On death, Warframe incentivizes me to not help my teammates

[(PSN)Unstar]

So I'm in a group in Empyrean, I'm flying in my Archwing, I die.  For whatever reason, nobody manages to revive me.  That's a bummer.

Here's where the problem happens: the game tells me I can get back up again, but only if I sacrifice a portion of my affinity.  Do you know how much I want that affinity so I can raise my Intrinsics?  I want it a lot.  I've never wanted affinity more in this game.

Presented with that choice, many players might choose to just sit out the rest of the mission and let their teammates finish.  And as much as I might dislike it, I can't fault that choice - after all, the game is giving the player that binary choice, suggesting that either of the two outcomes is valid.

And I think that sucks for everyone.  It means that now that player isn't helping the rest of the team because if they do they'll be punished.  It also means they're not picking themselves up and trying again so they can learn from their mistakes and improve at the game.

I think this would be super easy to fix: just take the affinity away right when a player dies.  In other words, make affinity loss a punishment for dying, not a punishment for reviving.  This will make it so that once a player has died, they have nothing more to lose.  In fact, it's almost a no-brainer that they should get back up again because the mission will be done faster, they'll gain more affinity, etc.

Anyway, thanks for reading and considering my feedback!

[sir_deadlock]

You make a valid point in observing where the incentive is.

It makes me wonder what the motivation of the devs is on this.

I'm reminded of one film reviewer talking about zombies in films and saying he misses the days when zombies were slow and falling apart. These days you've got zombies that rush over to targets and pull their targets apart like they're made out of dough.

What is death suppose to accomplish here?

[kapn655321]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

I think this would be super easy to fix: just take the affinity away right when a player dies.  In other words, make affinity loss a punishment for dying, not a punishment for reviving.  This will make it so that once a player has died, they have nothing more to lose.  In fact, it's almost a no-brainer that they should get back up again because the mission will be done faster, they'll gain more affinity, etc.

My first thought is that, if this happens, people are Really gonna get Crazy mad about the insta-kills in this game.

While you do lose a portion on death, you may also be able to make back more for reviving. Very interesting point, though.

Edited February 8, 2020 by kapn655321

[Tyreaus]

32 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

My first thought is that, if this happens, people are Really gonna get Crazy mad about the insta-kills in this game.

Personally, I don't see this as a problem.

[kapn655321]

2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Personally, I don't see this as a problem.

I agree. Making that a point of focus to be remedied sounds good to me.

Just means they won't be able to fix the one without the other.

Edited February 8, 2020 by kapn655321

[grindbert]

this is a non-issue. just get your exp somewhere else.

Edited February 8, 2020 by grindbert

[taiiat]

please also consider that if you stay AFK dead the rest of the Mission you will not gain any further XP from your death point either.
it's pretty hard to not gain more XP from being in the rest of the Mission than what you lost already was.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

make affinity loss a punishment for dying, not a punishment for reviving.

hmm, perhaps.

Edited February 8, 2020 by taiiat

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Better. Make self reviving actually punish all allies with affinity loss if they are within affinity rangex2. 

The big problem tends to be not that you are punished for going down, it is that your "allies" are not punished equally for letting it happen. There's no shortage of the toxic tryhard group who will make literally no effort to pick you up if you go down, They get punished for letting it happen, they'll make more of an effort or find them selves forced to play solo. 

The strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack. You must be strong, but without allies you are nothing. People who are not willing to play as a team should not feel like their behavior does not have consequence, if you're close enough to pick up an ally, and you don't, you should also have consequences, limit punitive action to the first three downs. After that it should be clear either the person built their frame wrong or is idle, and your responsibility is nullified. 

Edit. Huh, i stand corrected, they seem to have fixed their idiotic nerf. good. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx

[NinjaZeku]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Better. Make self reviving actually punish all allies with affinity loss if they are within affinity rangex2. 

That's a terrible suggestion, not least for the griefing potential.

5 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

The big problem tends to be not that you are punished for going down, it is that your "allies" are not punished equally for letting it happen.
There's no shortage of the toxic tryhard group who will make literally no effort to pick you up if you go down

I don't think I've ever (well, maybe once or twice over the years) encountered toxicity like this.

It's much more likely that people have their own hide to worry about / just don't pay enough attention
when in more heated / particle-rich encounters, I've now and then missed a revive-awaiting player / failed to reach them in time, it happens.

[LVVS]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx:

Better. Make self reviving actually punish all allies with affinity loss if they are within affinity rangex2. 
 

if teammates gonna be punished, when they are in affinity range but refuse to revive, or even are a bit late fot that, i think it is unfair, ..because : When the downed tenno revives himself instantly, and they get punished, although they wanted to help!

 

Why not: reward reviving with "affinity-boost for 30 sec" or so?, rather than punish "not reviving" with loss of affinity. And more so: Increase the gained affinity per revive as more teammates revive syncroniously? That way the affinity boost becomes 45 sec (2 mates) or 60 sec (revived by 3 mates), but the revived warframe does not get the bonus, so becoming downed is just "not rewarded",  but still not "punished" ..!.. but that are just some crazy thoughts

 

(yet then again: i see the flaw here, it could become a thing, to let  a teammate die, just to gain that boost for oneself / the three remaining.... 

 Really difficult matter for instance ...

 

But the idea with instant affinity-loss on death rather than affinity-loss for a revive is a pretty good idea. I agree with Unstar !

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by nyxtasy

[LVVS]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Unstar:

So I'm in a group in Empyrean, I'm flying in my Archwing, I die.  [...]  Do you know how much I want that affinity so I can raise my Intrinsics?  I want it a lot.  I've never wanted affinity more in this game.

[...] In other words, make affinity loss a punishment for dying, not a punishment for reviving.  This will make it so that once a player has died, they have nothing more to lose.  In fact, it's almost a no-brainer that they should get back up again because the mission will be done faster, they'll gain more affinity, etc.

[...]

Once again: i totally agree on the affinity-loss on death, not on revive!

 

... I have the feeling, that clicking that revive button  in a non empyrean-mission  is not that big of a deal? Becaue for me, it is not (as well..?)

At some point, i'd rather just want to play the game and don't think about loss of affinity....

 

I can relate to the feeling: Being lost in space, time is ticking down, and i know for shure, nobody will come and get me, not neccessarily, because they are afraid of dying too, but because they keep the RJ running and stuff and are too busy ...

 

My suggestion would be this: You are able to teleport back to RJ with your geartool (can't remember the name atm^^), and teammates on the RJ get the message "Tenno needs first aid" ..BUT: You have to have used that "teleport back"  shortly before you got downed, not post mortem ! How about that?

Because oh how many times i saw the end coming for me - and managed to use the "telport back" in panick just in that very moment of death xD.

[vomder]

I can't say I've seen anyone just stay dead instead of reviving in this game since players only had 4 revives a day. Is the affinity hit for reviving really that bad?

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

12 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

That's a terrible suggestion, not least for the griefing potential.

I don't think I've ever (well, maybe once or twice over the years) encountered toxicity like this.

It's much more likely that people have their own hide to worry about / just don't pay enough attention
when in more heated / particle-rich encounters, I've now and then missed a revive-awaiting player / failed to reach them in time, it happens.

you appear to play on pc? ... Console is a dying market for warframe which is why so many people want them to enable cross save... So they can get OFF console BECAUSE it's dying. I see this literally all the time. It's not about "your own skin" because all you ever have to do to revive someone is go into operator mode, activate void mode to become literally invincible, and revive your ally at no risk. It is common place to expected for people to just ignore you going down and I often experience players teabagging other players instead of picking them up. 

I will concede, that pc is a less toxic market, mostly because pc players typically spent a lot of money on their rig, which means they take things more seriously.