I realized they basically did to shotguns what they did to beam weapons

[Raso719]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s not as good as each pellet having 100% status.

The whole justification was “oh well stacking status procs will make up for it”. But they don’t. They very much don’t.

So then I am fully understanding the complaint... people want to stack like 30 status ailments with each pull of the trigger because often having 2 or 3 procs from your 6 - 12 pellets isn't enough. Because a million procs is not as good as ten thousand procs. 

 

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, Raso719 said:

So then I am fully understanding the complaint... people want to stack like 30 status ailments with each pull of the trigger because often having 2 or 3 procs from your 6 - 12 pellets isn't enough. Because a million procs is not as good as ten thousand procs. 

 

 

I just want my Tigris prime to go back to feeling like it’s actually a PRIME weapon. And not some MR 4 fodder weapon.

[Tinklzs]

4 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I just want my Tigris prime to go back to feeling like it’s actually a PRIME weapon. And not some MR 4 fodder weapon.

This. My strun wraith without it's nice riven could 2-3 shot 165 corrupted heavy gunners. Now it takes 8 shots to kill a level 100 corrupted heavy gunner, WITH the riven. I'm not exactly sure what they could do to fix it (because broad strokes would break more things, for better or worse) but many weapons were made.. literally useless with the status changes. Whereas others are breaking through the ceiling, when some of them were already soaring above the rest.

[(XBOX)GuyFarting]

They’ll eventually probably have to do another full shotgun rework, regardless of which system was better, as shotguns seem to be quite unpopular now. 

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GuyFarting said:

They’ll eventually probably have to do another full shotgun rework, regardless of which system was better, as shotguns seem to be quite unpopular now. 

Thats what happens when you dont accurately convert status and proceed to nerf by pellet count.
If DE accurately converted, stuff like the Tigris prime would have 25% status chance per pellet to actually have the 90% status probability/3x prior per shot that was promised.

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Thats what happens when you dont accurately convert status and proceed to nerf by pellet count.
If DE accurately converted, stuff like the Tigris prime would have 25% status chance per pellet to actually have the 90% status probability/3x prior per shot that was promised.

Because having a baseline of 2.59x proc potential at 11.3% status per pellet totally infers that it requires more than double that status chance in order to turn 2.59 into 3.00.

As usual, you're talking nonsense. It would, in isolation, require 13.1% status per pellet to have ~300% status proc output at mod baseline. 25% per pellet would in fact be 573.32% baseline proc potential.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, TheLexiConArtist said:

Because having a baseline of 2.59x proc potential at 11.3% status per pellet totally infers that it requires more than double that status chance in order to turn 2.59 into 3.00.

As usual, you're talking nonsense. It would, in isolation, require 13.1% status per pellet to have ~300% status proc output at mod baseline. 25% per pellet would in fact be 573.32% baseline proc potential.

But that 573% baseline doesn’t matter at all because it’s not what we’re seeing in the stats menu. What we see is a % that’s not even 1/4 of the baseline.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

But that 573% baseline doesn’t matter at all because it’s not what we’re seeing in the stats menu. What we see is a % that’s not even 1/4 of the baseline.

This comment is ambiguously vague to the point of being barely intelligible, but two possibilities read likely:

Are you telling me you want to almost double the Actual Performance, simply because you're judging exclusively from the surface level visual stats, not what the actual performance is when you do the maths to account for them?

OR

Are you talking about the modded result, which was never meant to be 3x higher on any shotgun because the algorithmic change was to normalise status to a consistent level, rather than have them raise on an exponent (and then breaking entirely if you surpassed 100%) in the old style?

 

[Tiltskillet]

12 hours ago, (XB1)GuyFarting said:

They’ll eventually probably have to do another full shotgun rework, regardless of which system was better, as shotguns seem to be quite unpopular now. 

I don't think they need a full mechanical rework, just individual tuning.

[Andele3025]

10 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Because having a baseline of 2.59x proc potential at 11.3% status per pellet totally infers that it requires more than double that status chance in order to turn 2.59 into 3.00.

As usual, you're talking nonsense. It would, in isolation, require 13.1% status per pellet to have ~300% status proc output at mod baseline. 25% per pellet would in fact be 573.32% baseline proc potential.

No it wouldnt. 8 pellets, each 25% chance to proc is: 1 - 0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75 = 0.9 aka 90% chance per shot.
30% per shot chance multiplied by x is 90%, which if there are 8 instances for a 90% probability means each instance has a 25% chance.
For the 100000th time, you dont do addition when stacking probability, thats not how it works, thats also why DE #*!%ed up the conversion.
To get total probability from stacking instances with a % chance to happen, you multiply the chance of a event not happening to the power of instances and subtract it from 100%/1 (or x if its a x:x events).

This is god damn grade school math. Maybe high school if generous or in a more art and lit focused educational path.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Andele3025

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

11 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

This comment is ambiguously vague to the point of being barely intelligible, but two possibilities read likely:

Are you telling me you want to almost double the Actual Performance, simply because you're judging exclusively from the surface level visual stats, not what the actual performance is when you do the maths to account for them?

OR

Are you talking about the modded result, which was never meant to be 3x higher on any shotgun because the algorithmic change was to normalise status to a consistent level, rather than have them raise on an exponent (and then breaking entirely if you surpassed 100%) in the old style?

 

I’m saying whatever the base status is doesn’t matter because we only ever see the status per pellet. It’s not that complex.

[George_PPS]

On 2020-04-13 at 7:28 AM, nslay said:

Bad system or not, it allowed more shotguns to work well. The new system is currently far worse than the old system. Shotguns are objectively bad now.

So yes, you get more build variety now. But build variety of all the bad sorts... except for a few shotguns where Hunter Munitions can be reliably used as a crutch.

Exactly. That genius DE designer also applied the awful design thing to melee 3.0. Melee 2.0 had some super meta weapons and many others are junk. Melee 3.0 killed all those meta and fun weapons and their amazing ranges and replace them with a bunch melee weapons that work better but none matches what old metas could do.

[George_PPS]

On 2020-04-24 at 12:11 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I just want my Tigris prime to go back to feeling like it’s actually a PRIME weapon. And not some MR 4 fodder weapon.

Tigris Prime had amazing and unique status mechanics that made it one of a kind shotgun. It too trashed by the new design trend. Tigris Prime should work like it used to be. Those slash procs are the first thing that needs to be restored on Tigris Prime. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No it wouldnt. 8 pellets, each 25% chance to proc is: 1 - 0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75 = 0.9 aka 90% chance per shot.
30% per shot chance multiplied by x is 90%, which if there are 8 instances for a 90% probability means each instance has a 25% chance.
For the 100000th time, you dont do addition when stacking probability, thats not how it works, thats also why DE #*!%ed up the conversion.
To get total probability from stacking instances with a % chance to happen, you multiply the chance of a event not happening to the power of instances and subtract it from 100%/1 (or x if its a x:x events).

This is god damn grade school math. Maybe high school if generous or in a more art and lit focused educational path.

Cool story. But "at least one proc" is god damn irrelevant as a metric when it comes to weapon performance. 

I'm talking about the functional average. 

'At least one drop' makes sense in relics because you choose one of the options per run, and generally you want one (or two, at most) per build.

With weapon performance, what matters is the average output. That's why a 15%/2.0x crit weapon is still 'crit viable' for DPS, and why crit chance is a fairly low-priority stat for stacking purposes (it doesn't change the average as cost-effectively).

[Laston]

can anyone correct me if im wrong? From what i understand they took the weps baseline status chance divided it by the number of pellets and then tripled that value while removing the old math where the status chance proc was the chance for one of the pellets procing status now they all have the same chance to proc one...

The problem is it feels like they nerfed alot of status based shotguns like mara detron  feels wank now but im not sure if thats more due to  the nerf to the actual status procs more than anything. i havent actually tried many besides the mara so i dont know if tigris prime, strun wraith or boar prime for example are badly nerfed by the change i mostly use corinth

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I'm talking about the functional average. 

That is the functional average you grineer roller. Till probability hits 99.999 within a unit of measurement, its what you use per interval to get the realistic effectiveness of something based on chance.

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

'At least one drop' makes sense in relics because you choose one of the options per run, and generally you want one (or two, at most) per build.

And it would still have a chance to have multiple procs, in fact it would still have a circa 10% for 0 (DUH), 25% chance for 1, 30% for 2, 20% for 3, etc, on average tho its the same. (well 84-90% depending on rounding, point stands tho). Which as it turns out is the same net probability of a 8 fire rate rifle at 25% status.
Geee, its almost as if DE didnt properly convert and instead nerfed shotguns status chance by pellet count.

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

With weapon performance, what matters is the average output. That's why a 15%/2.0x crit weapon is still 'crit viable' for DPS, and why crit chance is a fairly low-priority stat for stacking purposes (it doesn't change the average as cost-effectively).

And you're actively ignoring not just the average but also the floor/minimum performance. Also 15% is maybe enough to be worth the 2 mods on a hybrid loadout (PS+VS make it a rounded 2x damage multi aka enough to sometimes bother with headcrits but not if status does the work) if the rest of the stats are right, but even a dakka flood gun cant make that work for raw crit, too much variance.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

I got tired of reading the argue about old and new system somewhere at page 2, I just want to support those who like the new system more in terms of user Interface but point out that the base chance per pellet needs to be balanced individually.

All the CRIT non100% status shotguns got a free bonus x3 to their status chance comparing to old system, they were relying on Hunter Munitions before and removal of IPS x4 weighting just gave them a nice elemental proc bonus without any drawbacks with the same builds that they had before. Now they are even better if built corrosive(/heat) or viral(/heat) while still use Hunter Munitions.

All of the old 100% status shotguns only got a huge nerf because the old formula WAS broken, but it gave them potential  to compete (outperform) Crit shotguns.

The only shotgun that didn't change from the new system is Exergis as it has only 3 pellets per shot. It was able to reach 100% status with 3x60/60 mods with the old formula and it is now because the base status was buffed by 3.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Scar.brother.help.me