I realized they basically did to shotguns what they did to beam weapons

[rapt0rman]

7 minutes ago, nslay said:

Bad system or not, it allowed more shotguns to work well. The new system is currently far worse than the old system. Shotguns are objectively bad now.

So yes, you get more build variety now. But build variety of all the bad sorts... except for a few shotguns where Hunter Munitions can be reliably used as a crutch.

So campaign for buffs to base status chance with the current system. Don't campaign for the system to change back.

Honestly it doesn't matter if it's wishful thinking in either direction. But one way leads away from progress and the other leads towards it.

Edited April 13, 2020 by rapt0rman

[nslay]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

How so? Which characteristic of the older system allowed more shotguns to work well?

Any shotgun with 23% or more base status could be made viable (with normal mods). That's an overwhelming majority of shotguns

Just now, Teridax68 said:

How so? Which characteristic of the new system is causing shotguns to be "objectively bad now"?

The poorly chosen status chance numbers. While they are technically a buff to the old base status chances, nobody used shotguns with base status chances. Nobody really used shotguns below 100% status (there a few exceptions).

So until they fix the status chance numbers, shotguns are overwhelmingly objectively bad now.

[Teridax68]

Just now, nslay said:

Any shotgun with 23% or more base status could be made viable (with normal mods). That's an overwhelming majority of shotguns

I'm immediately seeing three red flags here:

• Unless a shotgun had a very specific minimum amount of status chance, it was unviable.
• The difference between a shotgun with just 22% and 23% status chance was massive to a degree that was impossible to balance, due to the specific quirk of the formula.
• The difference pushed certain weapons to resort to expensive Rivens to make up the difference, e.g. with the Kohm.

Just now, nslay said:

The poorly chosen status chance numbers. While they are technically a buff to the old base status chances, nobody used shotguns with base status chances. Nobody really used shotguns below 100% status (there a few exceptions).

So until they fix the status chance numbers, shotguns are overwhelmingly objectively bad now.

So, by your own admission, the problem is not with the formula, but with the numbers. If the numbers on current status shotguns were raised, they'd be fine, to say nothing of the smoother scaling overall. Why then rail against the current formula when you should be criticizing the numbers?

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

So campaign for buffs to base status chance with the current system. Don't campaign for the system to change back.

Honestly it doesn't matter if it's wishful thinking in either direction. But one way leads away from progress and the other leads towards it.

There has been a regression. This is not currently progress even if it brings consistency and easy numbers for players (I like not needing a calculator). Shotguns were re-balanced with respect to base status chance (which is not how people used shotguns in the old system). This is why we got unbelievably bad status numbers...

I gotta be honest with you. As things are currently, I'd rather have the old system with 4x IPS weighting scheme gimping "insane" procs and the "100% or bust" because at least most shotguns were usable. A few are now salvageable using Hunter Munitions.

I mean, I feel for DE. To give the status numbers shotguns actually need... you're looking at ludicrous base "per-shot" (even if not advertised) statuses of 99%. That's insane! Take Tigris Prime for example... with the 3x buff, Tigris Prime has a "per-shot" status chance of ~62%. So if we saw the UI of the old system, you'd see a base status chance of 62% for Tigris Prime (make no mistake, this still reflects 11.25% per-projectile status).

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

Unless a shotgun had a very specific minimum amount of status chance, it was unviable.

When the change came out, I counted them. It was something like 5-6 "not viable" of the 25 or so? Guns like MK1-Strun... Wow...

Look, you're misunderstanding my perspective. From a mathematical perspective, I am completely indifferent. I see the benefits of both systems. I see the mechanisms (or lack of) balance in both systems.

We have this new system that eliminates 4x IPS weighting scheme for proc priorities, makes shotguns consistent with other weapons, provides an improved UI with numbers that are easy on the mind. But it nerfed status so hard that only 4-5 shotguns are now usable.

And we have the old system that had this annoying 4x IPS weighting scheme for proc priorities, had this "per-shot" interpretation of shotgun status chance that was either 100% or bust, a UI with a number not-at-all reflective of what players wanted to know... but the vast majority of shotguns could be made to work with standard mods. And shotguns actually had some novelty over similar weapons like bust rifles (which they don't now).

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

It made perfect sense before from a probability theory standpoint. It only makes sense now if DE is balancing around the average number of pellets proccing.

Which in turn still makes no sense because pellets are for shotguns closer to fire rate of other guns and DE doesnt arbitrarily make high fire rate rifles have their modded status chance cap at around 40%.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Andele3025

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, nslay said:

When the change came out, I counted them. It was something like 5-6 "not viable" of the 25 or so? Guns like MK1-Strun... Wow...

That's nice, but then with the previous system we had clear cases like the Kohm, a crappy weapon on its own that became god-tier with the right Riven, and many shotguns, including shotgun pistols, had to receive increases to their status chance specifically because anything that couldn't reach 100% was deemed not worth using. As such, I have serious doubts as to your "calculations", and would be curious to know which exact date you made them.

3 minutes ago, nslay said:

Look, you're misunderstanding my perspective. From a mathematical perspective, I am completely indifferent. I see the benefits of both systems. I see the mechanisms (or lack of) balance in both systems.

I'm clearly not misunderstanding your perspective, so much as pointing out the fact that you're barking up the wrong tree, an observation that should be immediately obvious to someone who claims to be fascinated by probability theory. You say you are indifferent to the two systems, yet are railing against the new system when the real issue you are taking is with the new status chance assigned to shotguns, a clear error in logic. Rather than accuse others of misunderstanding you, you would therefore benefit from admitting to having made a mistake, as ultimately we all seem to be agreeing that the new status chance on shotguns is too low, and is the main problem with the changes.

[nslay]

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

That's nice, but then with the previous system we had clear cases like the Kohm, a crappy weapon on its own that became god-tier with the right Riven, and many shotguns, including shotgun pistols, had to receive increases to their status chance specifically because anything that couldn't reach 100% was deemed not worth using. As such, I have serious doubts as to your "calculations", and would be curious to know which exact date you made them.

Hey, look at this...

And this...

 

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm clearly not misunderstanding your perspective, so much as pointing out the fact that you're barking up the wrong tree, an observation that should be immediately obvious to someone who claims to be fascinated by probability theory. You say you are indifferent to the two systems, yet are railing against the new system when the real issue you are taking is with the new status chance assigned to shotguns, a clear error in logic. Rather than accuse others of misunderstanding you, you would therefore benefit from admitting to having made a mistake, as ultimately we all seem to be agreeing that the new status chance on shotguns is too low, and is the main problem with the changes.

No, you clearly are misunderstanding. You're somehow missing the plethora of posts and comments that actually support the new system. And then at the same time, you're clearly only seeing the posts and comments that only support the old system.

The old system is currently better. Why is it better? More weapons work with the old system (almost all shotguns). This is objectively indisputable. I don't care about what-ifs with better status numbers, consistency, the curve, etc... At the end of the day, more weapons worked in the old system. And your remark about Rivens is an exaggeration (especially about the Kohm!).

Until they fix the status numbers, the old system is better. It's that simple.

But when someone writes "weird formula," they probably don't understand how the formula is derived... because there is nothing weird about it. Such a person probably doesn't understand that it derives from the initial problem setup... the "per-shot" interpretation that DE originally chose for shotguns naturally gives rise to the "weird formula." I've even derived it several times on the forum for everyone (I even put it in LaTeX).

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, nslay said:

No, you clearly are misunderstanding. You're somehow missing the plethora of posts and comments that actually support the new system. And then at the same time, you're clearly only seeing the posts and comments that only support the old system.

The old system is currently better. Why is it better? More weapons work with the old system (almost all shotguns). This is objectively indisputable. I don't care about what-ifs with better status numbers, consistency, the curve, etc... At the end of the day, more weapons worked in the old system. And your remark about Rivens is an exaggeration (especially about the Kohm!).

Until they fix the status numbers, the old system is better. It's that simple.

I don't need to dredge through your post history, because your very comment here contradicts itself. You are continuing to rail against the new system when it is clearly the new numbers on status shotguns that are out of balance. The system itself is working just fine, and presents clear advantages in both balance and consistency over the old system. Not only were you understood perfectly, it is you who are blatantly failing to consider what others are telling you, as you are continuing to repeat the same mistake over and over again.

2 minutes ago, nslay said:

But when someone writes "weird formula," they probably don't understand how the formula is derived... because there is nothing weird about it. Such a person probably doesn't understand that it derives from the initial problem setup... the "per-shot" interpretation that DE originally chose for shotguns naturally gives rise to the "weird formula." I've even derived it several times on the forum for everyone (I even put it in LaTeX).

Nobody cares. The criticism of the old formula is visibly not just that it was "weird", but that it made balancing status shotguns extremely brittle due to the massive difference even a fraction of a single percentage point could make. The "per-shot" interpretation itself makes strictly no sense because the old formula calculated the overall status chance for an entire shot to apply a status effect... right up until 100%, at which point every individual pellet was guaranteed to apply status. That is why the old formula was so broken. You'd best get over it, and direct your criticism towards something more useful, such as raising the base status chance on shotguns you think are deficient.

[nslay]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The "per-shot" interpretation itself makes strictly no sense because the old formula calculated the overall status chance for an entire shot to apply a status effect...

This is what you attack. Not me.

When DE chose this interpretation for this weapon class, that's why you got a formula with a radical and a near binary curve that essentially means 100% or bust. What did DE do? They created shotguns with or close to the "cut-off" threshold. They even added a status mod like Motus Setup later (anything else is before my time!). And then I'm guessing they used proc priorities to crudely balance them. Because hey... even though you got 100% status on your Boar Prime, Impact is stealing most of your procs (especially with that god awful 4x weighting). Even Tigris Prime suffered from stolen procs... even with 4x weighting prioritizing Slash, if you slotted 4 60/60s, only 50% of your pellets proc Slash on average.

I'm glad they got rid of the 4x weighting scheme. It makes it easier to think about proc priorities.

The current design is nicer in many ways, but most shotguns are bad now with the current status numbers... and also part of the novelty of shotguns was that you could get all pellets proccing status. Not as novel anymore now!

[Teridax68]

10 minutes ago, nslay said:

This is what you attack. Not me.

Yes, which is the problem I am pointing out, as you seem to be using "interpretation" as a means of handwaving obvious problems with the previous formula. Whichever interpretation one chooses for the old formula makes no sense because the old formula swings radically from one to another, and so cannot possibly justify its implementation, let alone excuse its systemic issues.

10 minutes ago, nslay said:

The current design is nicer in many ways, but most shotguns are bad now with the current status numbers... and also part of the novelty of shotguns was that you could get all pellets proccing status. Not as novel anymore now!

Okay, glad we agree then. I'm with you that shotguns should be about proccing multiple status effects in one go, but the advantage of the current system is that it's perfectly achievable on a regular basis given adequate status chances. In general, I think slow-firing weapons got kinda shafted with this update because there's even more emphasis on stacking as many status effects as possible, and in order to compensate for that, status rocket launchers, sniper rifles, etc. ought to be allowed to go way over 100% status chance per individual projectile to match up to fast-firing weapons. A similar reasoning ought to apply to shotguns, so that they can apply as many status effects per second on average as an automatic weapon, just in their own way.

[Tiltskillet]

I just want the Strun Wraith to be a solid weapon again.  Preferably in a way that leverages its pellet count..  

 

[nslay]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

Yes, which is the problem I am pointing out, as you seem to be using "interpretation" as a means of handwaving obvious problems with the previous formula. Whichever interpretation one chooses for the old formula makes no sense because the old formula swings radically from one to another, and so cannot possibly justify its implementation, let alone excuse its systemic issues.

I'm not handwaving anything. And for its faults, there is nothing obviously wrong with starting with a "per-shot" interpretation. You start with N pellets being considered a "shot" and "per-shot" status chance of S and then you can use some simple probability theory and algebra to explain the old system with these. At face value, this looks completely reasonable! But the resulting "per-pellet" chance is essentially binary though (100% or bust) which means DE must design shotguns with a certain range of "per-shot" status chances and that players must mod shotguns a very specific way. It escapes me why DE started with this design choice because they could have drawn from how burst rifles work. Maybe they wanted something new? Because as it is stands now, shotguns are essentially burst rifles with their own weapon class.

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, nslay said:

I'm not handwaving anything. And for its faults, there is nothing obviously wrong with starting with a "per-shot" interpretation. You start with N pellets being considered a "shot" and "per-shot" status chance of S and then you can use some simple probability theory and algebra to explain the old system with these. At face value, this looks completely reasonable! But the resulting "per-pellet" chance is essentially binary though (100% or bust) which means DE must design shotguns with a certain range of "per-shot" status chances and that players must mod shotguns a very specific way. It escapes me why DE started with this design choice because they could have drawn from how burst rifles work. Maybe they wanted something new? Because as it is stands now, shotguns are essentially burst rifles with their own weapon class.

You literally just explained why there are many things that are seriously wrong with the "per-shot" interpretation for shotguns. There was never a reason to make shotguns play by different rules, and right now the problem is simply that they're not adjusted entirely well along the new ones numerically. Really, one could just buff the base status chance of shotguns that are suffering right now, and the problem would be solved.

[nslay]

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You literally just explained why there are many things that are seriously wrong with the "per-shot" interpretation for shotguns. There was never a reason to make shotguns play by different rules, and right now the problem is simply that they're not adjusted entirely well along the new ones numerically. Really, one could just buff the base status chance of shotguns that are suffering right now, and the problem would be solved.

I guess DE needs to design status shotguns with a certain range of status chances again (depending on its pellets)? I think they're balancing with respect to the average number of pellets proccing... how many pellets should proc on average for a base weapon? DE chose that to be 3*S (where S is the old "per-shot" chance)... this follows from new P = 3*S/N and P*N = average number of pellets proccing.

I don't know, while I was mainly explaining why it's not obviously unreasonable to start with a "per-shot" interpretation, I thought of a reason why shotguns could play by different rules. Different weapon class? Novelty? Fun? There was nothing more satisfying than seeing all those little hazard icons come off pellets. And well... almost all the shotguns designed for the old system worked fine in the old system.

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, nslay said:

I guess DE needs to design status shotguns with a certain range of status chances again (depending on its pellets)? I think they're balancing with respect to the average number of pellets proccing... how many pellets should proc on average for a base weapon? DE chose that to be 3*S (where S is the old "per-shot" chance)... this follows from new P = 3*S/N and P*N = average number of pellets proccing.

I don't know, while I was mainly explaining why it's not obviously unreasonable to start with a "per-shot" interpretation, I thought of a reason why shotguns could play by different rules. Different weapon class? Novelty? Fun? There was nothing more satisfying than seeing all those little hazard icons come off pellets. And well... almost all the shotguns designed for the old system worked fine in the old system.

I do think that difference can be expressed even when playing by the same rules, though, because shotguns should still be applying lots of status in one go, just using the same formula as everyone else. Really, I think the reasoning should be as follows:

Suppose in some vacuum scenario that we have a benchmark weapon for status application: this weapon fires 1 projectile per shot, but fires 10 shots per second, and can be modded up to 100% status chance per shot, for 10 status effects per second. Suppose we want a shotgun that applies the same amount of status effects per second: this shotgun fires 1 shot per second, but has 10 projectiles per shot. In this scenario, the status chance should be about the same, so that each projectile can also reach 100% status chance. If the benchmark weapon had its fire rate increased to 20 shots per second, and the shotgun's fire rate and number of projectiles were unchanged, its base status chance should increase so that each projectile should go up to 200% status chance. If we were to throw in a status sniper rifle into this mix, with a fire rate of 1 second and one single projectile, its own status chance should be able to go up to 1000% status chance in the first scenario, and 2000% in the second, so that it can match up to the rest. Basically, status chance needs to much higher the slower-firing a weapon is, in order to be roughly on par with high fire rate weapons, which would give those weapons their own distinct mode of status application.

[nslay]

4 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I do think that difference can be expressed even when playing by the same rules, though, because shotguns should still be applying lots of status in one go, just using the same formula as everyone else. Really, I think the reasoning should be as follows:

Suppose in some vacuum scenario that we have a benchmark weapon for status application: this weapon fires 1 projectile per shot, but fires 10 shots per second, and can be modded up to 100% status chance per shot, for 10 status effects per second. Suppose we want a shotgun that applies the same amount of status effects per second: this shotgun fires 1 shot per second, but has 10 projectiles per shot. In this scenario, the status chance should be about the same, so that each projectile can also reach 100% status chance. If the benchmark weapon had its fire rate increased to 20 shots per second, and the shotgun's fire rate and number of projectiles were unchanged, its base status chance should increase so that each projectile should go up to 200% status chance. If we were to throw in a status sniper rifle into this mix, with a fire rate of 1 second and one single projectile, its own status chance should be able to go up to 1000% status chance in the first scenario, and 2000% in the second, so that it can match up to the rest. Basically, status chance needs to much higher the slower-firing a weapon is, in order to be roughly on par with high fire rate weapons, which would give those weapons their own distinct mode of status application.

OK, I like that sort of thinking. That makes a lot of sense! So from that perspective the old "per-pellet" status chance is harder to tune against such a benchmark weapon with respect to status/per second because the old system is essentially all or nothing. I think DE must have assumed the "all" scenario and just balanced shotguns in the old system using proc priorities (so many are gimped by Impact majority damage type). I wish they considered the "all" scenario when they gave us new status numbers.

That said, because they seem to do their per-pellet status chance calculations by dividing by pellet count, the new system lends itself very well to tuning against a benchmark weapon in your scenario. Hopefully they will also tune the native damage types of shotguns too (the removal of 4x weighting helps most shotguns though!).

 

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, nslay said:

OK, I like that sort of thinking. That makes a lot of sense! So from that perspective the old "per-pellet" status chance is harder to tune against such a benchmark weapon with respect to status/per second because the old system is essentially all or nothing. I think DE must have assumed the "all" scenario and just balanced shotguns in the old system using proc priorities (so many are gimped by Impact majority damage type). I wish they considered the "all" scenario when they gave us new status numbers.

That said, because they seem to do their per-pellet status chance calculations by dividing by pellet count, the new system lends itself very well to tuning against a benchmark weapon in your scenario. Hopefully they will also tune the native damage types of shotguns too (the removal of 4x weighting helps most shotguns though!).

Exactly! That was basically what I was trying to get to: some shotguns currently suck after the changes, but mainly because they're just not tuned right. The underlying system actually lends itself much more easily to fine-tuning, and going over 100% status means you can sell the fantasy of really OP status application by making some shotguns exceed 100% or even 200% status chance, while in truth remaining balanced relative to other, faster-firing weapons.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Shotguns that hit 100% in the old maths were over-performant in net proc per second output as compared to their equivalents in other weapon categories (e.g. comparing 'status hose' shotty vs. 'status hose' rifles).

Shotguns that did not hit 100% in the old maths were under-performant compared to shotguns that did hit 100% (non-linear spike at the threshold) and compared to other weapon categories.

 

Shotguns, in the new maths, now perform significantly better at any status chance that would not have equated to 100% in the old system.

Shotguns, in the new maths, now perform reasonably comparatively to non-shotgun weapons in net procs per second at all times, instead of arbitrarily more effectively when they would have equated to 100% in the old system.

 

These are the facts.

 

And just for those who know whom they are:

The trend for receiving a LESSER improvement in the migration to new maths is tied NOT to PELLET COUNT but to the ORIGINAL STATUS CHANCE of the weapon.
Greater old status = lesser improvement (but improvement nonetheless where not hitting the 100% Breaking Threshold).

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

41 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Shotguns that hit 100% in the old maths were over-performant in net proc per second output as compared to their equivalents in other weapon categories (e.g. comparing 'status hose' shotty vs. 'status hose' rifles).

Shotguns that did not hit 100% in the old maths were under-performant compared to shotguns that did hit 100% (non-linear spike at the threshold) and compared to other weapon categories.

 

Shotguns, in the new maths, now perform significantly better at any status chance that would not have equated to 100% in the old system.

Shotguns, in the new maths, now perform reasonably comparatively to non-shotgun weapons in net procs per second at all times, instead of arbitrarily more effectively when they would have equated to 100% in the old system.

 

These are the facts.

 

And just for those who know whom they are:

The trend for receiving a LESSER improvement in the migration to new maths is tied NOT to PELLET COUNT but to the ORIGINAL STATUS CHANCE of the weapon.
Greater old status = lesser improvement (but improvement nonetheless where not hitting the 100% Breaking Threshold).

Fascinating.

But the current way shotguns function is still dumb and should be fixed. As the old shotgun status formula atleast opened the possibility for status to actually work well on shotguns. Instead of none of them being able to proc status at a good enough rate.

Edited April 14, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[rapt0rman]

This thread pretty much died (rightfully), but I'll say it one last time. The old "formula" was never what allowed shotguns to work, it opened up 0 possibilities. the base status chance that shotguns had before was not part of the old formula, and the status chance we have now is not part of the new formula.

They're a variable like "x", all x does is get solved for. And solving for x does not magically change a formula.

The new formula explicitly opens up more possibilities. They didn't have room for adjustment before, the amazingly simple idea of "just adjust the base status chance of a few weapons" would not have been a solution before because the old formula still guaranteed that only one state was viable. 

They do have room for adjustment now. The solution really is "just adjust the base status chance of a few weapons".

Edited April 15, 2020 by rapt0rman

[(PSN)Crixus044]

The issue is that for years shotguns were designed and balanced around the old formula. This includes primes, riven dispo, and general changes. Remember the OLDhotgun buff? Tigris Prime was designed around this interaction and now is dead because of this.

The formula's revision was terribly executed. Shotguns now function like very fast burst fire rifles with terrible status chance. Gas and slash are crap and viral/ corrosive barely works. If they wanted to make each pellet independent with status effects, then they gotta make the status chance viable independently, much like a burst fire rifle

If they want to truly rebalance shotguns, they'll have to modify each weapon separately, which takes a lot of time

OR

Combine the 2 formula's to take the best of each. I made a thread on this concept. Check it out on the megathread

EDIT: Forgot to mention, RIP Twin Rogga

Edited April 15, 2020 by (PS4)Crixus044

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2020-04-15 at 5:40 PM, rapt0rman said:

This thread pretty much died (rightfully)

Now that’s just uncalled for.

[Raso719]

Isn't having 6 - 12 pellets each with a ~30% chance to proc a status, like, a REALLY good chance to proc about 2 status per shot?

Or is the basic complaint that you now can't proc 30 status ailments per pull of the trigger? Because that seems excessive..... I haven't fully understood this whole shotgun nerf complaint train since it started.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, Raso719 said:

Isn't having 6 - 12 pellets each with a ~30% chance to proc a status, like, a REALLY good chance to proc about 2 status per shot?

Or is the basic complaint that you now can't proc 30 status ailments per pull of the trigger? Because that seems excessive..... I haven't fully understood this whole shotgun nerf complaint train since it started.

It’s not as good as each pellet having 100% status.

The whole justification was “oh well stacking status procs will make up for it”. But they don’t. They very much don’t.