Delete - this isn't feedback, i prefer it deleted then my intentions be walked on.(enrichment if our gameplay- why you may find pvp hard?)

[Leavith]

12 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gTTJXU2sSs

Based on this video, at ~3:18, Iron Skin absorbs around 827 damage. Assuming it's Excal's 10% damage bonus in play, that means the slide attack is doing upwards of 750 damage. Judging by (old) reference charts here, where Frost Prime has the highest EHP at sub-350 (and Frost Prime's Conclave stats haven't changed since then, so far as I know), it's definitely not squishiness or Excalibur passives.

You know, based on the wiki, I was under the impression that they would have designed it so that pro-health damage types would have the same multiplier so that there isn't that kind of wildly mismatched efficacy. Good to know I was wrong. /half-s

I think there may be an issue iron skin is all ferrite armor and doesn't have to deal with reductions. There may be other things involved though. That's to much of oversight and i don't think it was an intended purpose.

[Tyreaus]

9 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

No no, you're not wrong.

Am I, though? According to the thread you linked, and assuming I'm understanding things properly, Corrosive has a 1.0 multiplier on shields (same as Elec, considered neutral), the largest armour multiplier, and guaranteed armour-stripping procs. Blast, conversely, has proc chances, the same 1.0 shield multiplier, and performs below-neutral on armour. And I mean, sure, that can theoretically all still be balanced on a per-weapon basis, but not only does that put a hell of a double-speak spin on the phrase "Corrosive is good against health, Blast is good against shields", it makes the entire aspect of balance a giant freaking mess.

2 minutes ago, Leavith said:

I think there may be an issue iron skin is all ferrite armor and doesn't have to deal with reductions. There may be other things involved though. That's to much of oversight and i don't think it was an intended purpose.

Based on the video, the issue seems to be that it's doing the right amount of slide attack damage, but is multi-hitting. (The number on Rhino's Iron Skin jumps up several times in rapid succession)

I don't believe it was intended, either. But it's a thing currently in the game.

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

Conclave is some poorly balanced, janky-feeling PVP without dedicated servers.

Warframe is entirely too agile a game for PVP with sketchy connectivity and a time-to-kill that's too low.

Also, all the Conclave mods blow pretty hard.  They're all just "make this thing a lot worse to make this other thing a smidge better" to such a degree that it'd just be better if Conclave had no mods at all.

Edited January 14, 2020 by (PS4)Hooligantuan

[Leavith]

54 minutes ago, Leavith said:

You're posting in general discussion.....

If you only wanted people who like conclave you used the wrong part of the forum and in all honesty, with your number of posts you should know about the conclave section of the forum, so I can only assume that what you really wanted to do was complain about those of us who dislike conclave saying negative things about conclave.

This is your reply... Conclave category on the forum is for feedback. My post doesn't give feedback to DE it gives information to the player touching more on the guide side. However, it also opens to discussion my feedback not solidify it as being the only reason. My main topic is the discussion of the damage type in warframe and how not knowing how they work can make things hards. It also gives the application of how to use the information and facilitate a player that is doing pvp or will do pvp.

My post starts doesn't begin with negative discussions or complaints about it. I don't say pvp is hard i state that when you are missing this information pvp will be hard as you will end up playing with expectation for a result that cannot happen cause you are blocking yourself from your own result by not understanding.

In my opening post, i don't talk about people who say negative things about conclave or that people say negative things.

If you read you would know this if you did then you didn't understand, and i guess is my fault because i should have said if you have any question ask or feedback.

But if you still think is feedback and in the wrong place report it.

[Leavith]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Hooligantuan said:

Conclave is some poorly balance, janky-feeling PVP without dedicated servers.

Warframe is entirely too agile a game for PVP with sketchy connectivity and a time-to-kill that's too low.

Also, all the Conclave mods blow pretty hard.  They're all just "make this thing a lot worse to make this other thing a smidge better" to such a degree that it'd just be better if Conclave had no mods at all.

I understand what you are saying. I agree and disagree on some parts. However my main thing to tell you, my topic and post isn't that discussion. While i cannot stop you from posting my opening post doesn't talk or mention this or my intention was to argue about this.

Is mainly the talk on damage & resistance 

Understanding what you are shooting at and what you should be shooting at them. When you lack this information how things can get hard.

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, Tyreaus said:

Am I, though? According to the thread you linked, and assuming I'm understanding things properly, Corrosive has a 1.0 multiplier on shields (same as Elec, considered neutral), the largest armour multiplier, and guaranteed armour-stripping procs. Blast, conversely, has proc chances, the same 1.0 shield multiplier, and performs below-neutral on armour. And I mean, sure, that can theoretically all still be balanced on a per-weapon basis, but not only does that put a hell of a double-speak spin on the phrase "Corrosive is good against health, Blast is good against shields", it makes the entire aspect of balance a giant freaking mess.

 

You're not wrong as in: it doesn't work any different from PvE. If you know how to calculate damage in PvE (who does, though?), you're good to go.

Yes, it's a mess, because PvE is a mess in that regard. And the game doesn't explain anything at all.

That's what the EHP chart is for, though. Excalibur's EHP in Conclave is pretty average, slightly health-heavy (check the bars for Neutral). That's why we do calcs against him these days (old thread has an imaginary {Average} frame, but the idea is the same).

And yes, to make weapons balanced against each other for damage types that are inherently worse, they of course need higher base damage to balance things out again. That's basically why it's more important to know which damage type favours health over shields, and vice versa. Ideally, anyway.

TL;DR: It's complicated, use the EHP chart and note the shield/health relationships.

[----Legacy----]

47 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The forums make conclave look like competitive hugging contests.

Forumframe is the true PvP of Warframe.

But a big amount of forum users seem to be afraid of going into conclave because of the creepy experienced players that lie in there. Not even Vay Kek or Lephantis on a melee only sortie 3 seem to induce that amount of fear in wf players.

[Leavith]

1 minute ago, ----Legacy---- said:

But a big amount of forum users seem to be afraid of going into conclave because of the creepy experienced players that lie in there. Not even Vay Kek or Lephantis on a melee only sortie 3 seem to induce that amount of fear in wf players.

Vay hek and Lephantis ... You can use powers to facilitate.😎

[Paradoxity]

1 minute ago, ----Legacy---- said:

But a big amount of forum users seem to be afraid of going into conclave because of the creepy experienced players that lie in there. Not even Vay Kek or Lephantis on a melee only sortie 3 seem to induce that amount of fear in wf players.

IDK if it's fear as much as it is apathy towards the game mode in general. To be fair, noob bashing no doubt drives people away as well, and the concept of having to re-learn 75% of everything we know about modding, frames, weapons, and damage really doesn't appeal when we've already got to do that with actively supported PvE content. 

[----Legacy----]

6 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

IDK if it's fear as much as it is apathy towards the game mode in general. To be fair, noob bashing no doubt drives people away as well, and the concept of having to re-learn 75% of everything we know about modding, frames, weapons, and damage really doesn't appeal when we've already got to do that with actively supported PvE content. 

Why would anyone need to re-learn 75% of everything when the parkour system is exactly the same, the damage system is exactly the same, weapons are balanced around keeping the same mechanical feel to their PvE counterparts (when unmodded), and the biggest changes are the replacement of randomness from critical chance/damage with headshot damage multiplier and that it uses different mods to keep a semblant of balance while the modding system still works in the same way as in PvE. 

I'd say that the issue of many players is actually having to learn part of the game to succeed in conclave since there's no actual reason to learn about it in pve.

[Leavith]

5 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I'd say that the issue of many players is actually having to learn part of the game to succeed in conclave since there's no actual reason to learn about it in pve.

Dude... Savage. 

I ain't gonna say you right but i am neither gonna say you are wrong.

.... But bro to far... They are just kids you didn't have to do them like that.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Leavith

[Aldain]

I see we've reached the point where it is now "The only reason people don't play conclave is because they are scared and/or lazy".

...Reminds me of the "Don't you guys have phones?" marketing strategy used by Blizzard for Diablo Immortal.

[Kontrollo]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I see we've reached the point where it is now "The only reason people don't play conclave is because they are scared and/or lazy".

...Reminds me of the "Don't you guys have phones?" marketing strategy used by Blizzard for Diablo Immortal.

I don't think that's the take-away message here. 🤔

Rather: things are complicated because they're complicated in PvE. Let's talk about how it works and what to look out for.

[Leavith]

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I see we've reached the point where it is now "The only reason people don't play conclave is that they are scared and/or lazy".

...Reminds me of the "Don't you guys have phones?" marketing strategy used by Blizzard for Diablo Immortal.

Welp is honest, i don't think that be the case people play what they enjoy.

 Well let me be clear i haven't 

Some people don't want to give something a try and that's fine, but some people want to not give it a try and then come on and complain about that.

Some people really are lazy and such actually don't want to put the work in and would like it to feel as easy as other parts of the game. 

While others tried it and didn't enjoy it.

I think everyone has a right to there opinion. Should you share it... Well, that is a different story as it applies only to not the specific topic. Mine was a specific form of discussion which is why i had to correct so many why they posting here that.

Maybe i am being unfair as i say this but people when you are definitely ignorant and completely bias, knowing this, you come around to post something i think they shouldn't. They first should actually pay attention, then feel free to critic it.

I can't be posting about my grandmother being sick what her symptoms are and for some reason you suddenly say well grandparent are old and they get sick so you shouldn't worry about her symptom and just let her die cause you are wasting a doctor's time.

I also can't be talking about my grandmother getting better at her house and you then saying how crappy my house is... Like yeah my grandma is at a house just not mine so why does that matter. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Leavith

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

33 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

IDK if it's fear as much as it is apathy towards the game mode in general. To be fair, noob bashing no doubt drives people away as well, and the concept of having to re-learn 75% of everything we know about modding, frames, weapons, and damage really doesn't appeal when we've already got to do that with actively supported PvE content. 

You are not relearning 75% of everything you know when you learn to play conclave. The things you have to learn are map layouts and the mechanics of how oro/cephalons work in Conclave. Everything else is pretty much the same. Sure, some abilities are different, like Ivara's quiver. But most abilities are not drastically different. Loki still goes invisible with invisibility. Mag still puts the bullet attracting bubble on you with magnetize. Excalibur still slash dashes and uses his exalted blade. Valkyr still uses her swing line to swing around,
Key takeaway here is that there isnt that big of a difference.

Modding is almost irrelevant in conclave. Some mods are useful, like agile aim, wherein the user of said mod moves 20% faster while aiming. But they are not the deciding factor on whether or not you win or lose. The modding is not a significant factor in conclave.

Damage is pretty much the same, too. You shoot someone and then they die. The only serious difference here is that there are no crits in conclave. You can only get "crits" through headshots.
 

[Paradoxity]

4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I see we've reached the point where it is now "The only reason people don't play conclave is because they are scared and/or lazy".

...Reminds me of the "Don't you guys have phones?" marketing strategy used by Blizzard for Diablo Immortal.

Same argument it's ever been. "Players don't do PvP because they're scared/lazy!" "Players don't do PvP because the rewards aren't good enough!". It's never "Players don't do PvP because they have no interest." Warframe did fine for two years without conclave, warframe continues to do fine without spending effort on a vestigial PvP mode- especially one that requires relearning the game. Speaking of which.... 

13 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Why would anyone need to re-learn 75% of everything when the parkour system is exactly the same, the damage system is exactly the same, weapons are balanced around keeping the same mechanical feel to their PvE counterparts (when unmodded), and the biggest changes are the replacement of randomness from critical chance/damage with headshot damage multiplier and that it uses different mods to keep a semblant of balance while the modding system still works in the same way as in PvE. 

That's a straight lie and you know it. Parkour is the same, player movement is most certainly not. Damage mechanics are the same... unless you count the removal of crit and status procs, which are bread and butter for PvE weapons, and replacement with a headshot modifier. Weapons have their numbers significantly changed (PvE mods don't work at all and PvP mods are far more akin to corrupted mods than standard mods, meaning that build philosophies and mechanics work differently for what weapons are even available in the mode. And we know for a fact warframes don't work the same, simply from the fact that they have to balance them separate for conclave (and have stopped post, like, Gara, apparently). 

 

 

[Leavith]

22 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

 

That's a straight lie and you know it. Parkour is the same, player movement is most certainly not. Damage mechanics are the same... unless you count the removal of crit and status procs, which are bread and butter for PvE weapons, and replacement with a headshot modifier. Weapons have their numbers significantly changed (PvE mods don't work at all and PvP mods are far more akin to corrupted mods than standard mods, meaning that build philosophies and mechanics work differently for what weapons are even available in the mode. And we know for a fact warframes don't work the same, simply from the fact that they have to balance them separate for conclave (and have stopped post, like, Gara, apparently). 

 

 

Well, i think the main thing here to discuss is that yes it is the same mechanics but the way they are useful and can be used are different.

Mods are now optional unlike PVE but they are still mods.

Parkour still the same, but unlike you know using it to move around... Is now being used to survive.

Guns still do about the same but are now balanced.

Power also about the same but is adjusted for balance.

Mechanics aren't different what change is how we are now using them.

Kinda like a box. We use a box to carry stuff or we use a box to store stuff. It is still a box but their functions are different. As a bike and motorcycle, a two-wheel object used for transportation but how they do it is different. A car and semi-truck both use for transportation but they aren't being used for the same purpose.

I would say at least the core is the same but differ in 25% which is balance and adjustments. The other stuff isn't a difference but how you play it but at that point, it is unfair to call it different because we get to the whole situation of Defense missions and capture mission. Yeah, they are both missions but to play them right and the most proficiently you are going to...

Move different

Mod differently

Use powers differently

And even face different degrees of difficulty. Like defense, enemies will get higher in lvl while capturing nope.

____

Now on the previous statement, you aren't wrong people do say stuff like that, but most of the time is because this is the people who are talking about pvp and don't play it.

Best example is why if you don't play cause you are not interested are you bashing pvp on a thread that is to discuss the difficulty people who play pvp face. This ain't even about why people don't play it but the difficulty people who play it have.

You aren't interested so what are they doing here, because there reason for not playing isn't lack of interest... Or they wouldn't care.

A lot of time, if you don't play pvp because you don't like it and is not your thing us Warframe pvp community understand and we don't have beef with it.

Yet when people come around who have a beef with us for what we play is mainly because they don't play it themselves yet they care ?... Does that make sense? The best conclusion we can arrive on that one is lazyness. As for they don't find it rewarding enough that is also a conclusion we reach when we look at the idea of why some people quit pvp who do play pvp, because the game doesn't revolve around pvp so we waste the time in pvp and we loose out on pve so we can only quit pvp, cause stuff at pvp ain't good enough.

Hope this clears stuff up.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Leavith

[Kontrollo]

17 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

unless you count the removal of crit and status procs ... Weapons have their numbers significantly changed ...

There are status procs, however. Damage numbers are different, not the stats that give weapons their basic feel. Seeing different numbers on screen is hardly a problem you need to adjust your gameplay for.

The biggest difference you'd have to adapt to which is caused by the lack PvE mods, is probably the fire rate -- but that's only if you've put fire rate mods on all of your weapons in the first place, now is it.

[Paradoxity]

15 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

There are status procs, however. Damage numbers are different, not the stats that give weapons their basic feel. Seeing different numbers on screen is hardly a problem you need to adjust your gameplay for.

The biggest difference you'd have to adapt to which is caused by the lack PvE mods, is probably the fire rate -- but that's only if you've put fire rate mods on all of your weapons in the first place, now is it.

You're right. I misread.

Physical damage doesn't proc, not all damage doesn't proc. That's my bad. 

 

EDIT: 

I skimmed the wall 'o text above your post, but I wanted to pick this out: 

 

31 minutes ago, Leavith said:

Yet when people come around who have a beef with us for what we play is mainly because they don't play it themselves yet they care ?

We have a problem with PvP because we don't want resources spent on marginal modes when primary gameplay modes desperately need attention. Many of us have run into good PvE games ruined for the  sake of PvP 'balance' and we don't want that either, though, with that said, DE has at least avoided that by making a  hard separation between the two modes.  

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Paradoxity

[Leavith]

3 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

You're right. I misread.

Physical damage doesn't proc, not all damage doesn't proc. That's my bad. 

 

Slash damage proc, try dread... Impact proc force stances can show that and attacks of melee also show it.

Even puncture can proc sometimes I seen it been hit by it.

[Paradoxity]

Just now, Leavith said:

Slash damage proc, try dread... Impact proc force stances can show that and attacks of melee also show it.

Even puncture can proc sometimes I seen it been hit by it.

Not even remotely the same thing and you know it. One weapon can proc =/ damage can proc. If I want to build a viral/slash status weapon that isn't dread, I can't. I can do that in PvE with almost any weapon I want (Though clearly there's going to be some weapons that are much better at it than others... I'd hate to try to build a viral/slash status gorgon.)

 

 

 

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, Paradoxity said:

You're right. I misread.

Physical damage doesn't proc, not all damage doesn't proc. That's my bad.

Well, there are tweaks here and there, e.g. Ash has a passive bleed proc with Nikanas. Anyway, the general idea is:

• No random damage i.e. crit/status % (mostly/ideally)
• Weapon damage output is adjusted so that all weapons are viable options from the start (ideally, at least, it's a bit more complicated again)

 

And of course, I totally get that for some people it's a deal breaker to not being able to use the PvE mods/loadouts at all. The game as a whole is big on the whole customisation thing, in every regard, and we all have our preferences.

I just wanted to point out that it's still the same weapons, and the adjustments were made with the overarching goal of making weapons balanced against each other.

[Leavith]

26 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

I skimmed the wall 'o text above your post, but I wanted to pick this out: 

 

56 minutes ago, Leavith said:

Yet when people come around who have a beef with us for what we play is mainly because they don't play it themselves yet they care ?

We have a problem with PvP because we don't want resources spent on marginal modes when primary gameplay modes desperately need attention. Many of us have run into good PvE games ruined for the  sake of PvP 'balance' and we don't want that either, though, with that said, DE has at least avoided that by making a  hard separation between the two modes.  

 

The wall of text address all you said, gives you examples, and gives you reasons.

What you say is cool and all but what does that have to do with how you treat players who do enjoy pvp. You saw how my thread started, I am not even talking to none interested pvp players, but the ones that care.

I tagged it and posted and even in the introduction mention this. Yet, people come here to bash a game mode I enjoy it to me. Yeah, give DE that in feedback not in people friendly post. If you don't want DE to do so, do it with human decency not on someone thread about fixing, talking, explaining, and discussing about pvp.

Someone makes a thread how to make pvp better we end up with so much toxicity to that player and his thread because of what reason? According to you cause you don't want DE to do anything ... But is that any way to treat your fellow player to leave your feedback in his thread about doing something to make better so much negativity without reason most of the time.

That's neither fair or okay to do so... But you want to say that is your reason.

See that's what I am not okay with, have your opinion but there is a time and place. You treat other right, Warframe has pvp so we want to talk about it, but the negativity it gets because you don't want DE to support it save that for where it matters in feedback not in someone post who is just trying to find like minded people and talk about what they enjoy, what they aren't getting,  or how it can be better.

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Leavith

[Leavith]

19 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

Not even remotely the same thing and you know it. One weapon can proc =/ damage can proc. If I want to build a viral/slash status weapon that isn't dread, I can't. I can do that in PvE with almost any weapon I want (Though clearly there's going to be some weapons that are much better at it than others... I'd hate to try to build a viral/slash status gorgon.

What I am understanding is not same cause is not to your satisfaction.

Did you know what went wrong with dark sector pvp... Pretty much this. You could use pve mods in pvp and everything behave the same as pve.... And here is the deal different weapon will proc different thing depending on what there damage type originally are.

You call it different because you aren't satisfied , this isn't because isn't similar or not the same.

You said physical mods don't proc, and I show you they do by giving you examples... Yet you aren't satisfied and as such you tell me isn't the same .... You are wrong I don't know it, because to me that is satisfactory cause I know what happens when is the same and let me be real the same would suck so much pve wouldn't play it and pvp players wouldn't play it... So what would be the point of making it the same. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Leavith

[----Legacy----]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

I see we've reached the point where it is now "The only reason people don't play conclave is because they are scared and/or lazy".

...Reminds me of the "Don't you guys have phones?" marketing strategy used by Blizzard for Diablo Immortal.

Not really the intention, i meant that warframe as a game is far deeper than what any player ever needs to succeed in pve, reason why many players are just happy with learning the basics and call it a day. 

2 hours ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Pvp in warframe is like having an a really good cake but finding out that 1 piece is horrifically moldy and putrid. 

At least to me, warframe is like a really nice looking cake with plenty of decorations, but when you start slicing it then there was nothing but air under the cover other than a single edible piece of an unpopular flavor which makes most of the people be happy eating just its cover.

2 hours ago, Paradoxity said:

Same argument it's ever been. "Players don't do PvP because they're scared/lazy!" "Players don't do PvP because the rewards aren't good enough!". It's never "Players don't do PvP because they have no interest." 

Players not doing pvp for lack interest or even some other reasons makes sense too, however, as much as i respect the reasons why people like you decide to stay away from pvp i't would be neat if you also were able to respect the reason why other players play it and ask for the devs to work on it once in a while. 

2 hours ago, Paradoxity said:

Warframe did fine for two years without conclave, warframe continues to do fine without spending effort on a vestigial PvP mode- especially one that requires relearning the game. Speaking of which.... 

2 years? conclave was added back in U10 which happened in 2013 while the founders pack was still available for sale. kinda odd to see such an old player with this amount of misinformation. 

2 hours ago, Paradoxity said:

That's a straight lie and you know it. Parkour is the same, player movement is most certainly not. Damage mechanics are the same... unless you count the removal of crit and status procs, which are bread and butter for PvE weapons, and replacement with a headshot modifier. Weapons have their numbers significantly changed (PvE mods don't work at all and PvP mods are far more akin to corrupted mods than standard mods, meaning that build philosophies and mechanics work differently for what weapons are even available in the mode. And we know for a fact warframes don't work the same, simply from the fact that they have to balance them separate for conclave (and have stopped post, like, Gara, apparently). 

A straight lie?

> Parkour system is exactly the same, so player movement options are exactly the same as well (feel free to show some video footage of something that can be done in one mode but no on the other if you're so sure of player movement being different). If you want to talk about actual differences, then feel free to talk about how PvP enemies can (and will) avoid being damaged, adapt and improve mid match without endlessly increasing our EHP while PvE will do conga lines towards your bullets no matter their level and their only way to become stronger is becoming able to absorb more and more bullets that eventually reach the point of insta killing the player out of nowhere.

> Damage mechanics are exactly the same, the removal of crit procs makes sense unless you're okay on losing most encounters against another player with similar aiming capabilities to yours just because he gets crits more often than you while using exactly the same weapon. Status procs are still there under certain conditions and pure elemental weapons proc their status on hit unless it's toxin due to how powerful it is against the tenno faction. Weapon mechanical stats (recoil, reload, accuracy, fire rate) are the same as in PvE too, damage is balanced through a multiplier in order to keep most of the weapons with a similar IPS spread in both modes and mags are cut to avoid spray and pray. 

> Mods not being straight upgrades makes sense when the intention is to have players competing on an even ground, otherwise a single mod and even a single rank can make a huge difference in the outcome of a battle, which doesn't happen when mods provide an actual choice (PvE on the other hand has a set of "mandatory" mods for each weapon category and all a player needs to get the best out of a weapon is to look for its meta build on YT and copy  it).

> The only tweaks about their powers can eb a couple of additional mechanics (like iron skin's decay over time or Soul Punch knocking down the target instead of ragdolling him to the heavens), an effect change (like Silence disabling enemy powers within its radius and turning banshee into a nullifier or Shadows of the dead allowing the user and his team to bypass the respawn screen for a brief time) which are changes made in order to prevent abilities being either useless or OP while keeping them loyal to the frame's theme and mechanically consistent with pve.

So as you can see, even tough one can't deny that there are indeed some changes between pve and pvp, these are not even close to "the 75% of the game" as you initially claimed.