DE, why do you keep punishing Limbo in the new boss fights?

[TheGodofWiFi]

The whole point of Limbo is that he is able to avoid all damage when he steps into his Rift plane. Yet in the newer bossfights, like the Ropalolyst and the reworked Jackal, he either cannot go into the Rift at all or the boss simply does not care that he is in the Rift and damages him anyway. Please can you guys fix these two fights and make it so that Limbo's main mechanic isn't taken away in future boss fights you have planned. He's already balanced due to the fact he can't freeze these bosses.

And since we're on the subject; can you guys please make it so that nullifers don't just instantly pop the Cataclysm bubble and instead make it shrink down faster.

[Chewarette]

Limbo's rift doesn't protect him from environmental damage and that's a good thing. Anything that makes Limbo the no-go choice is a bliss for other players who'd like to enjoy the game.

[TheGodofWiFi]

45 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Limbo's rift doesn't protect him from environmental damage and that's a good thing. Anything that makes Limbo the no-go choice is a bliss for other players who'd like to enjoy the game.

Can we please drop the Limbo hate already. It was valid when he was stopping players from using their weapons in the Rift but now its really old. Limbo should not be continually punished because of some old problems that were cleared up ages ago. You can kill Rift enemies with your abilities so there really is no issue and believe or not there are considerate Limbo players out there.

[Chewarette]

27 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Can we please drop the Limbo hate already. It was valid when he was stopping players from using their weapons in the Rift but now its really old. Limbo should not be continually punished because of some old problems that were cleared up ages ago. You can kill Rift enemies with your abilities so there really is no issue and believe or not there are considerate Limbo players out there.

It's still astonishingly painful to play with a Limbo for two reasons :

- Totally chaotic 3 that puts the mess in the battleground, and depending on the energy color it's difficult to identify Banished enemies. Sometimes we want to kill enemies with our weapons too.

- Maybe we don't want to play Lumberjack Simulator 2020, so we'd like to have moving enemies from time to time, hence the Limbo hatred

[TheGodofWiFi]

18 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Totally chaotic 3 that puts the mess in the battleground, and depending on the energy color it's difficult to identify Banished enemies. Sometimes we want to kill enemies with our weapons too

The only type of player who does that is one who does not respect other players. So again, why should the ones who do respect others and only use his 2nd and 4th abilities be getting hate since they're essentially the same as Frost when playing that way?

18 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Maybe we don't want to play Lumberjack Simulator 2020, so we'd like to have moving enemies from time to time, hence the Limbo hatred

This is probably the most petty reason I've seen for Limbo hating. You get annoyed because the enemies don't move? Really? Wow. Guess any frame that stops or slows enemies down is on your blacklist then.

Honestly it just sounds like you wouldn't even care if a decent Limbo player was in your squad, you'd still bully them for the very fact they're playing the frame. Nice.

[Chewarette]

8 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The only type of player who does that is one who does not respect other players. So again, why should the ones who do respect others and only use his 2nd and 4th abilities be getting hate since they're essentially the same as Frost when playing that way?

As long as the 3 exists, Limbos will be hated.

8 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

This is probably the most petty reason I've seen for Limbo hating. You get annoyed because the enemies don't move? Really? Wow. Guess any frame that stops or slows enemies down is on your blacklist then.

Honestly it just sounds like you wouldn't even care if a decent Limbo player was in your squad, you'd still bully them for the very fact they're playing the frame. Nice.

1- No, I don't blacklist regular CC frames. No CC frame has the annoyance potential of Limbo, due to a combination of Range, Duration, no Cap and impossibility to hit enemies blocked within or outside if you're on the other side. I mean, a max range Frost has a Snowglobe the same size as a 80-100% range Cataclysm probably, and it only blocks from one side. Of course Trolls Frost are painful to play with. But Limbo doesn't need a troll player to be a pain in the ass. Limbo is painful to play with 24/7, whatever its modding, and it goes overload if he dares using his 3.

2- Don't invent stories please. I don't bully anyone. I just leave the squad when I'm grouped with a Limbo, which doesn't hinder their gameplay experience (only mine actually), maybe with the exception of the potential Host Migration that we all know everyday, Limbos or not.

Edit: all this doesn't change the point: Limbo takes environmental damage, and rightfully so. Nothing to "fix" here.

[TheGodofWiFi]

3 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

As long as the 3 exists, Limbos will be hated.

Ah, so it doesn't matter if people don't use it, you're still going to bully them until they don't use the frame at all. Once again; nice.

4 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

No CC frame has the annoyance potential of Limbo

Well according to you, you hate it when the enemies stop moving because then it becomes "Lumberjack Simulator 2020". I can think of a couple of frames that would fit that critera; Harrow, Frost, Gauss, Khora, Vauban and Atlas to name a few.

6 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Of course Trolls Frost are painful to play with. But Limbo doesn't need a troll player to be a pain in the ass. Limbo is painful to play with 24/7, whatever its modding, and it goes overload if he dares using his 3

Okay, how exactly is a Limbo painful to play with, if he just uses his 2 and 4, because then he's basically a Frost. As you just said, Frost's globe blocks you from shooting inwards, which is what Cataclysm does. So all you need to do is go into the bubble and kill enemies. No it doesn't allow you to shoot out, but that's why you leave the bubble.

So again, how is he a pain to play with?

8 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Don't invent stories please. I don't bully anyone.

As long as the 3 exists, Limbos will be hated.

And you're also advocating DE making Limbo more susceptible to damage even while in his Rift, so he will fall out of usage. Sounds like a passive-aggressive bully to me.

[TheGodofWiFi]

16 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

all this doesn't change the point: Limbo takes environmental damage, and rightfully so. Nothing to "fix" here.

He doesn't take environmental damage from other bosses in the game and so he shouldn't. The whole point of his Rift is that its supposed to be a place of existence Limbo controls and is safe while he is on it. Him being susceptible to environmental damage from a different plane not only goes against the lore, but it also means his survivability takes a hit. But you already know that obviously, since you're advocating for Limbo to get more debuffs so people won't use him.

[Chewarette]

You keep comparing Limbo to Frost so let's stop right here. You even strawman'd up to adding Gauss and Atlas to the comparison, which is nothing but laughable.

The only thing I can say here, is that you're advocating to make Limbo invulnerable without any weakness. I hope you'll understand it won't happen, ever. If Limbo doesn't take any damage and can deal damage as normal, then DE will just stop creating abilities to their bosses and just add them an HP bar you'll be able to hit. DE didn't create Jackal's laser wall just for everyone to Limbo through everything during this encounter.

Limbo takes environmental damage and it makes sense (both lore wise and gameplay wise), that's unlikely to be changed ever.

Have a nice evening/day, though, we probably won't meet again. 😛

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 minute ago, Chewarette said:

You even strawman'd up to adding Gauss and Atlas to the comparison, which is nothing but laughable.

Atlas and Gauss freeze enemies in place, something you said you don't like. So it isn't strawmanning, but good try.

2 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

You keep comparing Limbo to Frost so let's stop right here.

I won't because its a perfectly apt comparison when talking about a Limbo that only uses his 2nd and 4th abilites.

3 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

The only thing I can say here, is that you're advocating to make Limbo invulnerable without any weakness.

No. His weakness is that he cannot hurt enemies who are not inside his Rift. That is his whole gameplay gimmick. He's invulnerable, but so are his enemies. That is his balance. I'm advocating Limbo not being given debuffs that he doesn't get normally elsewhere. Limbo is a glass cannon and the moment you take away the one bit of survivability he has, he becomes worthless which is what you are advocating for.

7 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

If Limbo doesn't take any damage and can deal damage as normal, then DE will just stop creating abilities to their bosses and just add them an HP bar you'll be able to hit.

Not what I'm advocating so don't bother going down that road. Bosses cannot be taken into the Rift, which is completely fair and obvious. I have no problem against that whatsoever as it means Limbo cannot completely trivialise bosses. However, it becomes really unbalanced when Bosses can hit him while he is supposed to be safe in his plane, because then he has no defence against them at all. That, is not fair.

Limbo has never had any problems with balance in boss fights whatsoever up until this point.

10 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Limbo takes environmental damage and it makes sense (both lore wise and gameplay wise)

Limbo does not take environmental damage from bosses before and that should be the case. Lorewise it makes no sense that something from the normal material plane, can affect something that is on a completely separate plane of existence altogether, because that is not how planes work. Gameplay wise it also does not make sense, since Limbo is already balanced due to not being able to affect anything that isn't in the Rift with him.

13 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Have a nice evening/day, though, we probably won't meet again. 😛

You too, and I really hope we don't.

[RazerXPrime]

If anything complain about Zanuka Hunter which can pull Limbo out of the rift from across the map and even teleport him to his location at will.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I agree that Limbo shouldn't be affected by environmental damage when he's in the Rift, but @Chewarette has a point.

Limbo is my third most used frame, and from the perspective of a player using Limbo and as one on the team with a Limbo he is a nightmare to team with. The Rift prevents other players from playing the game in its current state, and his 3 makes that even worse.

And being able to use abilities across the Rift is meaningless. Limbo is useless in low level content. In high level content where he is useful, only half the frames (ones with exalted weapons and stat sticks mostly) are even capable of reasonably killing an enemy exclusively with abilities without spending their entire energy pool on one target. The other half either can't at all, or can't reasonably.

I made a feedback thread specifically about how invasive the Rift is to multiplayer gameplay, and suggestions on how to improve it for allies with minimal effect on how Limbo himself plays. 

 

[Solarsyphon]

In most players particular at the high end I don't see much limbo hatred its only the occasional forum post or twitch message. They are also typically complaints not unique to limbo either for example he talked about the lumber jack simulator which is synonymous with people saying that frames make content too easy. That's a common criticism of many frames. Another criticism I hear is that limbo slowed down enemies which is also often a criticism of Slowva, sleep abilities and alike. 

The one suggestion I would make is cataclysm shouldn't shrink. Its too much of a pain to readjust with a changing cataclysm size. Enemies on the edge will flicker in and out of being in limbo. 

If you really wanted to make shooting enemies in limbo easier my suggesting would be make rift surge make targets targetable from any plane and or let it be put on allies to let them target any plane. I do think the increasing number of enemies immune to limbo makes this increasingly necessary as putting things in limbo is now less consistent.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

4 hours ago, Solarsyphon said:

The one suggestion I would make is cataclysm shouldn't shrink. Its too much of a pain to readjust with a changing cataclysm size. Enemies on the edge will flicker in and out of being in limbo. 

I would actually love if they reduced the base radius of Cataclysm to like 1/3 of its current size, and removed the shrinking.

[--Q--EXHALER_Wolf]

9 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Limbo's rift doesn't protect him from environmental damage and that's a good thing. Anything that makes Limbo the no-go choice is a bliss for other players who'd like to enjoy the game.

nyx can completely ignore all damage from both ropalolyst and jackal at negligible energy loss and 50% movement speed loss. How is that allowed by your logic? whatever Limbo ignores, nyx can do the same and even better at times with her 4th augment.

All players that have access to transference can use operator mode to ignore all damage.

All players with vazarin school and using the protective dash can ignore all damage for 5s using any frame and can spam it infinitely without cooldown.

Any bad Limbo you encounter is 99% a new Limbo player who doesn't completely understand how his abilities work, as Limbo is the most unique warframe and requires a lot of practice and experimenting with builds before the player can merge with the flow of general warframe combat that takes place in material plane. It's partially their fault for not playing solo, but a lot of youtubers are also to blame who claim to have the best limbo builds and guides and feed half assed information to new players making them more confused.
 

[Pizzarugi]

9 hours ago, Chewarette said:

- Maybe we don't want to play Lumberjack Simulator 2020, so we'd like to have moving enemies from time to time, hence the Limbo hatred

Please tell me you also hate press-4-to-win nuke frames, otherwise this doesn't seem like a valid reason to dislike Limbo.

Also, Lumberjack SImulator 2020 was pre-rework Limbo. You don't need to chop anyone down anymore.

Don't get me wrong, Limbo is still a perfect frame to troll with, but let's not nitpick when there's tons of other frames out there who can do what he does and sometimes do it better.

8 hours ago, Chewarette said:

The only thing I can say here, is that you're advocating to make Limbo invulnerable without any weakness. I hope you'll understand it won't happen, ever. If Limbo doesn't take any damage and can deal damage as normal, then DE will just stop creating abilities to their bosses and just add them an HP bar you'll be able to hit. DE didn't create Jackal's laser wall just for everyone to Limbo through everything during this encounter.

Rhino, Revenant, Valkyr, Nidus, and Baruuk can all virtually become invincible in the same situations Limbo can, plus more. It's pretty clear that DE is okay with immortal frames and one of Limbo's gimmicks is that he can slip between dimensions to avoid being harmed. He should not get special exceptions outside of nullifier magic.

[Lutesque]

15 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Limbo's rift doesn't protect him from environmental damage and that's a good thing.

But it does though.... 

Unless if this was Changed Recently ? 😮

15 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Anything that makes Limbo the no-go choice is a bliss for other players who'd like to enjoy the game.

This makes it sound like just because you don't like Limbo you don't want any one else to have fun with him 😐

15 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You can kill Rift enemies with your abilities so there really is no issue and believe or not there are considerate Limbo players out there.

This doesn't help Warframe's like Trinity or Nezha...or Nekros....

14 hours ago, Chewarette said:

As long as the 3 exists, Limbos will be hated.

Wait...you mean Rift Surge ?

Why you hating on The Least intrusive ability in his Kit ? 

14 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Limbo doesn't need a troll player to be a pain in the ass.

True....

Being intrusive with Limbo only requires you to not know how he works....

13 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

The Rift prevents other players from playing the game in its current state, and his 3 makes that even worse.

Was Limbo's 3 changed at some point ? 😮

im confused as to why people hate Rift Surge all of a sudden 😮

11 hours ago, Solarsyphon said:

The one suggestion I would make is cataclysm shouldn't shrink. Its too much of a pain to readjust with a changing cataclysm size. Enemies on the edge will flicker in and out of being in limbo. 

This is why he has Rift Surge.... Simply press 3 after opening a Cataclysm and that will prime Enemies with Rift Energy.... 

As the Cataclysm Shrinks.... Enemies that fall out of its Area of Effect will get banished back into The Rift....

Naturally for this to Work Properly you will need enemies to already be in the Rift so that you can Rift Surge them in The first place...

11 hours ago, Solarsyphon said:

If you really wanted to make shooting enemies in limbo easier my suggesting would be make rift surge make targets targetable from any plane and or let it be put on allies to let them target any plane. I do think the increasing number of enemies immune to limbo makes this increasingly necessary as putting things in limbo is now less consistent.

This would be an interesting change....

 

[taiiat]

so, what are we actually talking about? Jackal? for better or for worse i'm sure the rotating energy wall laser fence thing is considered Environment Damage.
you should be protected from all of the other sources of Damage in that encounter, though.
i agree in principle, but if something is Environmental then there's not much that i can say.

Ropalapalapalapa is definitely fundamentally anti-fun, sure. i'll fully agree there. same sorts of frustrations regardless of what you have Equipped.

31 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

As the Cataclysm Shrinks.... Enemies that fall out of its Area of Effect will get banished back into The Rift....

that doesn't really help anything - then what happens is you see Enemies outside of the Cataclysm so you might try attacking them (yes, they're probably frozen in place but if you're not just standing around doing nothing then you might not notice the Enemy isn't moving) since outside of Cataclysm means not in Rift, right? and the same problem there.
the new version of Rift Surge is just "loss of control" in an Abiilty. especially when paired with Cataclysm. is an Enemy in the Rift, or not? who knows! just shoot everything and find out. then move to the opposite plane and try again, and see if you can Kill any of those.
and then if you don't use Rift Surge ofcourse the normal you tried to attack an Enemy but it left the Rift/Cataclysm right as you clicked, and if the intention by the Limbo is to hold things then they're probably going to reset Cataclysm soon, so if you change to/from Rift then you may very well try to attack and have the Enemy switch states again - and potentially repeat.

part of this is that you don't know what Abilities are active or not, so the Enemy is maybe in Stasis or not, maybe Rift Surge is active or not. so if the edge of Cataclysm passes over and Enemy or if Cataclysm gets recast - you have a Chance of a Chance that you're in the right plane of existence to attack that Enemy in that exact moment, and a Chance whether the Enemy is going to stay where it is or start moving all of a sudden. a Warframe that was originally designed to be the extreme control Warframe, where the theme was Rift, and Control over Enemies - now is more like a Slot Machine.

mind, such features would probably be quite welcome in a Turn Based game, where you can definitely take your time examining the PFX on an Enemy to determine what is affecting them.
but Warframe is very far from that speed, heh.

[Lutesque]

7 minutes ago, taiiat said:

so, what are we actually talking about? Jackal? for better or for worse i'm sure the rotating energy wall laser fence thing is considered Environment Damage.

The type of Damage it is irrelevant. Limbo shouldn't be getting damaged by anything outside the rift.

Even if you disagree. The Lazers on Orokin Tiles don't Hit Limbo.... Is that not environmental damage ?

11 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that doesn't really help anything - then what happens is you see Enemies outside of the Cataclysm so you might try attacking them (yes, they're probably frozen in place but if you're not just standing around doing nothing then you might not notice the Enemy isn't moving) since outside of Cataclysm means not in Rift, right? and the same problem there.
the new version of Rift Surge is just "loss of control" in an Abiilty. especially when paired with Cataclysm. is an Enemy in the Rift, or not? who knows! just shoot everything and find out. then move to the opposite plane and try again, and see if you can Kill any of those.
and then if you don't use Rift Surge ofcourse the normal you tried to attack an Enemy but it left the Rift/Cataclysm right as you clicked, and if the intention by the Limbo is to hold things then they're probably going to reset Cataclysm soon, so if you change to/from Rift then you may very well try to attack and have the Enemy switch states again - and potentially repeat.

Well there's your problem... You're trying to Attack enemies...

Pretty much all of limbo's Abilities are terrible for that (as weird as that sounds)... 

Whenever I use Rift Surge it's never with the Intention of actually trying to kill anything. I only use it to "Mimick" an Everlasting Cataclysm in which to hold enemies in place indefinitely.

[blazinvire]

Limbo has such an awkward kit, I'm not surprised there's always a fuss getting kicked up.

A lot of it you could fix by pulling a Guacamelee and making the two different realms VERY different, so it's instantly apparent which dimension you're currently in and what dimension your opponent is in.  If you're not on the same plane, then you're 90% invisible to one another or something.
And if they're going to catch our bullets with their invincible rifted bodies, at least knock them around or something.

But damage across the planes... I feel like DE needs to get its facts straight, because it seems very unpredictable as to what is going to hit you and what isn't.
I feel like they should just simplify it and draw the line; if you're not on the same plane, you can't hurt each other.  No abilities, no environmental stuff, nothing.
If they want to give Limbo players a challenge, they should design things that enter the rift after him, like when Manics go invisible/invincible, or enemies chase him through the temporary portals he leaves.

[LordPawel]

As a long term Limbo main, I think the best solution to the problem would be to make the banished enemies / allies more visibly banished.

I, just like other frequent limbo players, am able to tell the difference between banished and material enemies just by looking at the bleaker colors. However, it's also understandable to me that most people who don't have experience in dealing with Limbo will have a problem with that.

Even I have to admit that the distinction is not an easy one, which explains why so many people are upset that suddenly they can't deal as much damage as they would please.

Now consider the following: instead of making the banished enemies have a bleaker color palette, make the enemies who are not in the player's current plane of existence blurry. Thus, if you are sitting inside the Cataclysm you will very clearly see that all enemies inside the bubble are visible. Enemies that were banished via Rift Surde will also be visible, even though they will be on the outside of the bubble. Every other enemy however, will be a blurry mess. You could even use the magnetic proc visual efect that makes your entire screen glitchy and buggy and apply it just to the silhouettes of the enemies outside of the Rift. 

This would work both ways, thus if you were in the material plane, and your teammate Limbo uses Cataclysm somewhere far away from yourself, you will notice that all enemies affected by it suddenly look like a mist, and not like an actual enemy. The same would apply to enemies banished via the Rift Surge. You will always be able to distinguish actual foes that you can shoot from some spooky colorful mist that doesn't even show a health bar. Obviously, after changing your current dimension, either by walking into the Cataclysm, a Rift Portal or through Banish, the mist and the enemies would swap places, so now you will se only the banished enemies clearly.

Also, even when rifted, nulifier bubbles should be somewhat visible, so you can get out and prevent them from touching your Cataclysm bubble in time.

I hope I made this clear enough, cause sometimes it's easy to get lost in Limbo's ability kit :p.

As for the enviromental damage I agree to the notion that Limbo should be invulnerable. I mean, come on! Rihno can tank everything this game can throw at him AND simultaneously shoot things. Limbo is vulnerable to half of everything while inside of his Rift and understandably can't shoot anyone. Plus, Limbo's kit is already pretty inconsistent. 

Orikin Lazers of Death don't hurt him, but a bit of cold air on Europa does? Mobile defence objectives are thrown inside the Rift with Cataclysm but Orb Vallis coildrives aren't? It's getting bloody annoying at this rate.

EDIT: So, I've been writing this response for so long that I didn't load blazinvire's comment, and yeah, this guy said what I said but without needless blabbering, go listen to huim now DE, please.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

The type of Damage it is irrelevant. Limbo shouldn't be getting damaged by anything outside the rift.

 

Well there's your problem... You're trying to Attack enemies...

Environmental Damage is not supposed to be covered by Rift.

 

"you're supposed to be AFK"
case and point.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

3 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This would be an interesting change....

Oh sure when someone else suggests it a year later its not a bad idea...

 

Edit. 2 years ago+

For the record i still think this is what should be done.. allow surged enemies to be attacked reguardless of who is in the rift or not.

[Lutesque]

43 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Environmental Damage is not supposed to be covered by Rift.

But it is 😮 !!!

43 minutes ago, taiiat said:

"you're supposed to be AFK"
case and point.

I never said that 😮 !!!

[TheGodofWiFi]

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Unless if this was Changed Recently ?

Sadly Limbo's invulnerability to environmental damage is very inconsistent. Even the wiki doesn't fully list all of the damage his Rift can't protect him against, like the cold status effect on Europa.

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This doesn't help Warframe's like Trinity or Nezha...or Nekros...

No it doesn't, which is why decent Limbo players only use his 2nd and 4th in public missions, so as to be considerate of others as much as possible.