It's not about difficulty. Warframe doesn't have a flagship content..

[Gabbynaru]

3 minutes ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Completely off topic, but this gave me a great writing prompt for a short story.

"What do gods do when they are bored."

Isn't that One Punch Man in a nutshell?

[Magus_Tahir]

3 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Isn't that One Punch Man in a nutshell?

Hmmm good point. Also just about anything by Sir Terry Pratchett, and Neil Gaiman. XD

 

[Angwah]

2 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Have we played the same mode? Cause SP makes no difference what so ever, it's just a waste of time. I've used the exact same builds I use normally (none of which are meta, I've made them myself cause they're fun), an the only enemy that was ever close to killing me was boredom.

Apparently not :-) Because if I take my Trinity in there and let my 3 and 4 buff lapse with too many mobs around I die. If I let my Ivara who doesn't run with a vitality mod, step into an infested poison cloud I die. If I burst into a new tile with lotsa mobs with Titania with just Razorwing active and simply start blasting I die. Just Frost's Snow Globe or Wisp's Reservoirs won't keep a defense target alive. I can no longer kill a demolisher with any random weapon in my Arsenal. Nor do an Interception with a frame which can't CC properly. I could go on and on...

All of the above, and as said, lots more you can do in normal mode without at any point being threatened with dying, let alone a mission loss. It matters very little what you bring and where you bring it. There are staggeringly little nodes where you can't enter with a new lvl1 unforma'd frame or weapons and not expect to come out on top.

Now, as I said, it's still a power fantasy, and you're still an unstoppable engine of destruction and mayhem. I also stated SP is just a first step in the direction of more challenging content. You still cut through the opposition like a hot knife through butter, but if you say it makes no difference at all, that you don't have to work a little harder and pay some attention to what you're doing and what frame, weapons and builds you take where, well, that is not my experience, nor of anyone I personally know.

 

 

[Gabbynaru]

5 minutes ago, Angwah said:

I also stated SP is just a first step in the direction of more challenging content.

I have to disagree with this. As I've said previously, the only difference SP makes is that it wastes my time. You said before that you can just enter any random node and have no doubts regarding your victory over the mobs there or the mission objective. That's SP in a nutshell as well. Nothing changed, the outcome of the fight between me and the enemies has been has remained the same. The fact that they're taking longer to be killed doesn't make the mode more enjoyable or challenging, just more frustrating and insulting. SP is everything wrong with Warframe on full display.

8 minutes ago, Angwah said:

You still cut through the opposition like a hot knife through butter, but if you say it makes no difference at all, that you don't have to work a little harder and pay some attention to what you're doing and what frame, weapons and builds you take where, well, that is not my experience, nor of anyone I personally know.

Which just proves my previous point further. The fact that I feel no difference in Steel Path means my thousands of hours of investment have not gone unrewarded and invalidated, unlike what OP and some players claim.

[844448]

On 2020-07-27 at 9:57 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Flagship content is supposed to be designed for that power. Not to be difficult for difficulty's sake, but to be engaging; and to utilize and flesh out the gear and mechanics that exist in the game.

And now, explain what do you have to make things engaging and utilize and flesh out the gear and mechanics in the game?

[Angwah]

10 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

I have to disagree with this. As I've said previously, the only difference SP makes is that it wastes my time. You said before that you can just enter any random node and have no doubts regarding your victory over the mobs there or the mission objective. That's SP in a nutshell as well. Nothing changed, the outcome of the fight between me and the enemies has been has remained the same. The fact that they're taking longer to be killed doesn't make the mode more enjoyable or challenging, just more frustrating and insulting. SP is everything wrong with Warframe on full display.

Obviously if you pick a random node in SP, and a frame with a loadout suited for that node, you will have no issues and the outcome will not be in doubt, even if I contest that with most frames you can be as careless and inattentive as in normal mode (yes, some frames are indeed OP).

No, I said I can take any frame and especially weapons, even lvl 1's just out of the oven, and take it almost wherever I want and come out on top. Frames, weapons and builds matter little in normal mode. You don't even need to use your frame's abilities. I mean, you may say you can mess around and do whatever you want in SP like in normal mode and not find yourself pressing 'x' or aborting the mission, but it is simply not true. There are plenty of threads calling to reduce the solo spawn rate, or people timing out against Vay Hek or the Ropalolyst, or being unable to bring down a Treasurer, or their ranged weapons doing jack-all, etc...

Quite frankly there are only a few edge-cases which can be classified as bullet-sponges, like Ropalolyst's shield mode for example, but most enemies go down plenty fast if you mod for them, and that is actually validating all those forma's, fancy mods, rivens and specific builds I put in my frames and weapons.

Anyway, I do not think SP is perfect, far from it, but yes, for me it is definitely a first step in the right direction, so lets agree to disagree :-)

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Warframe is literally the only game that I can think of that actually DOES validate your time investment. People forget how weak and pathetic they were when they started the game. They forget to look at themselves and realize how insanely powerful they have become since then.

In any other game, you gain power and for what? Nothing, the enemies gain power as well. You're literally spinning your wheels in place. Warframe on the other hand? You gain power and you feel it. Starting from a pathetic weakling that had problems with one level 4 Grineer and getting to the point where I wipe entire ESO maps at the press of a button, that is real progression. That is real validation of my investment.

So that statement that I quoted, that's completely wrong. I didn't spend all this time collecting that gear and improving it for no reason. All that time spent led to me being an unstoppable god. So all that time was very well spent.

Alright, you became "an unstoppable god", now what? What was the point of however many hours you spent becoming "an unstoppable god"? I'm not asking in metaphysical sense, but in the context of Warframe itself? You gathered all the gear in the game, what are you supposed to do with it? You became "an unstoppable god" back when you were about MR 9 or 10. You've been "an unstoppable god" ever since. What does the game let you do with your unstoppable godhood? What was the point of all the gear you've been collecting? Where is the gameplay that you would apply your unstoppable godhood towards? It's certainly not the starchart, or sorties, or ESO\Arbitrations. You can play those for sure, but they either access-limited or have dumb mechanics that cripple your unstoppable godhood. Nor is there a huge reason to apply your unstoppable godhood to those game modes, since they don't reward you in any relevant way for becoming "an unstoppable god". You've become "an unstoppable god" for nothing. And the game doesn't care to let you flesh out your unstoppable godhood in any meaningful way. You've just spent however many hours of your life on a game that tricked you with empty promises, psychological conditioning, and slot machine mechanics into playing it. And maybe you had fun, good for you. Now what?

[Gabbynaru]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Alright, you became "an unstoppable god", now what?

Enjoy the game without any strings attached or pointless limits. Such a strange concept, I know, playing a game for the fun of it.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

11 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And now, explain what do you have to make things engaging and utilize and flesh out the gear and mechanics in the game?

Read my previous posts here, I talked about it. High starting level endless missions with relevant rewards and no dumb mechanical restrictions like in ESO, SP, and Arbitrations. People are so used to content islands that they cannot appreciate normal gameplay anymore. If Warframe had kuva/endo excavations with scaling excavator HP and scaling rewards + tokens, and no meta requirements for any specific warframes people would be playing those. If Warframe had Void survivals where you could reroll the same relic or turn all your relics radiant after a certain rotation, and/or farm vaulted relics, people would be playing those. It's really just a matter of mission design. There's nothing complicated or impossible about it. It just takes someone who actually plays the game to design those missions. Again, not rocket science.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

17 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Enjoy the game without any strings attached or pointless limits. Such a strange concept, I know, playing a game for the fun of it.

How? What part of the game am I supposed to enjoy? A part where I can actually exercise my "unstoppable godhood" simply doesn't exist. Which is exactly what I've been talking about.

EDIT: Warframe's gear progression is designed to turn you into "an unstoppable god" sure. But the game's gameplay isn't designed to accomodate for it. There's a reason why "those other games" you've mentioned use a thing called "balance" to balance tools you acquire over the course of your playthrough with the gameplay that you encounter. I know it's a strange concept.

EDIT2: And incentivize engaging with that gameplay extrinsically as well as intrinsically.

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

How? What part of the game am I supposed to enjoy? A part where I can actually exercise my "unstoppable godhood" simply doesn't exist. Which is exactly what I've been talking about.

The entire game exists for that. If you cannot enjoy it, the problem isn't the game. Stop deluding yourself into believing that the game is infinite, it isn't and never will be. You'll always, without fail, end up at a point where you know it inside out, and if you cannot enjoy it at that point, then there's nothing anyone can do about it.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

7 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

The entire game exists for that. If you cannot enjoy it, the problem isn't the game. Stop deluding yourself into believing that the game is infinite, it isn't and never will be. You'll always, without fail, end up at a point where you know it inside out, and if you cannot enjoy it at that point, then there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Read the edits.

Games can and are being designed with replayability in mind. This isn't rocket science either. Nobody's talking about infinite replayability. But it's actually crazy rare for a game not to have a flagship content. Because that's the first thing you're supposed to design for any game. Including Warframe. The problem with Warframe is, its many budding attempts at creating a flagship content that would finally define the game are either outgrown overtime and never updated, or being introduced stillborn with gameplay-crippling secondary mechanics and/or utter lack of replayability incentives.

[Gabbynaru]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Games can and are being designed with replayability in mind

You're telling me playing this game for over 1000 flipping hours when most games can't even do 60 isn't replayability?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, Gabbynaru said:

You're telling me playing this game for over 1000 flipping hours when most games can't even do 60 isn't replayability?

Dude, you're comparing an online game with offline games. Online games are played for years. 1000 hours is nothing. By 1000 hours you'll barely get around to farming all the warframes in the game. And not because there's so much content, but because everything is so f@cking slow. Warframe is riddled with timegates, random loot chances, daily limiters and daily caps. That are there to eat your time or force you to pay.

While a game like Skyrim or Dark Souls would usually just give you an item or offer you a fixed investment requirement to achieve any specific goal, in online games everything down to the last fig your character wears is RNG-gated. And RNG grind eats A LOT OF TIME. 

[Gabbynaru]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Dude, you're comparing an online game with offline games. Online games are played for years. 1000 hours is nothing. By 1000 hours you'll barely get around to farming all the warframes in the game. And not because there's so much content, but because everything is so f@cking slow. Warframe is riddled with timegates, random loot chances, daily limiters and daily caps. That are there to eat your time or force you to pay.

While a game like Skyrim or Dark Souls would usually just give you an item or offer you a fixed investment requirement to achieve any specific goal, in online games everything down to the last fig your character wears is RNG-gated. And RNG grind eats A LOT OF TIME. 

Still, if the core gameplay loop wasn't good and was non-existent as you say, you wouldn't get players to invest even those 60 hours.

[Hypernaut1]

Stop trying to make "flagship content" happen. It's not going to happen and no one really knows what you mean by it... Including you

[844448]

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Read my previous posts here, I talked about it. High starting level endless missions with relevant rewards and no dumb mechanical restrictions like in ESO, SP, and Arbitrations. People are so used to content islands that they cannot appreciate normal gameplay anymore. If Warframe had kuva/endo excavations with scaling excavator HP and scaling rewards + tokens, and no meta requirements for any specific warframes people would be playing those. If Warframe had Void survivals where you could reroll the same relic or turn all your relics radiant after a certain rotation, and/or farm vaulted relics, people would be playing those. It's really just a matter of mission design. There's nothing complicated or impossible about it. It just takes someone who actually plays the game to design those missions. Again, not rocket science.

And I thought you said it shouldn't be difficult for the sake of difficulty but then, increased level will make things more difficult to beat.

No dumb mechanical restrictions? Funny because every game I see always put mechanical restrictions no matter the form. Balance? Mechanical restriction on how strong you can be when facing enemies. Challenge? Put another restriction so what are you going to do?

And meta? You can play without meta, even SP can be done with Excalibur provided you know the gear and mechanics, and thinking about it, it's "flagship" based on your criteria

And you didn't give any kind of "flagship" here, just showing yourself wanting scaling rewards which isn't going to be anything "flagship" whatsoever so now tell me, what kind of "flagship" you're talking about? You gave zero example on how you're going to do to make things engaging and utilize and flesh out the gear and mechanics in game as "flagship".

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Still, if the core gameplay loop wasn't good and was non-existent as you say, you wouldn't get players to invest even those 60 hours.

"Good" core gameplay loop and "addicting" core gameplay loop are two different things. Both can get players playing for a long time.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

23 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And I thought you said it shouldn't be difficult for the sake of difficulty but then, increased level will make things more difficult to beat.

 No, please, read the quote again. Difficulty for the sake of difficulty would be making void traces unvacuumable because you want people to stop in their tracks and manually pick them up. Difficulty for the sake of difficulty would be giving enemies immunity shields that can only be removed by Operators. Difficulty for the sake of difficulty would be making enemies that are so unkillable you can't possibly fight them without some cheap counter-mechanic. Difficulty for the sake of difficulty would be designing an intentionally bad UI so people wouldn't use certain abilities "too much"... Or adding drones that make large groups of enemies completely immune to damage... Or in case of levels and enemies, making them not just 100+ levels higher, but adding health, armor and shields modifiers on top of that, plus gear item cooldowns, and other restrictive mission modifiers, as well as cooldowns on some abilities so you wouldn't be able to spam them the way you would in every single other game mode... I hope you're getting what I'm saying here.

35 minutes ago, 844448 said:

No dumb mechanical restrictions? Funny because every game I see always put mechanical restrictions no matter the form. Balance? Mechanical restriction on how strong you can be when facing enemies. Challenge? Put another restriction so what are you going to do?

I already answered this.

36 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And meta? You can play without meta, even SP can be done with Excalibur provided you know the gear and mechanics, and thinking about it, it's "flagship" based on your criteria

SP needs rewards and gear restrictions removed to be flagship. It's still just another starchart and having too many missions is a problem in its own. Personally, now that I have to think about it again, I'd suggest what I suggested several years ago: endless raids. As in a number of readily available endless missions with some level of variability in their content that would start at higher level than normal missions and provide more substantial rewards without a 24h restriction on them. Again, there's nothing complicated about this. DE been stumbling over and around this stuff for years, somehow never actually hitting the spot. ESO, Arbitrations, SP are all variations on the same idea that they never got right. Either rewards are sh't or difficulty is unfair, or mission design is too meta-oriented and strangles variety.

45 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And you didn't give any kind of "flagship" here, just showing yourself wanting scaling rewards which isn't going to be anything "flagship" whatsoever so now tell me, what kind of "flagship" you're talking about? You gave zero example on how you're going to do to make things engaging and utilize and flesh out the gear and mechanics in game as "flagship".

...As I said,

3 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

High starting level endless missions with relevant rewards

It really as simple as that. Sandbox missions where you can play however you want as long as you want. That don't have any weird internal mechanics and just let people play the game and kill things, while rewarding the experience and the time put into getting there.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Stop trying to make "flagship content" happen. It's not going to happen and no one really knows what you mean by it... Including you

*sigh* just go with peace.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Still, if the core gameplay loop wasn't good and was non-existent as you say, you wouldn't get players to invest even those 60 hours.

It's actually much more difficult to make a game that would constitute for a great 60h experience, than a sh'tty addictive game that would steal thousands of hours away from you. Addictive =/= Good.

[Gabbynaru]

6 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

It really as simple as that. Sandbox missions where you can play however you want as long as you want. That don't have any weird internal mechanics and just let people play the game and kill things, while rewarding the experience and the time put into getting there.

How is that supposed to be flagship? Flagship means the best that a company has to offer, and for a video game, that's the gameplay. None a singular, exclusionary content island.

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

It's actually much more difficult to make a game that would constitute for a great 60h experience, than a sh'tty addictive game that would take thousands of hours away from you. Addictive =/= Good.

No, Destiny went for addictive rather than good, that's why the game (at least back when I played it) was so S#&$. Warframe's gameplay is genuinely good, and if you think otherwise, tell me examples within the genre that are actually better. I don't mean better cause they drop you shiny guns every 5 nanoseconds, I mean genuinely better gameplay.

[SenorClipClop]

On 2020-07-27 at 7:19 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I think people invoke difficulty in Warframe when they don't really know what they want and just feel like they have to say something.

When I invoke difficulty, I know precisely what I want. I want this game to demand high-action engagement based on its own core principles. Warframe is quick, flashy and really fast. Where most shooters have you plodding along the ground, Warframes pick off headshots as they sail through the air. Currently you can reduce the game to standing still (or holing the W key) and spamming a couple buttons through the majority of content with zero trade-off, which, since it is the most efficient way to play, a lot of us do. The fruits of this gameplay style really kill the engagement and turn it into a lazy farm game.

When I say I want Warframe to be difficult, I mean I want it to be more engaging, more stimulating than its low-effort-high-efficacy reductions. I want Warframe to make this cool gamefeel it's made actually matter. I want to be pushed intently toward high-speed, high-action combat in a similar way to how the Devil May Cry franchise pushes flashy combos, or the way Assassin's Creed pushes being sneaky.

[Kimimoto]

On 2020-07-26 at 7:40 PM, (PS4)Yggranya said:

If that isn't the case, then why are you still here?

Yo my man, I'm going to need you to tone yourself down from a 26 to atleast a 9. Your response was so silly that I can't give you a legitimate answer because I must now go to the hospital. Please read this whole post like I'm telling everyone to remain calm inside a building that's on fire, thank you.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

How is that supposed to be flagship? Flagship means the best that a company has to offer, and for a video game, that's the gameplay. None a singular, exclusionary content island.

Flagship is primary gameplay, yes. It's what you do when you log in into the game. We don't have that. When you get past the starchart you're left on your own and there really isn't anything that could be classified as a flagship gameplay. 

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Warframe's gameplay is genuinely good, and if you think otherwise, tell me examples within the genre that are actually better.

Path of Exile. It's pretty much Warframe with a different setting and camera angle. That has essentially inexhaustible replayability value as long as you don't get bored of it yourself. Knows how to handle effort and rewards. Has interesting mechanics but also has "an unstoppable god" power fantasy aspect to it. Was just watching a stream so it's the first thing that popped into my head. I'm sure there's plenty of other examples of games that do effort and reward structure better than Warframe. Especially among online games. Asian MMORPG used to do it pretty well. Tera. Aion. Ancient and long forgotten Perfect World. These are just the games I used to play.

If you're willing to look outside the genre and outside strictly PVE games: League of Legends know what's its flagship gameplay is pretty well. Warthunder. World of Tanks/Warships and such. Pretty much any competently or even semi-competently designed game knows what's its flagship gameplay is gonna be and you'll never confuse it with anything else. It's just Warframe that has an multi-year long identity crisis. 

But of course "better" is subjective and you could try arguing taste here if you wanna go there.