Remove immunity phase on Necramech bosses

[fr4gb4ll]

On 2020-10-16 at 7:47 PM, Steel_Rook said:

Mandatory team requirements? Because bringing team-mates doesn't really make the mechanic good. It just "enables" the mechanic.

i wonder if doing this solo with loki, using his decoy to bring the mech to expose the back-weak-point while hammering him invisible would work...

[Sevek7]

8 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

i wonder if doing this solo with loki, using his decoy to bring the mech to expose the back-weak-point while hammering him invisible would work...

That's a good idea. And if you don't like Loki, you can also use Helminth to subsume his decoy, and then use it on any other frame. You can also accomplish the same thing without Loki or Helminth by using a specter. 

You can also use Zenurik void blast to slow down the Mech, or Exodia epidemic to hold it in place, there are so many ways to do this! Personally, I think DE did a really great job designing this fight, because so many interesting and fun tactics are viable and effective. I really hope they don't listen to the people who refuse to try all these things and then claim the fight is poorly designed, when really the fault is their own.

[sitfesz]

On 2020-10-16 at 10:13 PM, Sevek7 said:

You are all aware that you can subsume Banshee's silence, and use that to nullify and prevent all the Necramech abilities. Right?

Since when did banshee's silence prevent enemies using abilities?

3 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I really hope they don't listen to the people who refuse to try all these things and then claim the fight is poorly designed, when really the fault is their own.

For a few seconds stacking absorption shield ability popping without warning, then reflecting all damage taken while it's up is indeed poorly designed. It can be instantly activated 0,002 seconds before you shoot ten-thousands of damage in it, then good luck stripping away the shield slowly to avoid one-shotting yourself.

Why can exodia epidemic and zenurik void blast effect it, while molecular prime can't? Why is one working, but others not? It's also poor design, because it's not logical and we can't assume anything, because DE either cared about it when coded the necramech enemy or not.

[Sevek7]

1 hour ago, sitfesz said:

Since when did banshee's silence prevent enemies using abilities?

Since always! Silence prevents Eximus bubbles, Hyekka master fire bombs & Hyekka spawns, Scorpion & Ancient Hooks, Heavy gunner / bombard ground slams, and the list goes on. Not to mention you can use it to chain stun groups of enemies forever (not necramechs though). It's an amazing ability that is extremely strong and useful. I think the whole "Banshee is bad" meme started when they changed her 4 augment, after that people just assumed all of her abilities sucked... without actually checking if it was true.

1 hour ago, sitfesz said:

For a few seconds stacking absorption shield ability popping without warning, then reflecting all damage taken while it's up is indeed poorly designed. It can be instantly activated 0,002 seconds before you shoot ten-thousands of damage in it, then good luck stripping away the shield slowly to avoid one-shotting yourself.

Yeah this was clearly designed to prevent people from "no-braining" through the encounter. Personally, I enjoy the challenge of suddenly seeing self damage take down my shield, and then knowing I have to react fast to both stop charging their shield and also regain my shields. Then, I can make sure to get an arcane aegis procced, so I have a window of time to unload on their shield safely. I think also you can proc aegis / barrier on yourself with the self damage, so a high fire-rate weapon can make you invincible for a nice duration because of the damage reflect. Alternatively, if you don't have arcanes, you can just use operator to take down the shield, it doesn't reflect void damage! Otherwise, I think you can just wait and eventually the shield will go down on its own.

There's always a method to overcome any encounter they throw at us, we're only limited by our own creativity :) don't be afraid to try new things!

[Edit: You also can use rolling guard or vazarin focus school to make yourself briefly invincible. I prefer the shield gate method, but this would work for the Inaros/Nidus players too]

1 hour ago, sitfesz said:

Why can exodia epidemic and zenurik void blast effect it, while molecular prime can't? Why is one working, but others not? It's also poor design, because it's not logical and we can't assume anything, because DE either cared about it when coded the necramech enemy or not.

Oh come on! Where's your sense of curiosity and exploration? You want to know ahead of time exactly which abilities and methods work on the bosses? 99% of the fun of Warframe is to try different loadouts and tactics to find out what works best, what makes the boss vulnerable, what can they resist, etc... If you simply must always know ahead of time, just wait 1 month after every boss released then go read the wiki page to find out what you should bring. Then there's no need to exercise any creativity at all.

[sitfesz]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

Since always!

Nice, banshee was one of the few frames I didn't play more than I needed, so I didn't experience it myself and since there is no information from DE about this feature of silence, I didn't even know about it.

I personally almost always use vazarin, so I can throw it to the dumpster when the first necramech #*!%s up my operator dash for the rest of the mission. All I need is a 0,5 seconds window to warn before shield application, so I won't have to take 2 minutes to tear the shield bit-by-bit or to one-shot myself 3 times.

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

Oh come on! Where's your sense of curiosity and exploration? You want to know ahead of time exactly which abilities and methods work on the bosses? 99% of the fun of Warframe is to try different loadouts and tactics to find out what works best, what makes the boss vulnerable, what can they resist, etc...

There is no sense of curiosity and exploration to me, because most of these stuff might be "fixed" anytime. I hope instead of some cc abilities being applied to necramech from bugs will be fixed and we get all cc abilities being equally usable with some diminishing. I try not to get attached to any of the current methods.
Trying different loadouts are one thing, and going 30 times into the same mission to try out every little thing DE might have not foreseen is another. This is not exploring the game like testing, this is pure beta testing where ability descriptions are missing or just not true for some unexplained reasons.

There is no pattern and the mechanics are absolutely unreliable. I like testing and theorycrafting, but hate when some theory doesn't work, well "just because", when I already took the effort to make the builds and went for a field study.

[Sevek7]

51 minutes ago, sitfesz said:

Nice, banshee was one of the few frames I didn't play more than I needed, so I didn't experience it myself and since there is no information from DE about this feature of silence, I didn't even know about it.

Yeah the ability description says something like "Limits enemy tactical response" which is a bit vague. In any case, it's a fantastic ability that the vast majority of the playerbase has ignored in favor of more damage or EHP, when neither of those is necessary in almost all situations!

52 minutes ago, sitfesz said:

There is no sense of curiosity and exploration to me, because most of these stuff might be "fixed" anytime. I hope instead of some cc abilities being applied to necramech from bugs will be fixed and we get all cc abilities being equally usable with some diminishing. I try not to get attached to any of the current methods.
Trying different loadouts are one thing, and going 30 times into the same mission to try out every little thing DE might have not foreseen is another. This is not exploring the game like testing, this is pure beta testing where ability descriptions are missing or just not true for some unexplained reasons.

There is no pattern and the mechanics are absolutely unreliable. I like testing and theorycrafting, but hate when some theory doesn't work, well "just because", when I already took the effort to make the builds and went for a field study.

That's fair. I sometimes think others enjoy the game for the same reasons I do, which is certainly not a given, so I apologize for projecting my own preferences onto you. I think this feeling for me comes from the games I played as a kid. I remember playing some of those early point-and-click adventure games, where you had to figure out super weird puzzles where the solution was never clear, and usually very difficult to guess! No guides on the internet or anything back then either, if you couldn't figure out the puzzle then you just didn't get to finish the game! Obviously, games nowadays are designed to be completed by any player, hence guides, explicit descriptions, helpful tips, generally low difficulty, etc... And this is definitely the better choice, those early games could be so frustrating! Nevertheless, it still left me with a drive to explore things for myself and develop my own strategies, so I enjoy it. I don't mind so much when they nerf any particular strategy, because I've usually come up with dozens by that point anyway ;) 

[Steel_Rook]

8 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Yeah this was clearly designed to prevent people from "no-braining" through the encounter. Personally, I enjoy the challenge of suddenly seeing self damage take down my shield, and then knowing I have to react fast to both stop charging their shield and also regain my shields.

It really isn't, though. If Necramechs were designed to be a complex and interesting fight, then DE would have actually given us to information we need to deal with it. They'd have given Necramechs some kind of telegraph for the Storm Shroud, they'd have given them a visual indicator for the slow ability's range, they'd have given us some way to stagger them so we can circle around and shoot their backs. This is nothing more than another take on invulnerability phases - it exists so that people can't use the massively overpowered weapons DE themselves gave us and refuse to balance in order to wipe Necramechs out of existence in seconds. I don't think that a single consideration was made towards the actual experience of fighting Necramechs.

What you're doing here is something I generally caution against. You're trying to interpret poor design as intentionally good design because you've found workarounds. It's akin to people criticising the Stealth MR tests and being told to just take Banshee with a Redeemer. Or indeed, like a guy on the Payday 2 forums insisting that an out-of-map bug not be fixed because it helped speedrunners and they "deserved" to keep it. There's always a temptation to try and re-frame poor design as good design because of how we the players have learned to work around it, to imply some skill or knowledge check in circumventing bugs. What that does, however, is stifle progress on the game because it offers a counterpoint against actually improving these instances. Arguing that Necramech fights are "fine" because you can "just use Banshee" is more likely than not to keep them from actually being made into better, less clumsy fights. That's not a good thing.

If game designers want players to react to something, they need to give us both time to react and a tell by which to know what we're reacting to and when to react to it. Game design which requires us to guess when a thing might happen and react to it before it does is not good. If designers want players to be smart about overcoming complex mechanic, then they need to let us know how those mechanics work in the first place. Again - you yourself just talked about ways to stack up damage resistance so you could break Necramech shields more quickly. I've repeated this probably hundreds of times now, but Storm Shroud only reflects damage within about 10 meters or so of the Necramech. Simply fire at them from farther away and you won't take any reflected damage, meaning you can mag-dump into them in safety. No matter how many times I bring this up, there are always people who simply don't know this, because it's illogical and nothing about that mechanic tells you that's how it works. Maybe if Necramechs had a bubble to indicate this range, or visibly linked to us if we stood too near one could deduce this mechanic, but there's currently NOTHING.

That you have found workarounds is great. It doesn't excuse the clear shortcomings of Storm Shroud, however, nor minimise the need for a better design.

 

8 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Oh come on! Where's your sense of curiosity and exploration? You want to know ahead of time exactly which abilities and methods work on the bosses?

That's an honestly rather disingenuous take on what you're responding to. Consider what the person you're responding to actually asked. Why does one thing work but another similar thing not work? Why are the rules not consistent? That's not a matter of exploration. It's a matter of having clear, consistent rules of engagement. What if, for instance, the Azima one-shot Necramechs through their Storm Shroud? Would that count as "exploration?" What if Necramechs would instantly die if you stabbed them with a Rakta Dark Dagger, then shot them with a MK.1 Lato, then shot them with a Rubico Prime, then hit them with an Oberon Smite? Would that count as exploration? Or would that count as a bug? What possible reason would you even have to try something like this, other than a brute-force attempt at trying literally every possible permutation of conditions? Because when there's no logic to what works and what doesn't, "trying everything" is the only real alternative and you can't possibly expect all players to do this on their own. This is why we spend so much time on the Wiki - because Warframe's rules are inconsistent and not everyone has the time try everything just to see how it works.

I would argue that, in a well-designed game, players should be able to deduce which abilities and methods work on a given boss before trying them. When rules are consistent in how they work and how they're applied, players are able to make informed choices. I need to fight high-level Corups with enhanced shields. I would need a weapon that's good against shields - so something with Magnetic damage. It would also need to be automatic and rapid-firing in order to get around the shield gate. Probably a good idea to bring an Impact-heavy weapon, as well. Oh hey! I just happen to have a Prisma Gorgon that fits that description. I'd also need a Warframe that can drain enemy shields, ideally. Well, I do have Hyldrin. She's tough enough to tank enemy damage and sap shields and OH! I have that anti-Nullifier Augment! Obviously that doesn't mean that what I described is the BEST choice for the job, but it's a choice I can make based on my knowledge of the game and my experience of it. I don't need to guess what's going to work based on pure trial and error.

This is also the reason I always argue with people about what makes "good AI." People keep insisting that good AI should be unpredictable and surprise us and come at us unexpected but the exact opposite is true. Good AI will meticulously keep us appraised of its actions and intentions such that we actually have the information needed to react. It's not our ability to know how the game works that makes a challenge. It's our ability to actually respond that does. Necramechs with unlisted, illogical mechanics that one has to read about or trial-and-error their way through doesn't make for a challenge. It makes for bad design. And sure - some take pleasure in finding bugs that work to the player's favour in overcoming a buggy game, but that's overall not a good way to design an experience for a broad player base.

Let me put it this way - when you're fighting programming, implementation and unfinished work, you're no longer playing a game. You're beta-testing a product. That has its own charm, but I personally feel that games shouldn't be trying to engage their players with a QA experience.

[Klaeljanu]

The state of warframe forums in 2020...

A fight requires you to *stop shooting* for 3 seconds:

Forums:  Unfair!1!! Bad Design!!!1! WAAAHHHH!!!

 

The reality is this, you are given a mech in the quest for Deimos for the explicit purpose that you can learn most of their mechanics.  This includes their Iron Skin-ish ability.  The mechanic is that later on when you are fighting mechs, you can easily and clearly(yes, its very obvious, if you can't, go visit an optometrist) see them use the same mechanic, all you have to do is stop shooting.

[Sevek7]

5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

It really isn't, though. If Necramechs were designed to be a complex and interesting fight, then DE would have actually given us to information we need to deal with it. They'd have given Necramechs some kind of telegraph for the Storm Shroud, they'd have given them a visual indicator for the slow ability's range, they'd have given us some way to stagger them so we can circle around and shoot their backs. This is nothing more than another take on invulnerability phases - it exists so that people can't use the massively overpowered weapons DE themselves gave us and refuse to balance in order to wipe Necramechs out of existence in seconds. I don't think that a single consideration was made towards the actual experience of fighting Necramechs.

What you're doing here is something I generally caution against. You're trying to interpret poor design as intentionally good design because you've found workarounds. It's akin to people criticising the Stealth MR tests and being told to just take Banshee with a Redeemer. Or indeed, like a guy on the Payday 2 forums insisting that an out-of-map bug not be fixed because it helped speedrunners and they "deserved" to keep it. There's always a temptation to try and re-frame poor design as good design because of how we the players have learned to work around it, to imply some skill or knowledge check in circumventing bugs. What that does, however, is stifle progress on the game because it offers a counterpoint against actually improving these instances. Arguing that Necramech fights are "fine" because you can "just use Banshee" is more likely than not to keep them from actually being made into better, less clumsy fights. That's not a good thing.

If game designers want players to react to something, they need to give us both time to react and a tell by which to know what we're reacting to and when to react to it. Game design which requires us to guess when a thing might happen and react to it before it does is not good. If designers want players to be smart about overcoming complex mechanic, then they need to let us know how those mechanics work in the first place. Again - you yourself just talked about ways to stack up damage resistance so you could break Necramech shields more quickly. I've repeated this probably hundreds of times now, but Storm Shroud only reflects damage within about 10 meters or so of the Necramech. Simply fire at them from farther away and you won't take any reflected damage, meaning you can mag-dump into them in safety. No matter how many times I bring this up, there are always people who simply don't know this, because it's illogical and nothing about that mechanic tells you that's how it works. Maybe if Necramechs had a bubble to indicate this range, or visibly linked to us if we stood too near one could deduce this mechanic, but there's currently NOTHING.

That you have found workarounds is great. It doesn't excuse the clear shortcomings of Storm Shroud, however, nor minimise the need for a better design.

I understand what you're saying here, but I still disagree. Storm Shroud reflects damage, so you immediately know when its up. My shields going down is all the indicator I need. Of course, extra visual indicators will make things easier, but it's not meant to be just another easy fight! Even without methods to distract / hold in place the Necramech, if you simply run in a semicircle you can reliably hit the back if you aim and shoot while moving. Of course, if a player has poor aim compensation while moving, they will probably prefer to use some method to distract / hold in place. 

You're right of course that the line between poor design and interesting challenge is one that we should be precise about. In general, a single encounter will have a bit of both, and we'll disagree on the degree, not the category. Personally, I enjoy the necramech fights, I've enjoyed the challenge, doing it with many different loadouts and tactics, seeing what works and what doesn't. Whether this challenge is the result of DE's hard work at making a challenging fight or their poor ability to make visual indicators is irrelevant to me. I enjoy it the way it is. That doesn't mean it's perfect, but I'm really happy to see something challenging in this game after all these years. 

Human reaction time is what? 0.2s? Shield gate time for a general frame is 1.3s. I would say they give us plenty of time to react. Of course, a player can self-sabotage by bringing Nidus or Inaros, but I would expect players to learn from that mistake very quickly. Cool! I didn't know storm shroud had a reflect range, I'll have fun testing that in the coming days, thanks for the tip! 

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Why are the rules not consistent? That's not a matter of exploration. It's a matter of having clear, consistent rules of engagement. What if, for instance, the Azima one-shot Necramechs through their Storm Shroud? Would that count as "exploration?" What if Necramechs would instantly die if you stabbed them with a Rakta Dark Dagger, then shot them with a MK.1 Lato, then shot them with a Rubico Prime, then hit them with an Oberon Smite? Would that count as exploration? Or would that count as a bug?

Here's my logic: The Necramech back is easy to hit if the mech is stationary. So first I try cold procs to slow it down, and discover it is immune to status effects. Then I try crowd control abilities, and discover it is immune to those effects too. Next I ask what else slow an enemy? I try Zenurik void blast, and Exodia Epidemic, and they work! That's great, a 3 step exploration of some various slowing effects has discovered what works and what doesn't. 

Your suggesting that this is the same thing as random permutation of weapons is obviously completely incorrect. Exploration of tactics that are designed to serve a purpose, but not all are known to work on this particular enemy, is a logical thing. Testing completely random combinations of weapons is not  (if one did work, of course it would count as a bug!). I would never say that these are the same thing, and you should not pretend that I said so.

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I would argue that, in a well-designed game, players should be able to deduce which abilities and methods work on a given boss before trying them.

 I disagree, I enjoy the exploration and testing :) 

Let me be clear: I'm not saying that you're wrong with your opinions on what the game should be. I simply think we have different ideas of what we want from the game, and that's okay :) 

[fr4gb4ll]

21 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

You can also use Zenurik void blast to slow down the Mech, or Exodia epidemic to hold it in place,

i use the 'tether mine' operator arcane for this... sadly it seems the mechs don't bother much about it ^^)

also, the aura from the mech often leave you unable to void dash if too close to it - but that isn't too much of a problem.

but, yes, there are many ways to deal with the mech, even in solo, though it sure takes more time to do - but if DE change the dependence of vault to the worm-phase, this also isn't a problem anymore.

[Steel_Rook]

40 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Human reaction time is what? 0.2s? Shield gate time for a general frame is 1.3s. I would say they give us plenty of time to react. Of course, a player can self-sabotage by bringing Nidus or Inaros, but I would expect players to learn from that mistake very quickly. Cool! I didn't know storm shroud had a reflect range, I'll have fun testing that in the coming days, thanks for the tip! 

But that's my point, though. You're clearly a better player than me, yet you never thought to check - not because you failed in any way, but simply because that random permutation of rules simply hasn't occurred to you. Nor should it - quite literally nothing else in the game works this way. The only reason I know is I play Inaros so I can afford to eat my own damage up to a point. I started noticing that I was taking damage sometimes but not others and experimented with it. I might even be wrong on this, in that there's some other mechanic at play, but that seems consistent in my testing. If the game had given you ANY kind of hint that this might be how it works, then you'd likely have figured it out long ago. It's not that the design is bad, but rather that there's no way for a player to figure it out outside of brute-force trial-and-error.

I'm of the opinion that if the first time I know a danger exists is when I'm already eating damage from it, that's bad design. It's the same reason I hate Leech Eximus units and pretty much all non-Tusk Bombards. The mechanics behind them aren't necessarily BAD (though I don't like those either), but the complete lack of communication makes dealing with them simply frustrating. By contrast, I absolutely love engaging with Tusk Bombards because they telegraph their shot and give me a chance to react BEFORE I start taking rockets down the back of my shirt. It's the same reason I brought up AI, in fact - because I feel that the AI announcing its actions before taking it makes for a better encounter. It gives me something to react to.

I wanted to avoid bringing up The Division 2, but I suspect I'll have to. That's currently my high water mark for good enemy design. In almost all cases, I can look at an enemy and near-instantly know how it works. Does the enemy have red on them? That's a destructible element that'll do SOMETHING if I shoot it. What, specifically, depends on the enemy. Does the enemy throw grenades? Shoot the red thing, it'll blow up like a grenade. Is the enemy a medic? Shoot the red thing, it'll probably spray drugs everywhere. Is an enemy about to run up behind and smash me with a baton in the neck? A VERY loud footstep sound plays. Is an enemy flanking me? He'll yell something like "I'll try to get around them!" Am I about to eat multiple grenades? Enemy yells "Deploying airburst!" just before. I have all the information I need both to know how enemies work and need to be fought and what my enemies are actually doing. If I die past that point, it feels like my fault. The game game gave me all the tools I needed, I just failed to use them.

Going back to Warframe has been a heavily disappointing experience for me, in contrast. Is my energy being sapped? Hell if I know, unless I'm constantly looking at my energy bar. Is there a Bombard? Guess I'll know when I start eating rockets. A thing is spawning Ratels, but where is it? No idea - follow the trail of Ratels for 5 minutes and I might find it before it times out on its own. The same applies to Necramechs. Are they about to deploy their Storm Shroud? Who knows - I'll know it when I eat 6000 damage to health because my Warframe has no shields. Or - and this is why this is a problem - I'm not going to bother even looking. I'll either find or (more likely) read on the Wiki the one viable approach and just do that. When I as a player am given insufficient information, I naturally trend towards more conservative and ultimately more boring gameplay - such that I don't actually NEED that information. It's the primary reason I still play Inaros these days - because I don't have to care about all the cheesy attrition damage the game hits me with without warning me about. Switching to anything else IMMEDIATELY reminds me of how bullS#&$ Elite Shield Lancers are, as I insta-die from something off-screen.

Necramechs are made of almost entirely cheap cheese. Yes, they can be defeated - it's just not a fun fight. I'm not fighting a powerful enemy - I'm fighting shoddy game mechanics. Rather than making me feel smart for figuring out a consistent way of dealing with them, I end up feeling dumb for finally understanding just how much better they could have been designed with really simple tweaks. Again, this isn't a matter of "git gud." I don't have issues defeating Necramechs. They literally can't kill me and now I can't even time out. It's a matter of the resultant fight devolving into trading damage with a spammy enemy against the 5 or so pixels of his weak point that I can actually hit, which I'm pretty sure I wasn't supposed to be able to hit in the first place.

 

57 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Your suggesting that this is the same thing as random permutation of weapons is obviously completely incorrect. Exploration of tactics that are designed to serve a purpose, but not all are known to work on this particular enemy, is a logical thing. Testing completely random combinations of weapons is not  (if one did work, of course it would count as a bug!). I would never say that these are the same thing, and you should not pretend that I said so.

That's the thing - I'd argue that these things working IS a bug, not fixed only because Necramechs are already a bullS#&$ fight. I wouldn't be surprised to see this changed a year from now, to people crying "Why are you calling it a bug! It's a balance change!" I would bet real money that there's something with how Exodia Epidemic is coded into the game which causes it to circumvent Status immunity. It would take a LOT to convince me that someone at DE sat down and thought "OK, so status and control effects won't work, but we'll randomly make THIS one actually work." Like another poster said - expect this to be patched out, if a full redesign of Necramechs doesn't happen before that point. This is why I cite an inconsistency - because these exceptions are almost certainly not intentional. Trying all the things hoping that DE's spaghetti code leaves a special-case exception for something that's coded in a particularly exotic way isn't a sign of consistency.

I mean, FFS! Mirage's Eclipse working differently with Deferred Rendering on was fixed just a few days ago. Would YOU have thought to toggle an engine rendering to see if that affects your Warframe's damage buff? Because it did. My example was made up, this is true. The Ecplise isn't - it was in the patch notes. And it's hardly the only one.

[DoomFruit]

12 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Storm Shroud reflects damage, so you immediately know when its up. My shields going down is all the indicator I need. Of course, extra visual indicators will make things easier, but it's not meant to be just another easy fight!

And that right there is the only indication that it even has 2 phases (reflect/absorb and extra health buffer). You have no way of knowing which phase it's in simply by looking at it (such as, for instance, some kind of inward swirly particle or field effect to show that it's charging) and the indication that it's active directly contradicts all other enemy indications of the same type.

When I see an enemy with a grey healthbar, they are without exception completely invulnerable and with one sole exception, you need to wait out that invulnerability period. The exception would be eidolons, whose healthbar regains its colour when you shift into small child mode. Even then, this is only a partial exception because there is very visual, immediate feedback that the eidolon is vulnerable when you shift forms.

Mech invulnerability completely breaks the internal consistency. Yes, it can technically be damaged after the absorb/reflect period wears off, but the healthbar is still grey and all the numbers which pop off the enemy are zeroes. This is a huge part of the problem.

[deothor]

On 2020-08-30 at 3:13 PM, Marvelous_A said:

Void dash supposedly ends this phase prematurely

That's the worst solution for boss imunnity ever. If you have maxed dash distance it means you'll be hitting each wall of the cramped room. Maybe you'll fall off the ledge or get stuck.

It's exactly this bullS#&$ players hated with kuva siphons... Along few other things like kuva siphons in general... But i digress.

 

Just let us use our AMPs.