What is the risk or reward of success and failure in Warframe?

[Vit0Corleone]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

basically - delete the generic Enemies and only Spawn the cool Enemies. and from now on, only create more cool Enemies, don't bother spending Development Time on making generic Enemies.

This wouldn't work.

Like it or not, fodder enemies absolutely need to be there, otherwise you lose the horde shooter/slasher aspect of the game, which effectively would in time turn it into a different game.

Need to consider one of the key reasons why people play Warframe, feeding the power fantasy that comes out of swiping your melee and killing 10 guys, pressing 4 and delete an entire spawn etc.

That's not to say that enemies shouldn't be smarter. They definitely should, especially the elite units and mini bosses.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

Enemies don't need to be Warframe Ability spamming Nullifiers with legs in order to be relevant, they just need to be different and not generic. 🙂

I am not saying they need to be ability spamming nullifiers, I was just saying that enemy is bonkers lol. The enemy AI is bad and they need to really put up a fight. I mean how many times have we come to your ship and easily ruined your day guys maybe it is time you pulled out a new tactic lol. I really wish for myself that the game felt more involved with the npcs and lore than just those few story missons I feel that tid bits lore should be steadily unlocked through regular gameplay. I love the game for sure but it needs a bit of a rework. 

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

6 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

This wouldn't work.

Like it or not, fodder enemies absolutely need to be there, otherwise you lose the horde shooter/slasher aspect of the game, which effectively would in time turn it into a different game.

Need to consider one of the key reasons why people play Warframe, feeding the power fantasy that comes out of swiping your melee and killing 10 guys, pressing 4 and delete an entire spawn etc.

That's not to say that enemies shouldn't be smarter. They definitely should, especially the elite units and mini bosses.

I can understand both sides. This is one reason why I play Musou games like Warriors Orochi or other hack n slash mob games. There are harder enemies but it is still fun to destroy lots of peons. There definitely needs to be a balance of the two though and AI needs to improve I shouldn't be able to stand in front of a gun and it hardly shoot me. I have the same issue with Musou games where the enemies will stand there and never hit you. 

[Im_a_Turtle]

On 2020-01-18 at 4:30 PM, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

Why arent you sucked out of the ship when you bust a window?

This used to be a feature on corpus ships back in ~2013 but was removed in one of the first patches at the beginning of 1stQ 2014.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

4 minutes ago, Im_a_Turtle said:

This used to be a feature on corpus ships back in ~2013 but was removed in one of the first patches at the beginning of 1stQ 2014.

Lol how did I miss that 😂? Must have been playing dragons dogma ☺️. 

 

[taiiat]

30 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

This wouldn't work.

Like it or not, fodder enemies absolutely need to be there, otherwise you lose the horde shooter/slasher aspect of the game, which effectively would in time turn it into a different game.

Need to consider one of the key reasons why people play Warframe, feeding the power fantasy that comes out of swiping your melee and killing 10 guys, pressing 4 and delete an entire spawn etc.

That's not to say that enemies shouldn't be smarter. They definitely should, especially the elite units and mini bosses.

nonsense.
you don't have to have almost every Enemy be pointless for that to work. we delete Heavies and Specials just as fast too, but those Enemies can also actually do cool things instead of just standing there.

nothing about the "beyblading through a big group of dudes" changes in any of that, the dudes you're deleting are just more interesting to begin with.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

nonsense.
you don't have to have almost every Enemy be pointless for that to work. we delete Heavies and Specials just as fast too, but those Enemies can also actually do cool things instead of just standing there.

nothing about the "beyblading through a big group of dudes" changes in any of that, the dudes you're deleting are just more interesting to begin with.

How do you both think there can be balance with all the ideas given? 

[taiiat]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Scarletboy76292 said:

How do you both think there can be balance with all the ideas given? 

exactly as i described it because it doesn't change what he was complaining about in the first place.

[844448]

8 hours ago, taiiat said:

i would very much prefer if there were half as many simultaneous Enemies in the game, but the only Enemies in the game were Heavies/Specials

Would love it when 10 bombards/napalms/heavy gunners spamming their weapons at you

[DatDarkOne]

38 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Would love it when 10 bombards/napalms/heavy gunners spamming their weapons at you

Not like it's hard to do.  There are a few frames that make those enemies a none factor all at once.  

[taiiat]

53 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Would love it when 10 bombards/napalms/heavy gunners spamming their weapons at you

would be an improvement, and Enemies have to take turns attacking us anyways, if you had 40 Enemies in one room, not all 40 are actually allowed to attack you at once.

[844448]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

would be an improvement, and Enemies have to take turns attacking us anyways, if you had 40 Enemies in one room, not all 40 are actually allowed to attack you at once.

Wait, not all 40 are actually allowed to attack you at once? They should attack together as focus fire. Since when not all allowed to attack at once? This is not some kind of movie logic where only a few attack instead going at once

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

This difference in opinion is exactly why difficulty increase should be an option. No idea if it should grant greater rewards or how that would work but honestly my builds are good as is I would just like to use them in a challenging environment I honestly do not care it I get rewards that casual players don't. In single player game I have already aquired everything and completed every misson but I still go back and replay the game because it is fun. Options for difficulty increase and adding enemies with better skills would be great but forcing it on evertone is not the way to go in my opinion. Not everyone likes to be challenged along with having to grind for stuff endlessly. 

Options are never a bad thing cause even if it doesn't work for you it could for someone else and that is what it is there for. 

[Anduvriel]

There is a problem to make a capture fissure more cinematic/lore. You kinda chain like 10 of them, each taking just a minute or two. They did something like that with orbs and few bounties on Venus. A question, do you skip all the talks or not there? First thing the community wanted was to be able to skip the cutscenes and talks.. 

Looters have efficiency tied with their rewards system. Thats the problem with that more lore/rpg in missions. You will put window shattered cutscenes and a dogfight to get back and players will start to skip all nodes with it.. If you put a good reward behind it they will still skip them and make a different centralised farm around destroying those windows and only those.. And they will ask to be able to skip the cutscenes.. Cinematics/lore works for quest and events you don't spam in looters. 

It seems to me you want it more like Destiny 2 where enemies do matter, there is a lot of bullshyt damage coming from them and you kinda need to shoot far more into 1 enemy than in warframe. There is a lot of hiding, more tactical slower aproach etc.. Enemy AI feels kinda smarter because of that. Cause when you oneshot something its AI doesn't matter. When you have to put a clip or two it starts to be seen.

The thing is in d2 all guns are basically the same in regards of damage - the spread between best and worse is kinda small. In wf its crazy large as its dependant on scaling and mods, just compare stug to a catchmoon, both are pistols. One is meme trash, second one shots practically everything. 

It feels like you are on the same level all the time in d2. New weapons practically dont matter (after like 200h in that game i couldnt tell if the new weapon i got is an upgrade or not). You start with a pee shooter you end with a better looking pee shooter. Its boring as hell. 

Warframe does it different, you become powerful, maybe too fast and too much. When you do old content it becomes a breeze, there is nothing like that in d2. You are always scaled to enemies. They always matter. In warframe you take equinox to low missions, none matter in a large aoe, literally. 

Can you have both? Scaling of power and enemies that matter. Its extremely difficult to do. Especially after the game being out for so long. Just few interactions make thousands of possibilities, if you have thousands of interactions it creates "infinite" possibilities (no team can reliably balance this mess). Thats the sulking power creep sliping everywhere even in d2, PoE, games that want to be correctly balanced.

Warframe just pretends balance, we want to feel powerful. Thats the whole point in warframe. We made coptering they gave us bulletjumps. More, more and more. Gauss is the equivalent of Volt 2.0 and even more bullshyt level of speed. 

It creates developement problems that are not easily overcomed. Most bosses to be even remotely difficult need stages of invulnerability and damage beyond reasonable to not be cheesed in seconds. How do you want to do that to regular mobs? Nullifiers? We hate them. Moah straight dr, like in railjack? The disparity between weak, normal and meta setup is just to big, damage 2.0 is slowly tuning into a meme for a reason. 

They see this and try to work around it. Liches give starter level higher. Enemies become more potent and are (semi) difficult for non meta loadouts. Railjack is overall better balanced in terms of archwing/turrets damage and enemy scaling. How they were received?

The community perceived the railjack guns as super weak and bad, because they don't one shot enemy fighters... Liches are a mess so its hard to tell how much people liked the difficulty increase, but overall it seems community doesn't really want balance, longer more tactical aproach in warframe.. 

I would love to see some changes, Scott said they are coming again at damage 2.0, i kinda like what they did with melee 3.0 (thou melee is now Opie beyond imagination and probably deserves a tone down as a whole), i liked too shoot full clip into those fighters, but i am not really sure if i am not a really small minority.. 

[Skaleek]

On 2020-01-18 at 4:47 PM, SneakyErvin said:

I could definently see this becoming a thing with expanding empyrean. Oh the rage from people, it would be sweet.

Should have to fly back to the start of the level (outside), re-enter, and move through the level again. That would be pretty cool. Or they could do like a vacuum effect where it starts to suck you out but if you get to the console within X seconds you can stop it, and the vacuum sucks you towards the break point so you have to fight the forces to get to the console. So many possibilities that will never happen.

Can you imagine seeing grineer/corpus troops just floating out in space? With like a permanent cryo effect on them? Cool man. Or moa's with little rocket boosters re-attaching to the hull and chasing you by foot outside? Imagination going wild.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Skaleek

[Skaleek]

9 hours ago, 844448 said:

Would love it when 10 bombards/napalms/heavy gunners spamming their weapons at you

I've been perma cc'd by 3 bombards before. Not sure you want 10 to do that. Knockdown spammed for 25s~.

[SneakyErvin]

29 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Should have to fly back to the start of the level (outside), re-enter, and move through the level again. That would be pretty cool. Or they could do like a vacuum effect where it starts to suck you out but if you get to the console within X seconds you can stop it, and the vacuum sucks you towards the break point so you have to fight the forces to get to the console. So many possibilities that will never happen.

Can you imagine seeing grineer/corpus troops just floating out in space? With like a permanent cryo effect on them? Cool man. Or moa's with little rocket boosters re-attaching to the hull and chasing you by foot outside? Imagination going wild.

I'd love it!

[taiiat]

12 hours ago, 844448 said:

This is not some kind of movie logic where only a few attack instead going at once

(actually, surprise, Warframe is almost identical to that! :sweat:)

for example, if you Spawned 20 Bombards or something, only a few of them are allowed to shoot at you at any given time, the rest have to wait their turn. that's why you don't see 20 Missiles per second being shot at you.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

7 hours ago, Anduvriel said:

There is a problem to make a capture fissure more cinematic/lore. You kinda chain like 10 of them, each taking just a minute or two. They did something like that with orbs and few bounties on Venus. A question, do you skip all the talks or not there? First thing the community wanted was to be able to skip the cutscenes and talks.. 

Looters have efficiency tied with their rewards system. Thats the problem with that more lore/rpg in missions. You will put window shattered cutscenes and a dogfight to get back and players will start to skip all nodes with it.. If you put a good reward behind it they will still skip them and make a different centralised farm around destroying those windows and only those.. And they will ask to be able to skip the cutscenes.. Cinematics/lore works for quest and events you don't spam in looters. 

It seems to me you want it more like Destiny 2 where enemies do matter, there is a lot of bullshyt damage coming from them and you kinda need to shoot far more into 1 enemy than in warframe. There is a lot of hiding, more tactical slower aproach etc.. Enemy AI feels kinda smarter because of that. Cause when you oneshot something its AI doesn't matter. When you have to put a clip or two it starts to be seen.

The thing is in d2 all guns are basically the same in regards of damage - the spread between best and worse is kinda small. In wf its crazy large as its dependant on scaling and mods, just compare stug to a catchmoon, both are pistols. One is meme trash, second one shots practically everything. 

It feels like you are on the same level all the time in d2. New weapons practically dont matter (after like 200h in that game i couldnt tell if the new weapon i got is an upgrade or not). You start with a pee shooter you end with a better looking pee shooter. Its boring as hell. 

Warframe does it different, you become powerful, maybe too fast and too much. When you do old content it becomes a breeze, there is nothing like that in d2. You are always scaled to enemies. They always matter. In warframe you take equinox to low missions, none matter in a large aoe, literally. 

Can you have both? Scaling of power and enemies that matter. Its extremely difficult to do. Especially after the game being out for so long. Just few interactions make thousands of possibilities, if you have thousands of interactions it creates "infinite" possibilities (no team can reliably balance this mess). Thats the sulking power creep sliping everywhere even in d2, PoE, games that want to be correctly balanced.

Warframe just pretends balance, we want to feel powerful. Thats the whole point in warframe. We made coptering they gave us bulletjumps. More, more and more. Gauss is the equivalent of Volt 2.0 and even more bullshyt level of speed. 

It creates developement problems that are not easily overcomed. Most bosses to be even remotely difficult need stages of invulnerability and damage beyond reasonable to not be cheesed in seconds. How do you want to do that to regular mobs? Nullifiers? We hate them. Moah straight dr, like in railjack? The disparity between weak, normal and meta setup is just to big, damage 2.0 is slowly tuning into a meme for a reason. 

They see this and try to work around it. Liches give starter level higher. Enemies become more potent and are (semi) difficult for non meta loadouts. Railjack is overall better balanced in terms of archwing/turrets damage and enemy scaling. How they were received?

The community perceived the railjack guns as super weak and bad, because they don't one shot enemy fighters... Liches are a mess so its hard to tell how much people liked the difficulty increase, but overall it seems community doesn't really want balance, longer more tactical aproach in warframe.. 

I would love to see some changes, Scott said they are coming again at damage 2.0, i kinda like what they did with melee 3.0 (thou melee is now Opie beyond imagination and probably deserves a tone down as a whole), i liked too shoot full clip into those fighters, but i am not really sure if i am not a really small minority.. 

Thanks for the feedback on my questions.

To to be clear I was not really thinking of a cutscene addition or anything like that I was more thinking they would have information that was about the grineer and corpus. In a lot of games if you play a mission you can go back to it and the dialog will be the same and most rewards would be the same. In warframe the dialog is mostly the same unless you get the go ahead to leave no surviors. I am not sure what cause that exactly but you would think the information was too important to risk knowledge of us having it.

When some missions you arent put in that position is the information not as sensitive? I was thinking that the information would be on the bosses or codex entries that give information about the planet. Or information on ivara in spy missions if you hack all consoles you can get a sliver of lore on ivara just like how scans work. This can be done for other warframes too being encouraged to kill certain enemies or do certain missions to get slivers of lore on a certain aspect of the world. Nothing that would be spoil the main story of course.

In capture missons you could get a document that is giving you information about the enemies and their plans for the boss there. There could be lore in what they are doing on the planet. The story as is wont be affected by this it would be nice if all warframes got a little misson like mirage, inaros, and titania. I would be game for that but also getting lore on them by doing missons would be nice. You can max out the information of course and doing the same mission wouldn't give you anymore info on the world.

The codex scans now are just pictures with some info but nothing terribly exciting. Completing a sabotage would give you information on the ship itself and if you go to another mission a grineer officer would comment on how you messed up their ship. Maybe those missons will cause other assassins to seek you out. The stalker makes sense when he attacks but what about the other assassins like Asthma Attack guy. Lotus is all freaked out by him but when we are done we could get a message or information on who they are. We have to kill a boss to encite the stalkers attention. 

The syndicate missions should be much more involved pertaining to the beliefs of the syndicates. Like the red veil having assassination targets. It is weird that the missions for each syndicate are the same. The goals being met by group that hate each other all end in a glorified day a chucky cheese choosing the trinket you want with the tickets you got. I like the sydicate goodie shop but I would like to see more depth to the missons.

This game needs a bit more depth nothing that would be super complicated just something giving these missions more purpose. The faces of characters without masks should be at least little different. The Asian stereotype reason commented in this topic is offensive. So many games have the NPCs saying something about their daly life. Like in relays you can not even get anyone to say sup lol this is very minor of course but would be cool. The world and life of warframe needs to be expanded on as a whole. We need to feel like we have more of an effect on the world If no one defeated the ghouls would the plains be more dangerous? I honestly have never done those alerts I wonder if many people are doing them.

So in conclusion missons should unlock lore in someway about the resources the planet, the boss, warframes ect... Also syndicates should maybe have missons pertaining to their goal. Also why do they hate eachother and why do they like eachother? Simarus is the only one who has said anything about disliking a certain faction only because it was controlled by a Cephalon. Misson difficultly increase should be an option and Also better AI lol. There is so much that could be done but these are just off the top of my head ideas. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by (PS4)Scarletboy76292

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

7 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Should have to fly back to the start of the level (outside), re-enter, and move through the level again. That would be pretty cool. Or they could do like a vacuum effect where it starts to suck you out but if you get to the console within X seconds you can stop it, and the vacuum sucks you towards the break point so you have to fight the forces to get to the console. So many possibilities that will never happen.

Can you imagine seeing grineer/corpus troops just floating out in space? With like a permanent cryo effect on them? Cool man. Or moa's with little rocket boosters re-attaching to the hull and chasing you by foot outside? Imagination going wild.

I would definitely enjoy this. 😁