[Railjack] Is It Confirmed That More Than One Element On Archguns Is Wasted?

[BornWithTeeth]

So, taking another look at the Archguns and thinking about the Railjack rework, right now physical damage types (Impact, Puncture, Slash) and primary elements (Heat, Toxin, Electricity, Cold) get converted to their Railjack damage equivalents...but combined elements do not, for the purpose of Status effects. In other words, if you have an Archgun with just Cold damage on it, then in Railjack combat that gun can proc the Frost effect, but if your Archgun has the combined element of Viral, then it will not proc elements at all and will only proc the physical types.

 

Is it confirmed that that's the case? I tested it myself by going into a solo Railjack mission twice, first with Viral on the gun, and then with just Cold. First time, no element procs at all. Second time, plenty of useful Frost procs.

 

[Corvid]

Best I can tell, if you use the dual-stat mods you'll still benefit from the increased status chance. It may also convert the damage into the IPS equivalent, but I'm not certain.

[HoustonDragon]

9 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

So, taking another look at the Archguns and thinking about the Railjack rework, right now physical damage types (Impact, Puncture, Slash) and primary elements (Heat, Toxin, Electricity, Cold) get converted to their Railjack damage equivalents...but combined elements do not, for the purpose of Status effects. In other words, if you have an Archgun with just Cold damage on it, then in Railjack combat that gun can proc the Frost effect, but if your Archgun has the combined element of Viral, then it will not proc elements at all and will only proc the physical types.

 

Is it confirmed that that's the case? I tested it myself by going into a solo Railjack mission twice, first with Viral on the gun, and then with just Cold. First time, no element procs at all. Second time, plenty of useful Frost procs.

Unfortunately, Archgun damage in Railjack missions is currently nerfed to the ground and really not worth bothering with. This is supposed to be fixed with the upcoming patch:

Personally, I only really use the Archgun to pop the shield generators on the Crewships, and otherwise, use the Archwing just as quick transportation when I'm soloing away from the Railjack. Hoping they'll make it more like the normal Archwing missions where you can actually chew up some fighters.

 

[taiiat]

Damage works exactly the same as outside Railjack, only Status Effects differ.
having a Combined Element does not appear to make any negative impact on expected vs result of Status probability.

 

your test case... makes complete sense? you can't apply Viral, but you can apply Ice, so you got Ice but not Viral. what exactly were you trying to test with those two scenarios...........?

Edited April 30, 2020 by taiiat

[Vit0Corleone]

Just now, HoustonDragon said:

Personally, I only really use the Archgun to pop the shield generators on the Crewships, and otherwise, use the Archwing just as quick transportation when I'm soloing away from the Railjack. Hoping they'll make it more like the normal Archwing missions where you can actually chew up some fighters.

They need to strike a good balance with this, and it's not easy.

Make archwing game play too good, and Railjack turns into a glorified space bus, and then people complaint that Railjack is useless and you're better off using your archwing.

Make them weak, and you have people complaining that archwing gameplay irrelevant for Railjack missions.

IMHO, I hope that DE focuses on gameplay/mission variety where Archwing has specific roles on the mission, instead of trying to compete with Railljack on space ship pew pew combat.

[Savire510]

4 minutes ago, HoustonDragon said:

 

Personally, I only really use the Archgun to pop the shield generators on the Crewships,

 

Actually you can just fire a single mk3 rocket from Railjack and the explosion will one shot every single generator.

You can one shot these grineer minelayers with red weakpoints too.

[SneakyErvin]

Yes that should be the case but you will instead/also benefit/suffer from the combined element's bonus damage/damage penalty.

[BornWithTeeth]

8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Damage works exactly the same as outside Railjack, only Status Effects differ.
having a Combined Element does not appear to make any negative impact on expected vs result of Status probability.

 

your test case... makes complete sense? you can't apply Viral, but you can apply Ice, so you got Ice but not Viral. what exactly were you trying to test with those two scenarios...........?

It means that using combined elements on one's Archgun results in having no elemental Status procs. Which is not great. Optimal Status effects for dogfighting would be lots of Particle (Slash) and Plasma (Puncture) for rendering targets more vulnerable to damage, and Frost (Cold) to slow and stop fast moving targets and make it easier to maintain consistent damage on them. In order to achieve that, you need to muck about with your build and make sure that your only element is Cold and that you make up the Status chance without using more than one dual stat mod. It means that a good dogfighting build is actually kinda clunky and unintuitive to put together, and that without checking the wiki specifically for that note, players could accidentally think "Yeah, I've got a good build!" when actually they've locked themselves out of useful Status effects.

 

 

EDIT: Which...is extremely Warframe, come to think of it. "I have a good build!" Actually, no, there's a mechanic which the game doesn't explain to you that means your build is suboptimal.

Edited April 30, 2020 by BornWithTeeth

[taiiat]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

It means that using combined elements on one's Archgun results in having no elemental Status procs.

huh? but you tested Viral, and Ice. you didn't say you tested Viral + something.

i'll cut to the chase: Radiation+Ice is objectively the best set of Elementals to use. you apply Ice while also getting the Damage Multiplier of Radiation. with IPS strewn in as usual.

Edited April 30, 2020 by taiiat

[BornWithTeeth]

9 minutes ago, taiiat said:

huh? but you tested Viral, and Ice. you didn't say you tested Viral + something.

 

That's...the point. I tested Viral and base physicals, and got only IPS procs. Then, in the second test, I went in with Cold and base physicals and got a mix of Frost and IPS procs. Therefore, combined elements do not proc.

 

That said, a Radiation and Cold build is a good idea if you're doing hybrid, for the damage multiplier.

[Urlan]

17 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That's...the point. I tested Viral and base physicals, and got only IPS procs. Then, in the second test, I went in with Cold and base physicals and got a mix of Frost and IPS procs. Therefore, combined elements do not proc.

 

That said, a Radiation and Cold build is a good idea if you're doing hybrid, for the damage multiplier.

That was my experience as well. No combo elements can proc, just the basic physical and heat, toxin, cold, and electric.

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That's...the point. I tested Viral and base physicals, and got only IPS procs. Then, in the second test, I went in with Cold and base physicals and got a mix of Frost and IPS procs. Therefore, combined elements do not proc.

okay, but then you expressed how this was horrible and meant that everything was wrecked, or, something?

which, i don't follow based on just that test.
because you said:

Quote

In order to achieve that, you need to muck about with your build and make sure that your only element is Cold and that you make up the Status chance without using more than one dual stat mod. It means that a good dogfighting build is actually kinda clunky and unintuitive to put together

which..... huh?

 

 

 

7 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

From my experience, it's rather confirmed that every single mod is a waste. It feels like railjack doesn't even consider any of the mods I have installed, still doing my around 10 points of damage with them..

that is definitely not the case, but everything is divided by 20, so first glance differences can be fairly small.

Edited April 30, 2020 by taiiat

[BornWithTeeth]

57 minutes ago, taiiat said:

okay, but then you expressed how this was horrible and meant that everything was wrecked, or, something?

which, i don't follow based on just that test.
because you said:

which..... huh?

 

 

 

that is definitely not the case, but everything is divided by 20, so first glance differences can be fairly small.

What I'm saying is that since combined elements cannot proc, they're only good for increasing the base damage of your gun, and don't help with inflicting useful Status effects. No matter what you do, an Archgun in Empyrean can only be capable of proccing the Status effects of one primary element plus the IPS, or no element at all (plus the IPS). 

 

If you put no element on your gun, then you can only cause IPS Status effects.
If you put one element on your gun, then you can Status proc that element. 
If you put two elements on your gun, they form a secondary element, which can't proc in Empyrean fights, so they basically cancel each other, and you're back to only IPS effects.
If you put three elements on your gun, the first two form a secondary element and cancel each other out, and only the third element counts as a potential Status effect.

It's annoying to mod for, and unintuitive. Especially when you consider that, as you pointed out, Radiation is a good damage type in Empyrean because everything uses Alloy Armour, but while Radiation is a good damage type, it's a nonexistent Status effect.

 

I just think it's kind of a dumb system.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

What I'm saying is that since combined elements cannot proc, they're only good for increasing the base damage of your gun, and don't help with inflicting useful Status effects.

okay, that makes a lot more sense now. i just didn't follow where you were going.

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Especially when you consider that, as you pointed out, Radiation is a good damage type in Empyrean because everything uses Alloy Armour, but while Radiation is a good damage type, it's a nonexistent Status effect.

yes/no - the game is that way normally too, where Damage Types and Status Effects aren't necessarily both useful on the same Enemy simultaneously. Enemies that aren't weak to or even resistant to Viral Damage, or Corrosive vs Alloy Armor, Enemies that are Resistant to Slash Damage(but Slash Status exists), for example.

Edited April 30, 2020 by taiiat