Is the Mutagen Sample problem going to get addressed this decade?

[MobyTheDuck]

It still only drops from two places, Eris and Derelict.

Derelict still doesnt has matchmaking, so you cant freely go there to farm it.

Its still a rare resource in Eris, while every other sample is common/uncommon on every other planet.

Hema is still THE least researched clan item in the game (probably along the Ignis Wraith due being limited to that one event).

The 100x Health restore is just as bad as the Hema research with Mutagen samples.

You guys said you would take the Sibear and Hema research problems into account for future items.

When people asked for WEEKS for a change, you guys went "We cant do anything because it would be unfair to the few few few clans that got it, tough luck go farm derelict lol"

Clans that built it didnt want ANYONE to suffer what they did.

Railjack costs got refunded becase only a few people built it.

We just had a big 'revision' update.

So I ask, is the Mutagen Sample problem going to get addressed before 2030?

Edited March 8, 2020 by MobyTheDuck

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

I'm willing to bet that it'll also be obtainable from that new infested space mass DE showcased on a recent devstream. It'll be a good while until it happens though.

[MobyTheDuck]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

I'm willing to bet that it'll also be obtainable from that new infested space mass DE showcased on a recent devstream. It'll be a good while until it happens though.

So our only hope it to wait years to a new place that might drop them, or for some dev to take one hour of his time to change a few numbers and the variables of a single item.

Great.

[TheGrimCorsair]

You can go to the Derelict to farm them whenever you want.

Just build a key and go.

[MobyTheDuck]

7 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

You can go to the Derelict to farm them whenever you want.

Just build a key and go.

Pretty much the reason they gave to not fix anything 3 years ago.

[DrivaMain]

inb4 "MuH HEmA InVeStMeNT" Crowd defending the grind.

Make Mutagen Samples a common resource instead of uncommon/rare and every clan that researched the hema got their cost refund into their clan vault.

[DarthIronclad]

tbh they can make it drop more often on eris and/or make them able to drop from dark sector missions...

 

also grind for hema is prob worser than grinding for a full set of MK3 Railjack stuff,,,

Edited March 8, 2020 by DarthIronclad

[Braneman]

1 hour ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

You can go to the Derelict to farm them whenever you want.

Just build a key and go.

It's a co-op game, I'd prefer if I was just sitting around killing enemies for a single resource to just drop in with a group in the derelict rather than having to put together a specialized group or be alone in a co-op game farming a single resource.

[Voltage]

5 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

inb4 "MuH HEmA InVeStMeNT" Crowd defending the grind.

I don't care about my samples, but I do care about the game. I defend the grind because I like how the Hema was added. I was hoping Hema would set a precedent that dojo research would be a goal to reach for new items, not a trivial 3 day timer that gets started instantly. Though that was wishful thinking on my part as this playerbase praises DE when they can play the game less for the same reward or throw pitchforks when they need to grind just a bit more for something (Arcanes, 100x blueprints Mutagen Samples cost, Hema, etc.)

Warframe needs more grind. Grind is the core loop of the game. The reason the game is getting stale in my opinion is because DE keeps adding grind and then backtracking and undermining their own systems.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Voltage

[Jaysus41]

Probably not for two reasons, money and stubbornness. But mainly money. The Nidus Collection is probably their most bought pack on the market simply because nobody wants to deal with that unreasonable grind (and because Nidus isn't that much better since nobody in their right mind plays Infested Salvage religiously) They were probably fishing around for the player base's upper limit and oh boy did they find it.

The "respect the grind" malarkey is total BS. We know it, they know it.

I'm right there with you though, my clan and I did it and I would only wish that slog on my worst enemies and telemarketers

[Steel_Rook]

5 hours ago, Voltage said:

Warframe needs more grind. Grind is the core loop of the game. The reason the game is getting stale in my opinion is because DE keeps adding grind and then backtracking and undermining their own systems.

Warframe does not need more grind. The community has made this abundantly clear across at least the two years I was here and "the grind" is the reason that crops up nearly every time people criticise Warframe. It swept the 2019 polls for "what to you like the least in Warframe." Grind is an anti-consumer game design element with the only purpose of pushing players to play the game past the point of burnout. It absolutely is not "the core loop of the game." The statement "Warframe is a grindy game" is not an excuse, but the definition of a problem. Indeed, DE themselves have committed to reducing grind, at least officially. Warframe is getting "stale" because Grind is predominantly what DE have been additng. They've added very little in the way of new content, just more redundant items to grind for.

Warframe's core gameplay loop is its actual combat system. DE seem to have remembered this recently, hence why we're seeing these major, sweeping changes. It's an attempt to make combat worth engaging in and more of our arsenal worth using. Now if they'd also care to work on making mission objectives less like a mobile game, we might be getting somewhere.

 

10 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Make Mutagen Samples a common resource instead of uncommon/rare and every clan that researched the hema got their cost refund into their clan vault.

Detonite Ampules and Fieldron Samples drop from any planet with Grineer and Corpus on it, respectively, seemingly as Common drops. So I say make Mutagen Samples a Common drop for Eris, the Orokin Derelict, all Lost Sectors and in general all missions against the Infested. I don't expect any refunds of anything, just make Mutagen Samples less of a specific, insular grind. It's silly that I have ~1000 Mutagen Samples and nearly 20 000 of both Detonite Ampules and Fieldron Samples.

[Ham_Grenabe]

I think the mutagen sample problem is, like Uncle Ben staying dead, one of those rules that can never be broken. 

[Voltage]

6 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Warframe does not need more grind. The community has made this abundantly clear across at least the two years I was here and "the grind" is the reason that crops up nearly every time people criticise Warframe. It swept the 2019 polls for "what to you like the least in Warframe." Grind is an anti-consumer game design element with the only purpose of pushing players to play the game past the point of burnout. It absolutely is not "the core loop of the game." The statement "Warframe is a grindy game" is not an excuse, but the definition of a problem. Indeed, DE themselves have committed to reducing grind, at least officially. Warframe is getting "stale" because Grind is predominantly what DE have been additng. They've added very little in the way of new content, just more redundant items to grind for.

Warframe's core gameplay loop is its actual combat system. DE seem to have remembered this recently, hence why we're seeing these major, sweeping changes. It's an attempt to make combat worth engaging in and more of our arsenal worth using. Now if they'd also care to work on making mission objectives less like a mobile game, we might be getting somewhere.

I disagree. We play the combat and most of the content to get somewhere. Whether we want a shiny Kuva weapon, a Prime Warframe, a new Amp, Credits to buy things, Platinum to trade and buy things, more cosmetics, etc. There is an objective in the combat. Sure, there is absolutely no issue with playing the combat because it's fun, but combat has meaning to it when associated to progression. The Old Void was a good example of combat and investment having meaning. The more you optimized and increased the power of your loadout, the more Prime parts you got. The same applies to these days too. You get better with your loadout and become faster at what loot you are trying to get.

When you allow "Grind" to be things you least like in the game, it is a loaded question. If I asked anyone if they rather get paid 20 bucks an hour or 25 bucks an hour for the same effort, you would obviously ask for the increased pay. That is exactly what a question like "Do you dislike grind the most?" asks. 

I firmly believe the core loop is grind, and it is a structural feature this game has had for years. The difference over the years is the type of gameplay DE has catered towards delivering. This is why Railjack is outstanding visually and shallow mechanically. The same goes for Kuva Liches. Most players want more for less, and DE is giving them exactly that. Just look at Nightwave. It is a completely trivial system now. The only way to not get Umbral Forma every season/intermission is if you never bothered logging in anyways. This is also why we get content drought in the first place. Systems that take a long time to progress through are frowned upon.

[Steel_Rook]

24 minutes ago, Voltage said:

When you allow "Grind" to be things you least like in the game, it is a loaded question. If I asked anyone if they rather get paid 20 bucks an hour or 25 bucks an hour for the same effort, you would obviously ask for the increased pay. That is exactly what a question like "Do you dislike grind the most?" asks. 

Yeah, but gaming is not a job. I don't play games to be paid for my time. I pay money to play games, with the expectation of getting entertainment out of them. The moment I start picking my gameplay activities based on how much I'm being paid is the moment I have to admit I'm burnt out and go play another game. If Warframe isn't fun in the here and now, then it's not worth my time or my money. No amount of "grind" will improve this. Again - the primary purpose grind serves is to trick people into thinking they're enjoying a game long after they've burnt out by triggering our "work/reward" psychology. If that's what you're after, then fair enough. However, it's damaging to player investment long-term, and that matters for a Live Service.

Moreover, your example is false on its face. No job I've ever worked has offered to pay me more for the exact same amount of work. I've been offered more pay FOR MORE WORK, and I generally tend to not take those offers because I feel I make "enough" money to buy the things I want. Yes, I could always have more, but "more" has a number of costs, mental well-being among them. I speak from over 15 years' experience in various MMOs and from quite a lot of reflection on all the ways "grind" has damaged both my experience with individual video games and my personal life altogether. What you're proposing here is DANGEROUS at the very least, and I have the broken friendships to show for it.

This is why the whole "intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards" discussion happened in the first place. It's exactly because a majority of Warframe players don't actually like Warframe, but they're sticking around because DE keep drip-feeding us rewards. There's always something to "work towards," there's always something else to get, to the point where the actual game becomes immaterial. Doesn't matter which missions we play, doesn't matter what Warframes and guns we use, doesn't matter what we see on the screen. As long as I can cycle through the reward tiers faster, I might as well sit there watching a screen saver.

Grind in the form of progression is a decent system short-term, but it's damaging long-term once the underlying game loses its appeal. It's why I make a point, on my own time, to go through missions slowly, explore, gather all those resources I don't really need, fight all the enemies I don't need to fight and actually take in the theme, the setting, the mechanics and really the cool factor that drew me to Warframe in the first place. And when that isn't working, I pack my bags and go play other stuff. I can usually catch up on Nightwave and it's better that I leave on good terms then burn myself on the game so hard that I don't want to touch it again. I burned myself like that on Destiny 2, and I really should have known better.

Recently, I caught myself fighting Grineer and exclaiming out loud over voice something to the tune of "Man I love this gun!" This was regarding my Tenora, so not really related to its performance, so much as its ability to just lay down a volume of fire. It reminded me of years ago playing City of Heroes, thinking to myself "I can't believe this is actually happening! My childhood dream of playing a game with MY original characters in it has come true!" Moments like that are when games are truly worth playing. By contrast, I've often caught myself playing Warframe and thinking "Great, another one of those missions. Let's get it over with." That is a BAD sign, and usually when I go play other stuff.

Grind "seems" like a good reason to play in the moment. Eight years down the line when you look at the time you spent with a game once it's shut down and really think about whether you'd do it again... Yeah, it might not look so good then. Been there, done that.

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, Steel_Rook said:

Moreover, your example is false on its face. No job I've ever worked has offered to pay me more for the exact same amount of work. I've been offered more pay FOR MORE WORK, and I generally tend to not take those offers because I feel I make "enough" money to buy the things I want. Yes, I could always have more, but "more" has a number of costs, mental well-being among them. I speak from over 15 years' experience in various MMOs and from quite a lot of reflection on all the ways "grind" has damaged both my experience with individual video games and my personal life altogether. What you're proposing here is DANGEROUS at the very least, and I have the broken friendships to show for it.

I did not say my question was realistic. Of course it isn't, but the structure is the same. Asking players if they dislike grind is like asking someone if they want more payout for the same or less effort. It is a question that favors one side. That poll question is a heavily biased data point is my point there.

[Steel_Rook]

11 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Asking players if they dislike grind is like asking someone if they want more payout for the same or less effort. It is a question that favors one side. That poll question is a heavily biased data point is my point there.

It is not. Frankly, this line of thinking shows a fundamental lack of understanding of "grind," at least from where I'm standing. You're couching your arguments in an air of "people are entitled, they just want rewards without playing the game." My impressions when speaking with people has been the opposite. People want to play the parts of the game they want, the way they want to. Exceptions obviously exist, but in my experience, people are looking for ways to gain rewards WHILE doing the things they enjoy. When a game becomes a tradeoff between having fun or gaining rewards, that's when people start complaining about "the grind." When people want the reward but also want as little as they can get away with of the actual game, that's when pushing rewards pushes people into grind.

To me, the 2019 poll tells us that people want to be allowed to play the damn game without constantly being pushed into the next undercooked, underdeveloped content island. That players will speed-run missions for the end-of-mission rewards is not evidence that that's what people want and what they would do in an ideal world. It's an example of how "players will optimise all the fun out of a game if you let them." When Warframe fails to deliver functional entertaining content and the only way it can keep us active is by pushing us into really unfun content by means of bribe, then of course people will try to optimise. When the game becomes work, then of course people will want to do as little work as they can get away with while being paid as much as they can score.

Arguing for grind is arguing to turn Warframe into a job. As someone who's played MMOs like a job for over a decade now, I can tell you that this is a hollow prospect with a grim future. MMOs have a pretty bad retirement plan.

[MobyTheDuck]

15 hours ago, Voltage said:

Warframe needs more grind. Grind is the core loop of the game. The reason the game is getting stale in my opinion is because DE keeps adding grind and then backtracking and undermining their own systems.

 

9 hours ago, Voltage said:

I did not say my question was realistic. Of course it isn't, but the structure is the same. Asking players if they dislike grind is like asking someone if they want more payout for the same or less effort. It is a question that favors one side. That poll question is a heavily biased data point is my point there.

Sorry, but I'm really wondering if you are actually insane or something.

The game is a grind, but its a fun grind. This isnt the problem or the question here.

Getting kuva weapons, relics, prime parts, new frames and doing nightwave missions doesnt stops me from stockpilling materials for future projects. The ONLY exception are the Mutagen Samples, which have different rules that they refuse to change.

I want to play the game and have fun, not have to go out of my way to get 3 other players, boosters and grind the same mission for ONE RESOURCE. I have 50k of each other sample, but barely 5k of mutagen.
Forcing people to play more than they should to "earn" something is madness, you would have to be a massive selfish neet to think that because spent part of your life walking up a hill a hundred times, stepping in glass shards, to get something, so should everyone else.

Making the game a long, annoying and boring grind is what made the game lose so many players over the months, so I hope this was DE's wake up call to fix more old annoyances and that they listen more to the average player than the "HURT ME MORE, I WANT CHALLENGE REEEEE" players.

Edited March 9, 2020 by MobyTheDuck