Catchmoon (sorta)
  • I can totally see why this could work. I legit have considered running a test with Equinox or Wukong with this thing.I tried it without, and while it's sorta fine, that lack of range REALLY hurts it.
• Vaykor Hek (sorta)
  • I didn't even try, honestly. The Hek series and me have never gotten along. I get how it's supposed to work, but no. I'll wait until I actually figure out a way to enjoy the weapon before trying it out there.
• Corinth(sorta)
  • Another one I didn't test, mostly because I use the Corinth in another loadout, and I can already see a lot of the issues with trying to turn that thing against eidolons.It's doable, I think, but I don't want to try and climb that mountain.
• Tombfinger:
  • I tried this. I have a Tombfinger and a Tombfigner riven. But the way my Tombfinger is built is NOT ideal for Eidolon hunting, especially not practicing with two-men for how it usually plays out for us. If you have one that is high-crit, high-magazine size, I might give that a go. Mine has a magazine size of something like 5 or 7. It reloads really fast, but the fact that I have to pause for about 1-2 seconds to let it reload means it controls in ways that can cause problems with knockdown. Hrm. Might need to try it without that Arcane.

On 2020-01-18 at 5:30 AM, (PS4)Pumba_Beneator said:

I'd like to try something new 🙂  Have you guys tried Limbo ? I've tried Volt, the damage output is just excellent, but I loose lures in the Gantu and Hydro phases. I've tried Vazarin to heal them (void dash), Unairu for the damage reduction (void mode) and the wisp (hard to use I think), but not quite convinced they're easy enough to substitute from Trinity blessing. Well - have you guys tried something fun different than the meta, but still reasonnably efficient ?

So, if you haven't already, we've mucked around with Limbo. He was actually in our earliest things. The banish CAN keep the lures protected, but the bubble is not an ideal solution. It's doable, but Limbo himself is a very awkward puppy in the fight (SO squishy. SO MUCH squishy). His void also doesn't seem to be 100% safe from all the Eidolons attacks, so it makes things more dicey. But, if you can handle him, he might work out. Vazarin can manage it without the need for Trinity, if you have it maxed, but that's a very spammy, very active and alert method of doing it. It's super intensive, but can be done.

 

We've tried a number of other frames, actually. Excalibur Umbra, Wukong, Ivara, Rhino, Mag, Nyx, Mesa... I want to say a few more, but I don't remember. I can sort of understand why the meta is what it is, but here's a number of things discovered from those frames that actually serve a useful purpose in those fights, and what we've discovered. Please keep in mind that these were done over a number of different patches, so whether or not these things still actively function may be up in the air:

• Excalibur Umbra:
  • Umbra here has the interesting ability to run around while you're in operator form. This seems utterly pointless, until we discovered that Umbra WILL target the vomvalysts "rushing to the Eidolon's aid". He's a bit random in how he approaches it, but he totally will, and that can actually be kinda useful, as he can knock them into their wisp form and then you can hose them down with your amp. My friend ran like this for a number of runs.
• Wukong:
  • Similar to Umbra, the Wuclone can help out with Volvalyst clearing. UNLIKE Umbra, if you eschew a melee weapon he'll also be able to fire on the Eidolon and do some damage to it as well. Actually something we're considering playing around with more. His cloud walker disorientate thing also can briefly disrupt incoming vomvalysts, so that's handy. I wouldn't rank him as top tier, exactly, but Wukong might actually be able have a place in this whole circus, even mainstream. This is mostly theory, as we've only done one or two of the runs with the monkey king, but it's an interesting thought.
• Ivara:
  • I think everyone knows about the dashwire thing. It's... Handy, but can be super awkward and requires both a decent amount of coordination and environmental luck. No, we tried Ivara to see if we could stealth-kill an Eidolon. (we tried the dashwire thing, too, admittedly). Turns out you... Kinda can? They'll fire at your starchildren, obviously, but their attacks will be super random and not really aimed at you when it's time to damage them. However, the volume of stray fire can make this... Problematic.
• Rhino:
  • One word: Roar. I don't like Rhino, but that can seriously amp up your damage in the normal-damage phases if you're built for it.
• Mag:
  • So, we tried this one for a number of reasons. Sadly, it mostly doesn't work, but she actually kinda CAN replace Trinity/Oberon as healer, if she has a decent pulse to restore the lures' shields. It's a bit rough, though.
• Nyx:
  • Why Nyx? Becaues I'm a Nyx main. And because armour reduction. This does not work on the EIdolon, we discovered. However, the Psychic Bolts augment WILL stun the crap out of the Vomvalysts. While I don't know that she has a place in 2-manning things, I could easily see her as Vomvalyst-deterrent with Chaos Sphere and... Confusion Bolts, I think it's called? In a 3-4 man. She's surprisingly good at it.
• Mesa:
  • Mesa's like a more aggressive Nyx, by and large. Her Peacemakers can help her fry the Vomvalysts. There are some issues she has that Nyx doesn't, though: namely it's hard for her to aim through the Eidolon. It sort of acts like a giant shield wall for its smaller brethren.

Hope those insights help!

So, with all these answers and advice, how've we been doing? We're almost down to under 20 minutes for the first two Eidolons, and almost always (unless we're just WAY off our game) get them under 25 minutes. We can't... Quite deal with Hydrolyst yet. So we're working to try and perfect our first two, to get them to 15 minutes or under, and then we're going after that last one. But we feel like we can do it, now!

What we've been doing lately/What we're currently working on now:

Currently, the setups we're using are as follows.

Myself:

• Amp:
  • Klamora Prism
  • Certus Brace
  • Shraksun Scaffold
• Frame:
  • Trinity Prime
• Primary:
  • Vectis Prime
• Secondary:
  • Gaze-based Kitgun
• Melee:
  • Zaw Staff
• Companion:
  • Djinn

My friend:

• Amp:
  • Shwaak Prism
  • ???? Brace (Don't remember)
  • ???? Scaffold (Don't remember)
• Frame:
  • Volt Prime
• Primary:
  • Rubico Prime
• Secondary:
  • ???? (Don't remember)
• Melee:
  • Wolf Hammer
• Companion:
  • Djinn

So, we're using Djinn mostly because it's easy to deal with. I need to mess around with the shade thing, though. We're still playing around with it, but the biggest issue we've found so far is all the knockdown/knockback. I'm running Trinity to deal with the Lure Damage, and they're using Volt because Volt Shield. My amp was designed to be able to quickly shred the Eidolon (which it does pretty well) and also to have an option to just hose down Vomvalysts, and it functions fine in both roles. My friends is primarily designed to mess up Vomvalyst add-ons and be able to add damage to the Eidolon's shields to back me up, although they're considering changing theirs up a bit. They're waiting until they're further along with Vox Solaris first, though.

I'm using the Vectis Prime to address one of the biggest issues I found during Eidolon hunting: Reloading.

This might change with higher levels of Void Stalker (I'm still only rank 2, I only just recently started investing in Madurai seriously, it was this thread that got me to) but as it stands right now, in the final damage-spam phase, I find myself running out of a mag within like 10-20% of an Eidolon's health left. This is a problem, as it can leave them wide open to be boosted by a Vomvalyst as I sit there reloading. WHEN I can reload. Even with Handspring (I don't have primed yet) the amount of stumble effects the Eidolons can have is biblical. So, I'm working on beefing my Vectis prime up (I had a riven for it anyways, and now I have Primed Chamber, so yay,) because it NEVER needs to reload. I can fire it as fast as it can fire, the end. If it plays out the way I'm hoping (seems to be, so far, but only one test run thus far) it'll end up letting me avoid that. It IS lower damage, but I still need to roll that riven more AND it wants a couple more forma, so we'll see how it goes.

Once again, thank you everyone for your help. I have no doubt that we'll keep playing around with this, but you've (mostly) all been a big help!

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Winter_One

[taiiat]

On 2020-01-18 at 5:30 AM, (PS4)Pumba_Beneator said:

Rubico riven disposition has been going down steadily down to one now, I have to empty a full clip plus some more bullets to get one limb (granted, I miss quite a lot...). Wasn't the case before. This is Trinity so no damage buff (solo), but still... In the list of other candidate weapons that were put up there, did you guys actually try any ? What are your thoughts ? I hear the Chakkhur is good.

Warframe Abilities are not the only source of extra Damage, Warframe Mods&Arcanes can also offer Damage. as well as offer Reload/Fire Rate, Et Cetera.
since you have Void Strike that helps your Damage too. and if you dump a few mags into each Eidolon before the first Health Phase, that'll help with Damage as well and you can charge Void Strike after that. assuming that things are moving fast enough for that, since ofcourse Rubico does lose 0.5 hits/second.

Arcane Arachne offers some Damage, and with a nice Duration. Acceleration offers DPS, Momentum a different kind of DPS.
Vigorous Swap offers some Damage, Synth Set could potentially offer some DPS, Tek Set could potentially offer some Damage but pretty inconsistent.
Energy Shell (Odonata) can act as a stand-in for Electric Shield for IPS Weapons (Elemental Weapons prefer Electric Shield since they can stack the benefits), a gamble on whether you'll die trying that or not though.

 

1 hour ago, Winter_One said:

-snip-

Rubico is popular because of not needing a Riven for consistent Crits, the Optic Bonus applying to all Shots, and having a Hit Counter that starts at 1.
Komorex is bad for Eidolon Hunting, ye.
Ferrox is essentially a Sniper Rifle without the Hit Counter.
Euphona isn't really that weird, it's one of the not that many Secondary Weapons that are well suited for Eidolon Hunting. :p
the point of Knell is to keep its buff active so that you don't need to Reload.

1 hour ago, Winter_One said:

Even with Handspring (I don't have primed yet)

if there's a Primed version of what you're talking about, you aren't using Handspring. you're trying to use Knockdown Resist, but Knockdown Resist is literally useless everywhere in the game. use Handspring instead, it's better. you can try your luck with adding Pain Threshold too, but half the time it just feels like you speed up the Stagger Animation so that you can get Staggered more times and not actually gain anything because you just get Staggered an equal number more times / second that Pain Threshold speeds up.

Vectis has to Reload just like almost every Gun does, it just has a Magazine of 1 so that it Reloads when you shoot. the time between Shots with vanilla Vectis are limited by Reload, 1000ms of Reload itself, plus a brief moment of "Recoil". you can cut roughly 250ms off of the total time if you manually Reload though.

[jxfireruby]

On 2020-01-13 at 6:18 PM, Winter_One said:

 

• A lot of recommendations for tackling Eidolons one-on-one (or with a small group) suggest using Shattering Impact to remove Eidolon Armour to boost Damage. Is that a thing?

 

Shattering Impact can still remove Eidolon Armor. Do note that only removing some (not all) of the armor (to keep the 75% rad bonus) is advised.

 

On 2020-01-13 at 6:18 PM, Winter_One said:

 

• I've flipped-flopped a lot back and forth between Archguns and Sniper Rifles, and I've had a really hard time deciding what's more effective. I usually mod for Radiation, but there's often an IPS compoenent (been using the Rubico Prime and the Imperator (if I'm spelling that right) Vandal, respectively.Would something purely elemental be better?
• I've also tried playing around with the Euphona Prime, which has had some success. None of them seems to fully 'work' with my playstyle on the Plains, though. Are there any other weapons or weapon types that stand up well to the Eidolons?

 

Damage is damage. Something purely elemental could still have less damage due to worse base damage, cc, cd etc. You have to check the DPS to decide what would be better (also some weapons have unique mechanics that theoretical DPS calculations are not that great).

 

On 2020-01-13 at 6:18 PM, Winter_One said:

 

• The vomvalyst swarm has been a continual thorn in our sides. I've seen people basically nuke down Eidolons immediately. Is this entirely due to (I think) Madurai? I don't think I've put a lot into that school, but I almost chose it as my starter over Zenurik, and with that finished I'm looking for a second one to seriously start chewing at.

 

For shield phase, Madurai's Void Strike is the primary amp buffer and Volt's Shield and Unairu Wisp are used in conjunction with Void Strike. For nuking the Eidolon after the shield phase, Void Strike is less of a benefit if you're using a sniper (combo counter is more important) and with other weapons, Void strike is less significant than several other warframe buffs since Void Strike doesn't apply to all pellets if you have multishot.

On 2020-01-13 at 6:18 PM, Winter_One said:

 

• A lot of recommendations make a very big deal over the need to heal the lures. Is this absolutely critical?
  • If so, what can heal them? I know Trinity and Oberon can, but anything else?

 

Healing is not necessary. However, if you choose to forgo the healing, you need to kill the eidolon very quickly or else you would have to replace lures often (especially for the last two). Varazarin's dash can heal lures. Limbo can protect lures with his rift (I am unsure if the augment heals the lures).

 

On 2020-01-13 at 6:18 PM, Winter_One said:

 

• So far, it seems like the best thing to actually take down Eidolons are 'anti-tank' weapons: high damage, high crit chance, fast firing weapons that ignore status. Is that accurate?

 

Best weapons are usually weapons with the best paper dps since status effects do not work against eidolons.

 

On 2020-01-13 at 6:18 PM, Winter_One said:

 

• Does the Eidolon have a 'head'? In a mechanical sense, I mean. Can it be headshot for sniper bonuses?

 

The eidolon does have a head. The eidolon is humanoid is the place where the human head would be is the eidolon's head. This is tested by using harrow 4's buff at max buff (50%). A rubico prime with point strike only has 95% critical chance thus would only be doing yellow crits. A headshot with harrow 4's buff would give 200% additive critical chance whereas a body shot would only give 50%. You would get consistent red crits if shooting the area I said before.

 

On 2020-01-13 at 6:18 PM, Winter_One said:

 

• So, despite having run in public groups a few times before, I have never fully understood why 'the meta' is what it is, beyond the fact that Chroma boosts ally damage and you can fire through Volt's shield to add electric damage. But isn't electric less effective against the Eidolon's armour? Is there something useful here I'm missing? A few suggestions for small group have focused on Volt.

 

I assuming the meta group you're talking about is Volt, Trinity, Harrow, and Harrow. Volt's shield adds electric damage. According to the wiki, electric will combine with mods if the bullet that passes through is a non-hitscan and will not combine with mods if the bullet is hitscan. The most important part is that volt's shield multiples critical damage by 200% (this is multiplicative to modded critical damage). I believe this is the only warframe ability that buffs amp at the moment. Harrow protects against magnetic procs during the eidolon scream and provides a critical chance buff. Harrow is the most easily replaced since oberon can protect against magnetic as well and buff with his smite augment or if every has Arcane Nullifer, any warframe that can buff can replace harrow. Trinity is for healing as noted in a question before. Chroma boost damage but can be replaced/unnecessary depending on the mods you own.

 

On 2020-01-13 at 6:18 PM, Winter_One said:

 

• Everyone seems to recommend a... Shwarksun? I think? Brace. I have never built an amp using that one (I never had an interest in it). How does it work, and why is it so much better?
  • If you want to talk in depth about amps, please keep in mind, I have never, ever gotten a hang of the Amp numbering/Lettering system. Please use the names or reference what they do. I do want to understand, but that entire classification system genuinely seems to escape me.

 

Amp have a prism, scaffold and brace. Prism is primary fire, scaffold is secondary fire and brace is stat modifier. Shraksun Scaffold has innate punch-through and explodes after 10 meters and has high base damage and decent amount of critical chance. The innate punch through is nice because you can get 3-4 hits on the eidolon with 1 bullet (I believe 1 is from the explosion and the rest is from punch through). The position is usually under a foot aimed toward the knee. I remember there is some weird interaction of which hits can weird so you might want to do some research on that on your own. High critical chance is great because when  you have Void Strike, you want to one shot the half shields. Shraksun Scaffold is also the easiest for speed runs since the timing for shooting is easy. The Propa Scaffold is recommended as well only if you have void strike. The Propa has higher base damage and Crit chance than Shraksun but lacks punch through. The Propa bullet is a orb that travesl 2-3 meters and then explodes after a few seonds. I'm pretty sure the Propa explosion has falloff. Energy consumption is high so using it without Void Strike for one shotting shields is not recommeneded. Certus Brace is recommended (20% critical chance buff) or Lohrin Brace(12% critical chance buff) if you do not have certus. I don't the best dps amps if you do not have void strike.

 

On 2020-01-13 at 6:18 PM, Winter_One said:

• Our current model has been one of us tries to nuke down the Eidolon (once all shields are gone) and the other one holds off the swarm. Is this actually a good idea, or is it a better one for both of us to try and dump damage on them?

 

I would say that's fine but killing the eidolon shouldn't take that long. Do note that after the last shields, when Onko says something along the line of "smaller eidolons are rushing to heal the bigger one", that if you kill the smaller ones, the eidolon stands up with less health.