Forced Singleplayer hurts the Warframe Experience: a letter to DE

[DariusMcSwag]

Hello @[DE]Megan, @[DE]Steve, @[DE]Rebecca, @[DE]Pablo, @[DE]Bear, @[DE]Marcus, and fellow Tenno,

Warframe, for many, is a cooperative game. Players log countless hours because they can enjoy this amazing experience with friends. One of the main reasons I keep coming back to this game is to keep in contact with old friends and family, some of which haven't played in months. Its fun to play with friends cooperatively, and you (DE Dev Team) yourselves are starting to push for more cooperative content like Railjack.

So why do some missions force singleplayer?

Sure, story quests in Warframe are focused around our Operator and our individual role in this universe, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the quests themselves have to force singleplayer. Forced Singleplayer contradicts what Warframe is at its core: a cooperative game.

Ever since The Second Dream, players have wanted a more story focused Warframe, with cutscenes and cool new tidbits of lore. You gave us something that we hadn't seen before. This quest is undeniably the best in Warframe's history, but everything after The Second Dream has either been met with mediocre responses from the players or downright hatred for the quest itself (Golden Maw in The War Within). So why is this?

The War Within quest was not as well received as TSD. Why? It wasn't a lack of story or cutscenes or new content. For the first time in Warframe history there was a Forced Singleplayer experience. I remember jumping onto Warframe that day to play with my squad, only to be disappointed that we couldn't play through it together. This detracted from the core element of the game. Many of the players that were expecting to do this brand new experience together, with their friends, were instead forced to do something completely different. I guarantee you that the Golden Maw portion of the quest might have been actually fun if players could fool around with their newfound Void Powers together. The same goes for every main story quest following TWW. If players get on to play Warframe with their friends, why would they waste their time doing a Forced Singleplayer story quest?

Players like to play Warframe their way, and for some this means only playing with friends and family. By making quests Forced Singleplayer, you are telling them that their way of playing is wrong.

Lets look at an example: someone has last played since TWW and they are logging in today. They are interested in the story of Warframe, but don't know what to do next. They ask for assistance from one of their friends who has done the quest before, and their friend says that they will help them. However, the friend tells the player that those missions are Forced Singleplayer, and that they can't play with them. The player just wants to have fun with their friends, and since they don't have the time, they will not play the story quests.

This has happened to me multiple times. My father, for example, wants to do the story quests, but can't because he isn't as skilled with videogames as I am. He only enjoys playing Warframe with me, and doesn't have the time to do these Forced Singleplayer missions by himself. Why would someone waste their time on a Forced Singleplayer story quest if their primary reason for playing is to have fun with friends? One of my clanmates refused to do the opening quest to Fortuna because he didn't want to waste an hour of his time playing by himself when he could be enjoying the rest of Warframe with his friends.

So what is the solution? From a player's perspective its quite simple. The Second Dream had the answer all along. Instead of Forced Singleplayer quests, make the cutscenes and Light-Or-Dark-O-Meter an individual sequence with the rest of the quests cooperative. During cutscenes only your Operator is displayed, but the actual gameplay of the quest allows for up to a whole squad. Other games do similar things to this, most notably the Halo series. Halo is focused around The Master Chief, a single soldier, but the cooperative campaign allows for 4 Chiefs at once in the same mission. Warframe could take a similar approach and make their story quests fun and memorable for the right reasons. This doesn't mean that the quests themselves will require a squad, but will have the option for one. If you still prefer to do the quests singleplayer, you can still do that.

Please reconsider the Forced Singleplayer quests. Those who enjoy playing the quests Singleplayer don't get harmed in this process, and it only makes the rest of Warframe stronger by allowing others to help each other through cooperation. Everyone here wins.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I hope that 2020 will be a great year for you all.

Best,

A fellow Tenno

[TearsOfTomorrow]

No matter how hard you try to spin your personal liking as something the whole playerbase shares, at the end of the day it's just that: a personal liking. No amount of "arguments" or "evidence" you provide will ever change this fact: that you're talking about what you, personally, like. You know other people who share said liking? That's beyond the point: it's still a personal liking.

I for example prefer playing solo, and I know as many people who agree with me as you do that agree with you. Your personal liking is not more important than ours. 

So please stop pestering the devs to try and get them to cater to your personal liking. They have much more important things to do, like for example fixing the ACTUAL problems this game has.

[Xaero]

2 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

I for example prefer playing solo, and I know as many people who agree with me as you do that agree with you. Your personal liking is not more important than ours. 

Though it's not like OP asks about removing "solo" toggle, right?

[gluih]

4 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Though it's not like OP asks about removing "solo" toggle, right?

The point is really, that the OP is talking about something, that probably affects a tiny part of the player base.

[DariusMcSwag]

8 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

No matter how hard you try to spin your personal liking as something the whole playerbase shares, at the end of the day it's just that: a personal liking. No amount of "arguments" or "evidence" you provide will ever change this fact: that you're talking about what you, personally, like. You know other people who share said liking? That's beyond the point: it's still a personal liking.

I for example prefer playing solo, and I know as many people who agree with me as you do that agree with you. Your personal liking is not more important than ours. 

So please stop pestering the devs to try and get them to cater to your personal liking. They have much more important things to do, like for example fixing the ACTUAL problems this game has.

Im glad you enjoy playing solo. Continue to play Warframe as you see fit. Removing Forced Singleplayer does not effect your ability to play solo, it merely allows others freedom to play how they would like to. Everyone wins when Forced Singleplayer is no longer required.

[Xaero]

Just now, gluih said:

The point is really, that the OP is talking about something, that probably affects a tiny part of the player base.

Aaand..?

[TearsOfTomorrow]

5 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Though it's not like OP asks about removing "solo" toggle, right?

They're still demanding that content be reworked to cater to their personal liking. Reworking content takes time, effort and resources, and right now the devs have a laundry list of things that require such investment and are MUCH more important/urgent.

Even if the changes requested by OP are such that they could be done in 5 seconds, those are still 5 seconds spent for the benefit of a single individual, when they could have been spent for the benefit of everyone.

That's my issue with entitlement.

[Xaero]

2 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

They're still demanding that content be reworked to cater to their personal liking. Reworking content takes time, effort and resources, and right now the devs have a laundry list of things that require such investment and are MUCH more important/urgent.

Ok, could you quote the part where OP demands DE to put fixing and expanding Empyrean on hold until they implement OP's suggestion? I can't find it in this wall of text.

7 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

Even if the changes requested by OP are such that they could be done in 5 seconds, those are still 5 seconds spent for the benefit of a single individual, when they could have been spent for the benefit of everyone.

That's my issue with entitlement.

I guess you're one of those who are entitled to decide which suggestions benefit everyone or a single individual. Can I expect to see you shutting down every topic with suggestions you don't find beneficial for everyone?

[DariusMcSwag]

3 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

They're still demanding that content be reworked to cater to their personal liking. Reworking content takes time, effort and resources, and right now the devs have a laundry list of things that require such investment and are MUCH more important/urgent.

Even if the changes requested by OP are such that they could be done in 5 seconds, those are still 5 seconds spent for the benefit of a single individual, when they could have been spent for the benefit of everyone.

That's my issue with entitlement.

This letter was not a demand. I am not entitled to anything, and I dont expect them to drop everything and cater to one person's needs.

This letter was also not directed at you or others that choose to play singleplayer. You get the choice to play the way you want to.

Shouldnt others?

[TearsOfTomorrow]

2 minutes ago, DariusMcSwag said:

Shouldnt others?

Not if doing so requires a dev team to change their product just for your sake.

[Xaero]

1 minute ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

Not if doing so requires a dev team to change their product just for your sake.

By your logic, DE should just lock all their feedback threads.

[DariusMcSwag]

2 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

Not if doing so requires a dev team to change their product just for your sake.

Its not just for my sake. I have had this problem happen to me multiple times over the past couple of years, even to the point where my clanmates don't want to play anymore because they can't enjoy the story with their friends.

Everything else in Warframe has the option to play either singleplayer or with others, and I believe from my own experience that it would benefit all players if the story worked the same way.

Warframe is an ever evolving game that changes constantly. Changing their product for the sake of the players is how they got here today.

[TearsOfTomorrow]

4 minutes ago, Xaero said:

By your logic, DE should just lock all their feedback threads.

That would be a major step towards improving this forum, yes. Not all of them, but most.

Feedback on specific issues, such as "we implemented this, let us know which parts of it have bugs"? That's absolutely necessary. But "feedback" as in "remove this bit I don't like" or "expand this bit I like" or "make that 'frame stronger because I want to play it" or "make this 'frame weaker because it overshadows the one I wanna play", that's the kind of stuff this forum can do without.

Of the hundreds of hours you spent playing this game, 15 minutes required you to play solo: that's not an issue so big that you should tag the whole dev team over it.

[Thrymm]

3 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

That would be a major step towards improving this forum, yes. Not all of them, but most.

Feedback on specific issues, such as "we implemented this, let us know which parts of it have bugs"? That's absolutely necessary. But "feedback" as in "remove this bit I don't like" or "expand this bit I like" or "make that 'frame stronger because I want to play it" or "make this 'frame weaker because it overshadows the one I wanna play", that's the kind of stuff this forum can do without.

Of the hundreds of hours you spent playing this game, 15 minutes required you to play solo: that's not an issue so big that you should tag the whole dev team over it.

Except you're wrong.

This game you're defending?  The one with the content that you think doesn't need feedback such as "we like this, don't like that, remove this, add that?".....yeah, our feedback over the years made that game.  Name an item, virtually any item, and a person that's been around that long can tell you how our feedback molded it into what it is today(yes, for better AND worse). 

It would blow your mind how much of this game has changed or been tailored toward the preferences and likings of those that have played it, and the feedback those people have given.  Considering you're not in the bug report forum, you'd do well to remember that every last post here has been invited for the very reasons you seem to think shouldn't exist.

Now on to the original post:  I sympathize because I'm the opposite and despise forced grouping events in games, and I don't see why not, though I'm not sure how they'd go about incorporating the ability to play these items with others, considering how cutscene heavy they are.

[DariusMcSwag]

25 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

Of the hundreds of hours you spent playing this game, 15 minutes required you to play solo: that's not an issue so big that you should tag the whole dev team over it.

I tagged members of the Dev Team as it was a letter addressed to them. The forums is the best place to provide feedback, and since this letter was more formal in nature I decided to address some of them in hopes they see it and pass it to the rest of the Dev Team who are not on the forums.

Im glad you could complete the War Within, Octavias Anthem, Chains of Harrow, Sayas Vigil, Vox Solaris, Apostacy Prologue, The Sacrifice, Mask of the Revenant, and the Chimera Prologue in 15 minutes. It often takes longer for others.

13 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

Now on to the original post:  I sympathize because I'm the opposite and despise forced grouping events in games, and I don't see why not, though I'm not sure how they'd go about incorporating the ability to play these items with others, considering how cutscene heavy they are.

I also dont like Forced Group events, since its the same as a Forced Singleplayer experience. The quests themselves wouldnt have to be altered, only your Operator would be shown in the cutscene. Gameplay would just incorporate others. Quests like the Chimera Prologue might have to stay singleplayer only, since they are stealth focused and not combat focused.

Edited January 29, 2020 by DariusMcSwag

[TearsOfTomorrow]

20 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

yeah, our feedback over the years made that game

Except you're wrong.

The devs made that game. With decisions which sometimes met the feedback of the players, sometimes didn't. And in both cases there were people who whined about it, on this forum, on Reddit and on Youtube, because guess what? Whining is what the internet is for, attempting to please everyone on it is a lost cause by definition. So please spare me the self-important rethoric.

It the devs were to make a change based on nothing but a post like this one, the next day the forum would be full of topics complaining about it. Even objectively needed things that had been requested by a huge amount of people for a very long time, such as the Ember rework, are not immune to this, I saw at least five topics in which people demanded she be "reverted", often with no elaboration on the point nor arguments to support it. Because that's what people on the internet do: they seek attention and try to have their way.

Hence my original point: objective feedback on things that don't work as intended is one thing, but the devs should not concern themselves with personal likings. Thankfully they mostly haven't so far. Hopefully they still won't in the future.

Edited January 29, 2020 by TearsOfTomorrow

[JawNuts]

I feel you. Back in the day, my girlfriend and I planned doing the War within on some evening and didn't know its a solo thing. We just ended up telling each other what's happening and trying to sync the events via discord.

Hope DE can do non-solo cinematic quests in the future (ehem New war). We are all tenno after all. It's not like there's only one of us.

[DariusMcSwag]

1 minute ago, JawNuts said:

I feel you. Back in the day, my girlfriend and I planned doing the War within on some evening and didn't know its a solo thing. We just ended up telling each other what's happening and trying to sync the events via discord.

Hope DE can do non-solo cinematic quests in the future (ehem New war). We are all tenno after all. It's not like there's only one of us.

I agree. My squad had to help one of our own because he couldnt hear the Golden Maw and kept dying without knowing what to do. I don't expect the old quests to get changed anytime soon, but hopefully this letter will help them moving forward with new quests.

[TearsOfTomorrow]

20 minutes ago, JawNuts said:

(ehem New war)

New War will most likely be a co-op affair. Do you know why? Because IT'S GONNA BE A WAR. We're gonna be faced with an army of enemies, so IT MAKES SENSE that we would bring an army of our own.

War Within, on the other hand, was an intimate affair. It was about you coming to terms with your fractured memories while a villain attempted to hijack your body. It's a battle in the center of YOUR mind: how could it possibly MAKE SENSE for anybody else to be there?

That's the difference. It's not about personal preference, it's just about making sense. So to clarify my earlier point: I'm not saying that the OP doesn't have the right to request things. What I'm saying is that a request, especially if addressed to the whole dev team, should be rooted in objective facts and on "let's look at what makes sense" kind of consideration, as opposed to personal likings.

Because, again, there are as many personal likings as there are people, and attempting to create a situation where ALL of them are simultaneously pleased is a wild goose chase. One the devs can't afford to spare resources and energy for.

Edited January 29, 2020 by TearsOfTomorrow

[KingOfRisen]

2 hours ago, DariusMcSwag said:

The War Within quest was not as well received as TSD.

I haven't had many discussions with others about quests, but from what I've heard people usually prefer TWW over TSD. So I don't think this statement is true, but maybe my small sample size is just skewing things.

2 hours ago, DariusMcSwag said:

For the first time in Warframe history there was a Forced Singleplayer experience.

This is where I'm getting kinda confused. What makes you think TSD didn't have forced solo moments? It absolutely did, the mission with the quest's iconic cutscene in the Reservoir (as well as the segment in your Orbiter afterwards) has to be done alone. Like other story quests, the more generic missions in the beginning can be done in a group, but when you get to the more significant story parts and to missions that include cutscenes, you have to play solo.

The wiki also mentions this in a short note in the mission's walkthrough section:

"Save the Reservoir: Grimaldi, Lua. This mission cannot be performed with a group, and must be done solo."

[DariusMcSwag]

17 minutes ago, KingOfRisen said:

I haven't had many discussions with others about quests, but from what I've heard people usually prefer TWW over TSD. So I don't think this statement is true, but maybe my small sample size is just skewing things.

This is where I'm getting kinda confused. What makes you think TSD didn't have forced solo moments? It absolutely did, the mission with the quest's iconic cutscene in the Reservoir (as well as the segment in your Orbiter afterwards) has to be done alone. Like other story quests, the more generic missions in the beginning can be done in a group, but when you get to the more significant story parts and to missions that include cutscenes, you have to play solo.

The wiki also mentions this in a short note in the mission's walkthrough section:

"Save the Reservoir: Grimaldi, Lua. This mission cannot be performed with a group, and must be done solo."

The Second Dream did have Forced Singleplayer moments, but getting to that point could be completed with a squad. Only a small percentage of the overall quest was Singleplayer only, and it was mostly a cutscene.

21 minutes ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

New War will most likely be a co-op affair. Do you know why? Because IT'S GONNA BE A WAR. We're gonna be faced with an army of enemies, so IT MAKES SENSE that we would bring an army of our own.

War Within, on the other hand, was an intimate affair. It was about you coming to terms with your fractured memories while a villain attempted to hijack your body. It's a battle in the center of YOUR mind: how could it possibly MAKE SENSE for anybody else to be there?

That's the difference. It's not about personal preference, it's just about making sense. So to clarify my earlier point: I'm not saying that the OP doesn't have the right to request things. What I'm saying is that a request, especially if addressed to the whole dev team, should be rooted in objective facts and on "let's look at what makes sense" kind of consideration, as opposed to personal likings.

Because, again, there are as many personal likings as there are people, and attempting to create a situation where ALL of them are simultaneously pleased is a wild goose chase. One the devs can't afford to spare resources and energy for.

I never said that the quests should be retroactively redone to allow for other players. That would be nicer for newer players. Im saying that quests going into 2020 should not force players to play singleplayer and should adapt the Halo esque approach when dealing with multiple players in an individualized way.

In the end, the reason to play Warframe is to have fun. Things don't necessarily have to make sense in order to be fun. The Co op Halo example is a good reference for having fun with multiple friends even though it doesnt make sense for there to be 4 Master Chiefs running around.

Games are allowed to stretch the rules of making sense as long as the output is player enjoyment. If you sacrifice player enjoyment for the sake of making sense, you don't have a functional game.

[IamLoco]

It would completely contradict the story if we could simply bring a full squad to the 2nd dream, war within, man in the wall etc. quest.

It would also screw over the balance and most likely eradicate the learning process. These are the quests where we learn how to use operator powers and how we fight Kuva Guardians, etc.

If we could play those missions in coop, new players would be left behind while more experienced players could do the challenges in no time. And then you encounter your first Kuva Guardian in a kuva mission and have no clue how to defeat them.

Edited January 29, 2020 by IamLoco

[gluih]

1 hour ago, Xaero said:

Aaand..?

And let's summarize:

OP's dad and clanmates/ friends don't like doing forced solo quests and/or can't complete them.

Proposed solution: Do not make forced solo quests in the future.

This makes sense, because warframe is generally group focused and even Halo allows for multiple players in the campaign.

 

The rest is empty claims like

2 hours ago, DariusMcSwag said:

This quest is undeniably the best in Warframe's history, but everything after The Second Dream has either been met with mediocre responses from the players or downright hatred for the quest itself (Golden Maw in The War Within).

and overly dramatic language like

2 hours ago, DariusMcSwag said:

The Second Dream had the answer all along.

Btw the solution wasn't even part of the OP. It wasn't exactly obvious, what the expectation was there.
So the whole post could have been around three lines and also could have done without randomly tagging the dev team (although this might not actually have any effect anyway).

I personally don't care if quests are solo only or not. It makes sense, that there would coop in quests as well, but that's really up to the creator of the quest and what they want the quest to be.
I would argue, that there are more important issues, when it comes to making this game more coop-friendly. You can largely solo the game, so most of the time you are really play alongside each other and not with each other. Always just making the game faster also doesn't help here and I don't think, that most players really enjoy the game that way.

Btw sounds like an awesome dad. I hope @DariusMcSwagyou appreciate what he is doing.

[DariusMcSwag]

7 hours ago, IamLoco said:

It would completely contradict the story if we could simply bring a full squad to the 2nd dream, war within, man in the wall etc. quest.

It would also screw over the balance and most likely eradicate the learning process. These are the quests where we learn how to use operator powers and how we fight Kuva Guardians, etc.

If we could play those missions in coop, new players would be left behind while more experienced players could do the challenges in no time. And then you encounter your first Kuva Guardian in a kuva mission and have no clue how to defeat them.

This would be true if the players were playing in public matches. A solution would be to have story quests limited to Friends/Invite for a cooperative experience.

The learning experience would benefit from cooperative play. Being able to experience and see what others are doing would allow the players to learn together.

Lets look at the Golden Maw portion of The War Within as an example.

During this part of the quest the player learns how to use Void Cloak and Void Dash. Originally in The War Within, players learn through trial and error, figuring out the best way to utilize their newfound power. If the player makes a mistake, they are instantly killed and sent back to the last checkpoint. This process is repeated until they exit the cave and escape the Golden Maw. This process helps to teach the player how to use Void Cloak and Void Dash through negative reinforcement. The game offers no explanation for what the player did wrong, and the player might not be inclined to use Void Dash or Void Cloak again in other missions.

However, if we then add another player to the experience without changing the original mission, both players learn how to use Void Cloak and Void Dash through cooperative positive reinforcement. The player from before still experiences the negative reinforcement from the instant failures, but is able to see where the other player is succeeding and where the other player is failing. Together, they learn from each others actions and positively reinforce the desired outcome of Void Cloak and Void Dash. In extreme cases where a player is incapable of completing the task due to control issues, bugs, or glitches, another player might be able to help the other to succeed and complete the quest. Adding another player to the equation increases the likelihood of both players succeeding, which would improve the experience as a whole.

6 hours ago, gluih said:

And let's summarize:

OP's dad and clanmates/ friends don't like doing forced solo quests and/or can't complete them.

Proposed solution: Do not make forced solo quests in the future.

This makes sense, because warframe is generally group focused and even Halo allows for multiple players in the campaign.

 

The rest is empty claims like

and overly dramatic language like

Btw the solution wasn't even part of the OP. It wasn't exactly obvious, what the expectation was there.
So the whole post could have been around three lines and also could have done without randomly tagging the dev team (although this might not actually have any effect anyway).

I personally don't care if quests are solo only or not. It makes sense, that there would coop in quests as well, but that's really up to the creator of the quest and what they want the quest to be.
I would argue, that there are more important issues, when it comes to making this game more coop-friendly. You can largely solo the game, so most of the time you are really play alongside each other and not with each other. Always just making the game faster also doesn't help here and I don't think, that most players really enjoy the game that way.

 I debated whether to go the simple post route, but decided not to since it might become misconstrued as a demand which was not my intent. I wasn't sure how best to tag the Dev Team, since a general DE Dev account doesn't exist, so I decided to tag those who are connected to player experience and feedback. Perhaps this letter would have been better in a physical format and not on the forums, but it has been interesting to see the responses of other players. From the perspective of my clan and those that I play with I have seen a decline in player enjoyment, which has been attributed to forced singleplayer experiences as well as RNG, time gates, grind, etc. We are not the majority, however I believed that our experiences should be applied as usable feedback to make Warframe a better experience for everyone.

6 hours ago, gluih said:

Btw sounds like an awesome dad. I hope @DariusMcSwagyou appreciate what he is doing.

He is, and he does his best with what he can. He enjoys playing Warframe with me, since we don't get the opportunity to see each other often, but he struggles sometimes by himself. I can't be there to help guide him with what to do, and since a majority of quests have recently leaned towards singleplayer, he is finding it more difficult to play.

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

Unless your gear completely sucks, TWW shouldn't take more than two hours. Same for the Sacrifice, etc.