How Do We Break out of the AoE Meta

[ant99999]

So we all know that the majority of the game's content is dominated by AoE weapons that can hit multiple enemies at once. The more changes DE make to the balance and the more new weapons get added the more AoE dominance is getting set in stone.

That is quite natural if to think of it, the game is about killing hordes of enemies standing close to each other and those snipers we have even being great on paper are simply not suited for it.

Yet for some reason the devs are either trying to somehow equalize AoE and non-AoE weaponry or flat out pretend it is all ok and nothing needs to change.

Why instead we don't embrace it and develop this AoE prevalence further? I'm looking at the games like Path of Exile: there you can modify your attacks in most curious ways making even the most modest fireball viable for killing crowds.

Why don't Warframe have something similar. Mods that change the effects of the weapons. A Rubico doesn't need even more damage, why don't we put there a mod making its shots chain between the enemies at the cost of sacrificing damage. Why don't we make Opticor fire a cone of beams instead of just one. Why don't we make Soma P have bullet magnetism so that you don't have to target every single enemy. Why don't have a weaker spectral copy of Ignis Wraith following us around and helping to kill things. Why don't we then combine multible such mods to make killing the crowds even more effective.

Someone may ague that it takes the identity of some weapons like Amprex away. But let's be realistic, nothing takes away more identity than the meta being dominated by a single digit number of popular weapons just because they are capable of damaging multiple enemies at once.

I don't pretend I came up with the greatest idea possible, maybe someone out there has a better one, but something needs to be changed.

[Kaiga]

I think you're confusing the "aoe meta" for the kuva bramma.

Yes, guns like the shedu acceltra zarr and kuva ogris are strong, but they all pale in comparison to the potential output and sheer explosive volume of that particular weapon.

I still see people using rifles and shotguns in sorties and veiljack. But in terms of speedclearing, yeah you're going to take the gun that does it statistically the fastest, i.e. the bramma.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Kaiga

[Savire510]

Yeah, aoe meta is just bramma.

Bramma needs to be nerfed.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

in other games, AoE weapons like Launchers are prevented from being the optimal strategy by giving them poor ammo economy: you can usually carry a LOT of bullets for your rifle, but only a few Rockets or grenades. we've had changes like this in the past to the Ogris, and they work, to a degree. they'd have to significantly change Bramma to have about as many Arrows as Lenz for example. and of course, these changes wouldn't be welcomed by everyone.

anyway, i'm sure many of us can still appreciate the variety of having single target hit-scan guns, and they do serve a purpose in certain modes like Eidolons and Index, where AoE can actually be a detriment more than a benefit.

[Uhkretor]

19 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

How Do We Break out of the AoE Meta

Remove it.

A simple problem requires a simple solution... But since DE wants this approach to be an option, they'll simply adjust it to become an option.

 

And its not Bramma. Its Brammoon, get the name right already.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Uhkretor

[Xaero]

22 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

How Do We Break out of the AoE Meta

We nerf it to the ground.

[Savire510]

5 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

And its not Bramma. Its Brammoon, get the name right already.

meh, catchmoons and plasmors arent that good honestly, they really fall out on the higher levels. Bramma beats both of them, no doubt.

[Uhkretor]

3 minutes ago, Savire510 said:

catchmoons and plasmors arent that good honestly, they really fall out on the higher levels.

Now they do.

[(PSN)Viveeeh]

10 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

28 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

How Do We Break out of the AoE Meta

Remove it.

Ignore it?

[Uhkretor]

Just now, (PS4)Viveeeh said:

Ignore it?

... That doesn't solve the problem. Removing it solves it permanently.

[Aldain]

Remove the "How" "Do" "out" and "of" from the title and you have your answer.

[Katinka]

Perhaps a solution would be to change the game to not reward mass murder and instead increase rewards of mission completion?  If every mission had a standardised Affinity reward multiple small chances at every mod currently available in that missions (e.g. 20 chances of getting Vitality at 10% each) then a stealth approach would be as rewarding (in a literal sense, if not psychologically so) as a mass murder spree aoe approach.

[ant99999]

You're talking about the AoE narrowing down to the Bramma, but don't forget that the Bramma isn't the first 'weapon to rule them all'. Warframe time after time comes back to 1 to 2 weapons capable of killing multiple enemies ruling the lower level activities (which are to be honest the major part of the game content)

There was the Tonkor meta, then there was the Mirage-Simulor meta, then Arka Plasmor, then Wukong-Exodia Contagion, then Catchmoon, then Acceltra, now Bramma.

Not to mention we have melee, which is also AoE, changing from polearms to whips to whatever is popular now, becoming more and more powerful relative to firearms.

They nerf one, just to introduce another, to then make the whole class of weapons prevalent - all thanks to AoE.

[Loza03]

Giving everything else AoE would just strengthen the AoE meta. Yes, you can technically use more weapons... but those weapons have now lost part of what made them unique to begin with.

There's a fundamental difference between Warframe and Path of Exile - Warframe is partly a shooter action game, whilst Path of Exile is fully a Diablo-style RPG. For as many concessions as Warframe gives to the integrity of its weapon sandbox for the purpose of RPG mechanics, likewise the RPG mechanics need to make concession to the shooter action.

 

In a shooter, AoE weapons have a different 'role' to single-target weapons, have a different role to full-auto rifles. The prevalence of AoE is because they are too powerful and break out of that role. To use TF2 terminology, AoE weapons are 'power' weapons, and single target weapons are 'pick' weapons, with full-auto usually falling somewhere in between. Power weapons are usually intended to be really good at clearing out fodder targets, but usually have usability drawbacks or don't deal enough single-target damage to take down particularly beefy targets that easily. Pick weapons, likewise, deal a ton of damage that lets them easily take out beefy, and take out squishier, but also high-value single targets fast enough that they can't react properly. And a full-auto weapon serves somewhere in the middle, only being really viable on one target at a time, but switching rapidly.

Warframe's problem is that enemy EHP is sufficiently borked that unless it's a full-on raid boss, there's no DPS-related reason to not use AoE. Beefy targets die just as instantly. Alternatively, the EHP is so bloated that everything now has a health range of what was previously a heavy unit to a full-on raid boss. Either way, you're either going to have a meta where one specific type is disproportionately valued over the other.

[Uhkretor]

2 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

You're talking about the AoE narrowing down to the Bramma, but don't forget that the Bramma isn't the first 'weapon to rule them all'. Warframe time after time comes back to 1 to 2 weapons capable of killing multiple enemies ruling the lower level activities (which are to be honest the major part of the game content)

There was the Tonkor meta, then there was the Mirage-Simulor meta, then Arka Plasmor, then Wukong-Exodia Contagion, then Catchmoon, then Acceltra, now Bramma.

Not to mention we have melee, which is also AoE, changing from polearms to whips to whatever is popular now, becoming more and more powerful relative to firearms.

They nerf one, just to introduce another, to then make the whole class of weapons prevalent - all thanks to AoE.

Which is why I said:

16 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Remove it.

A simple problem requires a simple solution... But since DE wants this approach to be an option, they'll simply adjust it to become an option.

[Savire510]

1 minute ago, Katinka said:

Perhaps a solution would be to change the game to not reward mass murder and instead increase rewards of mission completion?  If every mission had a standardised Affinity reward multiple small chances at every mod currently available in that missions (e.g. 20 chances of getting Vitality at 10% each) then a stealth approach would be as rewarding (in a literal sense, if not psychologically so) as a mass murder spree aoe approach.

actually you could do stealth missions with bramma.

[(PSN)Viveeeh]

2 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... That doesn't solve the problem. Removing it solves it permanently.

I don't know, it solves my problem. I don't care if my fellow players are shooting their Brammas all over the place, just don't make it too bright. If you don't want the meta, don't play the meta. If you enjoy the meta, play the meta. Non-meta stuff can be op enough to delete enemies fast enough to be successful, so not the meta is the only viable solution. Why do we care too much about it then?

[Drachnyn]

Warframe abilities will always overtake any weapon in clear speed so no point in nerfing the weaker option. Much more interesting would be bigger enemy variety with more engaging enemies that promote pinpoint accuracy. Take the nox for example: at any meaningful level you'll need a few shots with the bramma simply because it cant hit the head. A Sniper rifle meanwhile is much more appropriate for that job. If everything in the game is fodder enemies, then no wonder the best AoE weapon will be best. On top of that just nerfing the bramma will not help other guns in any way. Melee weapons are still king in damage output and AoE (in terms of weapon).

Bramma and Catchmoon are some of the few weapons that could compete with how strong melee weapons are. At this point DE might aswell just remove guns completely if they want them to be that bad.

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Viveeeh:

I don't know, it solves my problem. I don't care if my fellow players are shooting their Brammas all over the place, just don't make it too bright. If you don't want the meta, don't play the meta. If you enjoy the meta, play the meta. Non-meta stuff can be op enough to delete enemies fast enough to be successful, so not the meta is the only viable solution. Why do we care too much about it then?

People care about it because they want the biggest damage dealt number on the mission endscreen even though that stat is entirely pointless. I hope the mission UI rework just removes it entirely.

[Uhkretor]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said:

I don't know, it solves my problem.

... And you aren't including yourself in the problem so its everyone's problem except yourself.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said:

Why do we care too much about it then?

Because we can... I could be painting a whole spectacular thing to justify it but no... Its simply because we can.

Now, the question is, do you care as much as we do? Or are you trying to associate yourself with the rest by false caring through self-contradiction?

[Uhkretor]

2 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I hope the mission UI rework just removes it entirely.

inb4 crying threads everywhere

[ant99999]

5 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Which is why I said:

23 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Remove it.

A simple problem requires a simple solution... But since DE wants this approach to be an option, they'll simply adjust it to become an option.

That may be an option of course. If we ignore the usual raging reaction of the commuinty to nerfing things that is.

I am personally fine with it. Or I would be if it didn't make warframe abilities dominate the weapons entirely. So you would need to nerf them as well...

Yeah, DE won't do that.

[(PSN)Viveeeh]

10 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

People care about it because they want the biggest damage dealt number on the mission endscreen even though that stat is entirely pointless. I hope the mission UI rework just removes it entirely.

Oh yes, they do care about that too much. Am I a bad person if I say that if they can't get over that screen and force themselves to use meta weapons which they don't even enjoy to boost that one stat, then just let them? If they want to create problems for themselves so much, well, then just let them do it? At one point they'll realize what's wrong and they'll stop.

Edited May 7, 2020 by (PS4)Viveeeh

[Uhkretor]

AoE was fine back when Ogris and Angstrum were the only explosive weaponry, for example.

 

But then again, the game does change a lot. I would be satisfied if it actually changed with a proper implementation of something at the first try without breaking the overall balance... Which leads us to this situation.

 

"Power fantasy" is a poor excuse for the crap they're doing.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Uhkretor

[(PSN)Viveeeh]

5 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Now, the question is, do you care as much as we do? Or are you trying to associate yourself with the rest by false caring through self-contradiction?

Sorry, didn't want to do that, included something from my own language I shouldn't have to, sounds so differently in English now that you mentioned.

I just wanted to express, this shouldn't bother anyone. Just play how you like playing. I don't mind if others one click kill every enemies in a 10m radius, if that's what they enjoy.