Hard mode brought back bullet sponge (Dont Nerf it though)

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

(i was told that this content wasnt supposed to be a form of "endgame". I still want to leave this here as i dont feel DE's recent content has ventured far from simple bullet sponge type of difficulty and no diificulty at all, and i would like to talk about it.)

Is it safe to say that bullet sponge is not a form of enjoyable difficulty to the warframe playerbase? Rng is also not enjoyable difficulty when it decides if you pass or fail a mission. 

How do i know?

Correct me if im wrong as i have not researched much about the human brain, but the reason bullet sponge and "rng deaths" are bad forms of difficulty, has a lot to do with humans being an intelligent species. Games are supposed to grab onto (a) section(s) of a persons brain such as memory, reflex, cognition, etc.. and Test that part of the person brain, with the difficulty of the testing ranging from easy to intense, testing.

With that being the case, what part of the brain does Bullet Sponge and Rng Deaths Test? Memory? no. Cognition? no. Reflex? hardly.

The best answer is no part of the brain is being tested (exculding endurance), especially not Rng since Rng is not even dependent on ones brain, its entirely dependent on digitial dice being rolled so it isnt even classified as difficulty... 

 

There are many forms of enjoyable difficulty that i would like for the devs to explore. Ive mentioned 3 popular ones that allow millions of possible fun games that a person could create using them.

 

(also to explain why i dont want see the new gamemode get nerfed is because it would be a normal mission without bullet sponge)

Edited June 29, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[ES-Flinter]

Maybe I'm misinformed, but are the enemies in hard mode only lv. 150? Even with an extra defense boost it will be hard to not kill them, if someone accidentally click a button while sneezing.

And I enjoy "bullet-sponges". I'm tired of killing all enemies with the press of one button. Sure it's not harder, but for me it's still funnier.

Edited June 29, 2020 by ES-Flinter

[Marine027]

Hard mode sadly is just to satisfy the people that see challange in this for some reason and screamed for it, DE clarified that it is not connected or supposed to be any kind of endgame content. It just will exist for people who not want to wait 40 minutes Survival for it to get "challanging".

Sadly elitists will claim it will get "nerfed" anyway and brought down to casuals, not like thats natural considering it gives Mastery and all as far i know and DE never will lock people out of such.

People need to accept that there is no endgame in online games that keep updating and evolving, if so not for long atleast due gear and such keeps scaling.

People need ot stop demand content, this way we got Nightwave, i prefer Warframe when i can come back to it any time and not feel forcedto do things becuase they can be gone after, a game should let you feel you can catch up and not feel left behind while still do things in a reasonable time and manner.

Biggest problem of most MMO's, people focus to much on the end today and not the way towards it, why we getting MMORPG's with countless uninspired fetch quests in between becuase imagiantion and story telling is not allowed becuase the "real game" starts at the end.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

2 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Maybe I'm misinformed, but are the enemies in hard mode only lv. 150? Even with an extra defense boost it will be hard to not kill them, if someone accidentally click a button while sneezing.

And I enjoy "bullet-sponges". I'm tired of killing all enemues with the press of one button. Sure it not harder, but for me it's still funnier.

so instead of killing 100 enemies in 10 minutes

 

youd rather kill 1 in 10 minutes?

Edited June 29, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[ES-Flinter]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

so instead of killing 100 enemies in 10 minutes

 

youd rather kill 1 in 10 minutes?

Yes.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

Just now, ES-Flinter said:

Yes.

._.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

._.

I can try to explain it. If I kill 100 enemies in 10min I will not remember a single one of them. It will be just forgotten time for me. Only the loot that I gained in that mission shows that I played. But If I have to fight just one enemy for a longer time I will remeber it. Even if the memory is negative, because it killed me a few times I will still remember that I played the mission.

Edited June 29, 2020 by ES-Flinter

[Sevek7]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Is it safe to say that bullet sponge is not a form of enjoyable difficulty to the warframe playerbase?

I think bullet sponges actually could be an enjoyable difficulty. Warframe is a game about preparation rather than performance, and we have many ways to prepare for bullet sponges. For example: Banshee, Chroma, Mirage, Volt, etc... can be used to increase damage by a lot. I think the previous bullet sponges were not well received because they appeared randomly, and so people could not prepare for them. The most recent example was the Wolf of Saturn Six. He would appear randomly, often when people were not expecting a bullet sponge, and so they brought frames like Inaros that have no benefit besides being able to take a lot of hits. So in that case it was understandable that people complained.

We could have missions where bullet sponges are guaranteed to appear, and then players could prepare for bullet sponges. That would be fine.

[Drachnyn]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb ES-Flinter:

Maybe I'm misinformed, but are the enemies in hard mode only lv. 150? Even with an extra defense boost it will be hard to not kill them, if someone accidentally click a button while sneezing.

And I enjoy "bullet-sponges". I'm tired of killing all enemies with the press of one button. Sure it's not harder, but for me it's still funnier.

Enemies are not just +100 levels. Additionally all enemies have double health and on top of that armored enemies have armor enhancement, shielded enemies have the shield enhancement modifier. Those are the same modifiers sortie missions can have.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

1 minute ago, ES-Flinter said:

I can try to explain it. If I kill 100 enemies in 10min I will not remebrr a single one of them. If will be just forgotten time for me. Only the loot show, that I played the mission. But If I have to fight just one enemy but for a longer time I will remeber it. Even if the memory is negative, because he killed me a few times I still know that I played the mission.

oh okay that makes more sense 🤔 i can imagine the satisfaction that could come of that.

 

still, i wish DE would play with the other forms of difficulty more.

9 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Hard mode sadly is just to satisfy the people that see challange in this for some reason and screamed for it, DE clarified that it is not connected or supposed to be any kind of endgame content. It just will exist for people who not want to wait 40 minutes Survival for it to get "challanging".

I have missed that disscusion. Thank you for informing as i almost cracked my neck from turning it so far sideways when i saw "hard mode".

I should have looked deeper into the reasoning for it.

12 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Sadly elitists will claim it will get "nerfed" anyway and brought down to casuals, not like thats natural considering it gives Mastery and all as far i know and DE never will lock people out of such.

Right. I want to say they wont do it as i would assume that they thought about the enemys having too much health would be too much for some players, but kept going because they want it to be that way.

Because doubling the health of enemies is not a type of update that you need to see players reaction to, before knowing if it will be too frustrating for some or most. The math can be done in an hour or 2, by someone who barely passed Algebra

17 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

People need to accept that there is no endgame in online games that keep updating and evolving, if so not for long atleast due gear and such keeps scaling

i dont crave "gear testing" difficulty. I actually crave "reflex testing"

i would love for some cool kill animations after ive succesfully completed certain actions in quick succession. like melee a enemy that jumped at you at the perfect time to knock them in the air, then press the interact button for a parazon finisher

26 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

this way we got Nightwave, i prefer Warframe when i can come back to it any time and not feel forcedto do things becuase they can be gone after, a game should let you feel you can catch up and not feel left behind while still do things in a reasonable time and manner.

nightwave is a lovely addition to the game

27 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Biggest problem of most MMO's, people focus to much on the end today and not the way towards it, why we getting MMORPG's with countless uninspired fetch quests in between becuase imagiantion and story telling is not allowed becuase the "real game" starts at the end

mostly agree

[yarl5000]

19 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

I can try to explain it. If I kill 100 enemies in 10min I will not remeber a single one of them. It will be just forgotten time for me. Only the loot that I gained in that mission shows that I played. But If I have to fight just one enemy for a longer time I will remeber it. Even if the memory is negative, because it killed me a few times I will still remember that I played the mission.

why would you want to have a negative memory for playing a game, which should be more fun. 

Sure if the enemy was a boss I could maybe understand that but like a normal enemy just seems weird to me. 

 

Don't get me wrong I want there to be a good hard mode that is challenging but not bullet sponges. 

[ES-Flinter]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Drachnyn:

Enemies are not just +100 levels. Additionally all enemies have double health and on top of that armored enemies have armor enhancement, shielded enemies have the shield enhancement modifier. Those are the same modifiers sortie missions can have.

Until now I could never see a differnce between sortie enemies with extra defense stats or without, because they all die in one-hit.

Maybe the combination makes a huge differnce. But maybe not.

vor 12 Minuten schrieb (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII:

still, i wish DE would play with the other forms of difficulty more.

On that I agree with you. A challenging enemy needs more than just enough ehp.

vor 11 Minuten schrieb yarl5000:

why would you want to have a negative memory for playing a game, which should be more fun. 

Because a negative memory shows me that I can still become better. And if I kill the enemy next time without any problems it makes me much happier.

Edited June 29, 2020 by ES-Flinter

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb ES-Flinter:

Until now I could never see a differnce between sortie enemies with extra defense stats or without, because they all die in one-hit.

Maybe the combination makes a huge differnce. But maybe not.

From personal experience it makes a pretty big difference. You can still kill enemies fast but you need actually strong gear. Steel path had me adjust my builds for every planet pretty much. Unfortunately it also showed how weak guns are in comparison to melee weapons.

Mesa actually underperforms for quick horde clear because enemies are that tanky. Even Baruuk needs multiple hits for enemies when fully stacked up.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

14 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

I think bullet sponges actually could be an enjoyable difficulty

emphasis on "could"

15 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Warframe is a game about preparation rather than performance, and we have many ways to prepare for bullet sponges. For example: Banshee, Chroma, Mirage, Volt, etc... can be used to increase damage by a lot. I think the previous bullet sponges were not well received because they appeared randomly, and so people could not prepare for them. The most recent example was the Wolf of Saturn Six. He would appear randomly, often when people were not expecting a bullet sponge, and so they brought frames like Inaros that have no benefit besides being able to take a lot of hits. So in that case it was understandable that people complained.

Thats a pretty good explanation of what warframe is, prepartion (which is sorta like cognitive brain testing). Used to be memory + prep back in the raid days.

yes, thats entertaing to some degree. Seeing if your team comp will workout.

good point, ty

29 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

We could have missions where bullet sponges are guaranteed to appear, and then players could prepare for bullet sponges. That would be fine.

ESO

[Nichivo]

I have a hard time believing anyone who cries bullet-sponge in Warframe. Why you ask? Because even though I have watched youtubers cry bullet sponge. I have never experienced the so called slog of killing anything they claim is hard. I have watched them struggle using bad builds, not using things they could to their advantage, like new melee HA mechanics.

Nope! Every time I have seen this mentioned, I went and solo'd that content then optimized my builds for the specific content with scans taken of the enemies, and laughed at how easy the content actually was even without an optimized build. Then I watch in horror as the content gets the difficulty nerfed because of people complaining.

I honestly wish DE would remove the affinity, so people will stop complaining about having to put in effort, or improve their game play.

When did the gaming populace decide, that working for anything in a game is a chore? Seriously I am kinda sick of the enemy didn't die in under an actual second, so it's a sponge mentality. 

What I want to know is if anyone that made it into the test server, was smart enough to thoroughly test the one star chart node, that has potential(even if small) of being actually broken by just a level bump of this nature? Anyone care to guess which node I am talking about? I think it would be funny if it indeed ended up broken. 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

35 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

I have a hard time believing anyone who cries bullet-sponge in Warframe. Why you ask? Because even though I have watched youtubers cry bullet sponge. I have never experienced the so called slog of killing anything they claim is hard. I have watched them struggle using bad builds, not using things they could to their advantage, like new melee HA mechanics.

Nope! Every time I have seen this mentioned, I went and solo'd that content then optimized my builds for the specific content with scans taken of the enemies, and laughed at how easy the content actually was even without an optimized build. Then I watch in horror as the content gets the difficulty nerfed because of people complaining.

I honestly wish DE would remove the affinity, so people will stop complaining about having to put in effort, or improve their game play.

When did the gaming populace decide, that working for anything in a game is a chore? Seriously I am kinda sick of the enemy didn't die in under an actual second, so it's a sponge mentality. 

What I want to know is if anyone that made it into the test server, was smart enough to thoroughly test the one star chart node, that has potential(even if small) of being actually broken by just a level bump of this nature? Anyone care to guess which node I am talking about? I think it would be funny if it indeed ended up broken. 

ive played a 8 hour excvation mission, and a 5 hour survival a few weeks ago, enemies crossing the level 1,000 mark. did it for a an alliance and a clan contest respectively.

 

im aware of builds, for fighting bullet sponges. My problem is its the only direction DE goes. Bullet sponge to a point where it seems it will not end.

 

Ive finally begun to just take my break from warframe though. i think @Sevek7 has put into terms what warframe is verses what I thought it was or was trying to be. A game of prep instead of reflex and "style" (see Devil May Cry or Assassins creed combat for what i mean by style)

it simply isnt my cup of tea. I'll always return to this game but its a shame

Edited June 29, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[Drachnyn]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Nichivo:

I have a hard time believing anyone who cries bullet-sponge in Warframe. Why you ask? Because even though I have watched youtubers cry bullet sponge. I have never experienced the so called slog of killing anything they claim is hard. I have watched them struggle using bad builds, not using things they could to their advantage, like new melee HA mechanics.

Nope! Every time I have seen this mentioned, I went and solo'd that content then optimized my builds for the specific content with scans taken of the enemies, and laughed at how easy the content actually was even without an optimized build. Then I watch in horror as the content gets the difficulty nerfed because of people complaining.

I honestly wish DE would remove the affinity, so people will stop complaining about having to put in effort, or improve their game play.

When did the gaming populace decide, that working for anything in a game is a chore? Seriously I am kinda sick of the enemy didn't die in under an actual second, so it's a sponge mentality. 

What I want to know is if anyone that made it into the test server, was smart enough to thoroughly test the one star chart node, that has potential(even if small) of being actually broken by just a level bump of this nature? Anyone care to guess which node I am talking about? I think it would be funny if it indeed ended up broken. 

Just because you do something for longer doesnt mean it's harder. If the enemy does interesting things throughout the fight, then sure, let them be tanky. But if all that comes from being tanky is just having to punch them for longer then that's not really all that interesting. 

I'm not exactly sure what node you are referencing but i can say that archwing missions felt pretty awful. I wanted to feel the full extent of it but "unfortunately" jordas golem didnt get the level bump.

[Nichivo]

1 minute ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

ive played a 8 hour excvation mission, and a 5 hour survival a few weeks ago, enemies crossing the level 1,000 mark.

 

im aware of builds, for fighting bullet sponges. My problem is its the only direction DE goes. Bullet sponge to a point where it seems it will not end.

I am an endless solo player since the scaling changes to armour happened 3k is the new 300. I just don't agree with those that thought railjack enemies among other things pre revisit were sponges.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

12 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

I am an endless solo player since the scaling changes to armour happened 3k is the new 300. I just don't agree with those that thought railjack enemies among other things pre revisit were sponges.

Before armor scaling changes is when i did the 8 hour run

 

Prehaps our definitions of bullet sponge are not the same. I begin to classify enemies as bullet sponge when i have to bust out a weapon like the Redeemer to 1 shot an enemy instead of sticking with my Glaxion Vandal.

(Really anything that begins to force you out of a build, ventures further into bullet sponge.)

For me, using half a clip on an enemy for like 5 seconds is my max tolerance level before i fall asleep during a fight 😂 just shooting that same spot for a long period of time feels pointless. Ill just call it bullet sponge afterwards as i got to change my build.

 

 

I'm a person who wishes the Lato would stay a viable choice despite the difficulty of the mission. I crave difficulty that tests your brain's reflexes in short burst (or a long time just as long as the enemy im fighting has a large variety of different attacks).

I stuck with warframe since its release to ps4, thinking that what i just described in the previous paragraph was the goal for warframe for this long. Prep + build restrictions seems to be the real goal though, which iam not fond of

Edited June 29, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[Amazerath]

My opinion is that there's a difference between remembering something that costs you time and remembering something that requires you to grow as a player.

Emptying three magazines to kill a single grineer lancer doesn't require you to be skillful. It doesn't require you to think. It doesn't require you to be good. It only requires you to be patient.

However, dying three times because none of your standard strategies are working against a boss, and then having to come up with something new is a different matter. It requires you to take new things into account. It requires you to grow. It teaches you player skills that you will use from that point onward, sometimes even in different games.

As it stands, The Steel Path does not teach player skill. It teaches min-maxing. Do we need a game mode solely for that? Not really, we already have the Wiki. But many players claim that it's enjoyable to shoot at things and see them survive. Well, my question to those players is: what is stopping you from removing the mods from your weapons and experiencing that on a level 30 mission? Why do you need a new game mode to do something you can already do on your own? You can even go as far as creating your own custom difficulty by choosing how many mods to remove, or reducing their ranks. Yet nobody seems to do it even though they claim they want enemies that survive.

Self nerfing has been my hard mode since 2015 or 2016. I never felt the need to go as far as to remove mods, but I pick weapons and warframes that I know are not good for some of the missions I'm running. It's pretty fun and it teaches you a lot. I recommend it.

 

[Nichivo]

3 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Just because you do something for longer doesnt mean it's harder. If the enemy does interesting things throughout the fight, then sure, let them be tanky. But if all that comes from being tanky is just having to punch them for longer then that's not really all that interesting. 

I'm not exactly sure what node you are referencing but i can say that archwing missions felt pretty awful. I wanted to feel the full extent of it but "unfortunately" jordas golem didnt get the level bump.

Well that statement entirely falls flat. Common sense alone dictates that if an enemy lives long enough, or is not removed from the fight entirely, it will pose a threat if more enemies show up. A longer TTK always means you need better positioning, in order to reduce the number of enemies that can attack you at once. Granted that assumes those enemies can even damage you. Which lets face it many in Warframe can't. 

Plus anyone who has been around a while, has bore witness to enemies with mechanics that made you think, and plan ahead to be successful. Get nerfed like old prosecutors. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Nichivo:

Well that statement entirely falls flat. Common sense alone dictates that if an enemy lives long enough, or is not removed from the fight entirely, it will pose a threat if more enemies show up. A longer TTK always means you need better positioning, in order to reduce the number of enemies that can attack you at once. Granted that assumes those enemies can even damage you. Which lets face it many in Warframe can't. 

Plus anyone who has been around a while, has bore witness to enemies with mechanics that made you think, and plan ahead to be successful. Get nerfed like old prosecutors. 

"But if all that comes from being tanky is just having to punch them for longer then that's not really all that interesting."

Please read this sentence aswell. Railjack enemies were that because they couldnt defeat you realistically: railjack got to 0 health? no problem just death's door tank for a minute and then repair. If an enemy cant do anything to you but still takes long to kill, that's not interesting.

For the most part I think steel path strikes a good balance there.

[wtrmlnjuc]

Bullet sponges are boring as hell to fight against. Boring before, boring now. Even worse, the AI and animation can still be commonly glitchy as hell and makes shots that are supposed to hit, miss because bugframe.  

Edited June 29, 2020 by wtrmlnjuc

[Nichivo]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

For me, using half a clip on an enemy for like 5 seconds is my max tolerance level before i fall asleep during a fight 😂 just shooting that same spot for a long period of time feels pointless. Ill just call it bullet sponge afterwards as i got to change my build.

I am on the opposite end of the spectrum. Anything that dies that fast is so mind numbing boring, and trivial. It could actually put me to sleep.

I mean seriously what fun is something, if you never have to use any effort to improve, or achieve something.  Overcoming obstacles is a mini reward in itself. 

It would be like being at Steamboat, getting a nice fresh drop of powder. and knowing they had not groomed Rolodex in a week, but sitting in the lodge because there is snow on the ground. I don't understand some people.

[Nichivo]

6 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Please read this sentence aswell. Railjack enemies were that because they couldnt defeat you realistically: railjack got to 0 health? no problem just death's door tank for a minute and then repair. If an enemy cant do anything to you but still takes long to kill, that's not interesting.

Why did I not see you posting this to all the people failing railjack missions, and claiming it was to hard? If that was the case... Why exactly did DE nerf everything in railjack that had any chance of posing any problem. It was supposed to be a group play, and yet now there isn't even a need for command intrinsic.

I disagree entirely.