Remove immunity phase on Necramech bosses

[Marvelous_A]

Honestly who is responsible for the balance of these bosses?

An immunity phase with health regeneration AND damage reflect is the worst combination possible for a boss.

Void dash supposedly ends this phase prematurely but it actually doesn't do anything at all neither do amps and void blast. Actually from what I've seen if you attempt to void dash into them  there is chance you get forced out of Transference and die instantly because your warframe get one-shot.

Immunity has no CD it can stay immune to damage for a minute and leave you with nothing to do but standing and praying for the immunity to end quickly.

Damage reflect (aka the immunity phase itself) has no telegraph at all it is entirely possible to kill yourself instantly without you knowing you're going to kill yourself.

If it has to say, then make void dash does what it is supposed to do or else just remove the immunity entirely.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

I had a mech put up it's shield in the time it took for the projectile I fired to reach the target.  I fired at it when it had no shield, and it had one by the time my Ogris rocket hit it.

I've taken one of these shields down, gone to attack the mech and had it put the shield back up so fast that I died just from my melee input being queued up.

Putting on nearly any defensive ability in the game is a slow, full body animation for a warframe.  They don't even stop spamming attacks to put up this broken, unbalanced mess of a shield.  One second you think you have an opening, and in that same goddamn second this shield is up.

[Traumtulpe]

When they become invincible (grey health) just wait for your shield to regenerate, then shoot it with your weapon. Their absorption phase should be over by then, and the shield will prevent you from killing yourself.

Just mindlessly shooting will get you killed, as it should.

[Marvelous_A]

8 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

When they become invincible (grey health) just wait for your shield to regenerate, then shoot it with your weapon. Their absorption phase should be over by then, and the shield will prevent you from killing yourself.

Just mindlessly shooting will get you killed, as it should.

How can I shoot at all if they just stay in immunity forever? The void dash should end the immunity early like it's supposed to and players shouldn't have to play the waiting game with a NPC and rely on shield gate to not get killed by damage reflect that has no telegraph.

Half of my time is just waiting for the immunity to end. Is that how DE defines fun?

[Traumtulpe]

9 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Half of my time is just waiting for the immunity to end. Is that how DE defines fun?

That is not how the ability works.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

10 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

How can I shoot at all if they just stay in immunity forever? The void dash should end the immunity early like it's supposed to and players shouldn't have to play the waiting game with a NPC and rely on shield gate to not get killed by damage reflect that has no telegraph.

Half of my time is just waiting for the immunity to end. Is that how DE defines fun?

Since the other person isn't going to explain the mechanics they're talking about:

The shield they use works like Iron Skin.  When they turn it on, they get a few seconds of absorption where damage done adds to the shield.  What they're recommending is that when they turn it on, you wait for a few seconds for the absorption phase to end (there is no indicator of this.) and then deal damage to it to take the health of the shield down (which you can't really see clearly.) abusing shield gating on your frame to not die from attacking the shield.

The point they're missing is that because they spam this ability and there is no telegraph for its use either, you can end up inadvertently pumping thousands of damage into the shield that you then have to remove while the shield is doing damage to you, while the mech is spamming AOE attacks.  There is no "git gud" when they can turn this shield on mid attack and soak up damage that you were dealing when the shield wasn't up.  

[wertherd]

On 2020-08-30 at 3:29 PM, Marvelous_A said:

Half of my time is just waiting for the immunity to end. Is that how DE defines fun?

I get the feeling they create extra frustrating boss mechanics without teaching us ingame on purpose. it creats more traffic coz we have to use the internet for every new content. the first thing i legit HAVE to do everytime something is new is watch a freakn ytb vid coz otherwise im in the dark and cant do the content. i rly dont like the idea but it makes sense from DE's perspectiv :P atleast it keeps the game alive

[Steel_Rook]

On 2020-08-30 at 4:46 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

The shield they use works like Iron Skin.  When they turn it on, they get a few seconds of absorption where damage done adds to the shield.  What they're recommending is that when they turn it on, you wait for a few seconds for the absorption phase to end (there is no indicator of this.) and then deal damage to it to take the health of the shield down (which you can't really see clearly.) abusing shield gating on your frame to not die from attacking the shield.

Slight addition here: Necramechs will only reflect damage if you're within ~10 meters of them. If you attack them from farther than this, they don't reflect any of the damage you deal. For this reason, the simplest way to deal with their shields is to back off and shoot at them from a distance. This should allow you to apply your full DPS without worrying about self-damage and break their Storm Shroud faster. While I know this doesn't solve the telegraphic issues, it's at least A way to fight them without taring your hair out.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Slight addition here: Necramechs will only reflect damage if you're within ~10 meters of them. If you attack them from farther than this, they don't reflect any of the damage you deal. For this reason, the simplest way to deal with their shields is to back off and shoot at them from a distance. This should allow you to apply your full DPS without worrying about self-damage and break their Storm Shroud faster. While I know this doesn't solve the telegraphic issues, it's at least A way to fight them without taring your hair out.

Oh, I gave up.  DE, in their complete deafness to player feedback and inability to properly balance anything has won through inaction and complete indifference yet again.  Just like they very obviously intended for me to do, if I go to fight a necramech I just take meta BS now and face tank them with Baruuk.  They literally cannot kill me.  I can't even kill myself with my own damage.  Other frames might be more fun or what I feel like playing, but meta is the only way for fights like these unless you're a masochist.  I bring a Kavat, not because I want to, but because my sentinel will automatically die through all their revives to AOE and I will lose all the basic functionality and QOL that they believe needs to reside in mods.  My Kavat cannot die either, because I am constantly meleeing and healing it to full.  I kill them with Desert Wind or my Stropha, because there are no other options for melee use.  Have to "abuse" the enemy punchthrough on the projectiles of those weapons to hit their tiny little weak points on their backs.  The guns I bring are for infested.  It's all just AOE spam because why not go full meta slave for the duration?  It's all cookie cutter meta BS for me, because that's how you have fun in warframe.  At least that's how it's balanced.

[Steel_Rook]

5 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Oh, I gave up.  DE, in their complete deafness to player feedback and inability to properly balance anything has won through inaction and complete indifference yet again.  Just like they very obviously intended for me to do, if I go to fight a necramech I just take meta BS now and face tank them with Baruuk.  They literally cannot kill me. 

My solution was similar, though I tend to bring Inaros. I actually entirely gave up shooting their back weak points altogether. I CAN do so using my Archgun but... Well, yet again DE have designed an enemy with a weak point on their back who turns around instantly and runs around constantly. Shooting their arms deals damage to their health. In a lot of cases, I'll just idle and wait for their arms to grow back. Shoot them several times and the Necramech goes down. It's an awfully designed boss fight with lack of telegraphing attacks, lack of telegraphing defences, no guaranteed vulnerability windows and no way to immobilise them. It's Tusk Thumpers all over again, except worse.

[TheNeonGod]

Abilities that deal damage, excluding exalted weapons can bypass their DR but not invulnerability phase, but also can make it go away if done enough damage.  

[SpiritTeA]

1)Necromech shield has cooldown;

2)Cooldown reset when you shoot off the limb. Or it actually just cast shield without resetting cooldown. Can’t tell

Killed many Necromech with Hildryn and Mausolon having no problem at all. Takes about minute per Necromech on the last bounty. Bring tanky frame and you’re done. It’s actually always interesting fight for me.

[kwlingo]

I think DE needs to add more phases to all bosses with the Parazon opening them up for more damage and damage cap per hit. We need more complexity in stronger unit enemies. As of right now too many things can get one shot.

[DoomFruit]

6 hours ago, kwlingo said:

I think DE needs to add more phases to all bosses with the Parazon opening them up for more damage and damage cap per hit. We need more complexity in stronger unit enemies. As of right now too many things can get one shot.

Oh christ no. While this "cinematic" crap might look good the first time you do it, you're going to get VERY tired of it when you're killing the exact same enemy for the 50th time.

[Tsukinoki]

6 hours ago, kwlingo said:

I think DE needs to add more phases to all bosses with the Parazon opening them up for more damage and damage cap per hit. We need more complexity in stronger unit enemies. As of right now too many things can get one shot.

So instead of just one-shoting the boss we instead shoot the boss for under a second with an automatic weapon, run up to them, do a 15 second unskippable animation (and hope that it doesn't break anything and that the enemy doesn't end up somewhere where you can't do the parazon finisher....or that it doesn't shunt you into a wall or the floor), shoot them for another single second and repeat another 15 second animation, and then shoot them for a third actual second for another 15 second animation and then shoot them again and see if they just die or give you another parazon animation.

Here's the thing: It might be cool and cinematic the first few times you do it...by the 100th time doing it while you're farming for a specific drop from the boss (Equinox says hi) then its just twiddling your thumbs through boring animation after boring animation after boring animation that you can't skip.

A little secret here: Making the fight take artificially long like that does absolutely nothing to make the fight "more complex" or make the boss "stronger".....it just makes them stupidly annoying with only cheese strategies able to get around it.
I mean do you call the new Jackal fight stronger and more complex than the old one?  I seriously doubt it.  It's just longer and more boring because all you can do is sit around and twiddle your thumbs while you wait for the boss to become vulnerable....then you shoot it and go right back to twiddling your thumbs.

[kwlingo]

5 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

So instead of just one-shoting the boss we instead shoot the boss for under a second with an automatic weapon, run up to them, do a 15 second unskippable animation (and hope that it doesn't break anything and that the enemy doesn't end up somewhere where you can't do the parazon finisher....or that it doesn't shunt you into a wall or the floor), shoot them for another single second and repeat another 15 second animation, and then shoot them for a third actual second for another 15 second animation and then shoot them again and see if they just die or give you another parazon animation.

Here's the thing: It might be cool and cinematic the first few times you do it...by the 100th time doing it while you're farming for a specific drop from the boss (Equinox says hi) then its just twiddling your thumbs through boring animation after boring animation after boring animation that you can't skip.

A little secret here: Making the fight take artificially long like that does absolutely nothing to make the fight "more complex" or make the boss "stronger".....it just makes them stupidly annoying with only cheese strategies able to get around it.
I mean do you call the new Jackal fight stronger and more complex than the old one?  I seriously doubt it.  It's just longer and more boring because all you can do is sit around and twiddle your thumbs while you wait for the boss to become vulnerable....then you shoot it and go right back to twiddling your thumbs.

I think you are only thinking about Warframe and nothing else. There are thousands of game that use mechanics that open up enemies for more damage. When whole animation thing DE did was their choice alone. I think its kind of stupid. We dont need a full screen animation to do the trick. For example God of War requires timing for bonus damage without the long screen animations. There are many other game the list goes on. Same goes to Dark Souls, its not a full cut scene animation but just correct timing for being able to apply the boosted damage or weak points. It should be as fluid as doing ground finishers or finishers from staggers. There is no full cut animation and it flows perfectly.

[DoomFruit]

20 hours ago, kwlingo said:

It should be as fluid as doing ground finishers or finishers from staggers. There is no full cut animation and it flows perfectly.

Those aren't fluid. The change which moved standing finishers from the melee key to the use key is something which the playerbase has been screaming for since the game first came out. Being locked into some preset animation, no matter how short you might think it is, breaks the flow of the game. And since this game's unique selling point is fast, smooth gameplay flow, that's an enormous problem.

[kwlingo]

3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Those aren't fluid. The change which moved standing finishers from the melee key to the use key is something which the playerbase has been screaming for since the game first came out. Being locked into some preset animation, no matter how short you might think it is, breaks the flow of the game. And since this game's unique selling point is fast, smooth gameplay flow, that's an enormous problem.

You must hate lots of game out in the history of time than. Hope things get better one day. Its hilarious that part of the Warframe community still want no challenge what so ever and love the AFK mechanics that got Khora questioned. Guess some things will never change.

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2020-08-30 at 2:13 PM, Marvelous_A said:

Honestly who is responsible for the balance of these bosses?

An immunity phase with health regeneration AND damage reflect is the worst combination possible for a boss.

Void dash supposedly ends this phase prematurely but it actually doesn't do anything at all neither do amps and void blast. Actually from what I've seen if you attempt to void dash into them  there is chance you get forced out of Transference and die instantly because your warframe get one-shot.

Immunity has no CD it can stay immune to damage for a minute and leave you with nothing to do but standing and praying for the immunity to end quickly.

Damage reflect (aka the immunity phase itself) has no telegraph at all it is entirely possible to kill yourself instantly without you knowing you're going to kill yourself.

If it has to say, then make void dash does what it is supposed to do or else just remove the immunity entirely.

I feel you, but asking the devs to design better than trash AI is asking too much because they flat out refuse to improve in this area of the game always and forever.

Better and more engaging enemy AI with less BS is something people have been screaming about for literally years (among other things) and DE be like "We try, we just never know what players want or how they'll react".

In this case it's just a proven fact that the philisophy of DE is to tell you to play the game the way they say, not what is fun for you.

So, you're left with two options:

1) eat it and have it suck the whole time
2) cheese it and forget about it (octavia or others that quickly down mechs)

The smart option is always option 2 until they nerf it into the ground because it's fun.

Thankfully Octavia is their golden child and is never nerfed despite being insanely more OP in certain ways than several frames combined because reasons, but it is not for us to try and understand the devs, because I promise, if you try to make sense of the absolute mess their game is in, you will indeed drive yourself insane and be filled with unholy rage.

[(PSN)Double991]

While farming the vaults for necramech mods with Nekros I decided that the best counter to their reflect shield is the Rolling Guard mod. Just roll and blast away for the 3 or so seconds you are invincible. Any frame can do it.

[BahamutKaiser]

I mean, it's a mirror system, your using the same stuff, so it doesn't need to change much. Just META mash it. 

[TheGrimCorsair]

I just hunt them with Banshee. As long as they're under Silence's bubble they can't use their powers and it takes a lot less than thirty seconds to burn them down.

Mind, if they get out of the bubble, or Silence wears off and you're slow about recasting, you need to watch out but a bit of range and decent positioning usually solves that.

[fr4gb4ll]

On 2020-10-12 at 1:53 AM, Steel_Rook said:

My solution was similar, though I tend to bring Inaros. I actually entirely gave up shooting their back weak points altogether. I CAN do so using my Archgun but... Well, yet again DE have designed an enemy with a weak point on their back who turns around instantly and runs around constantly. Shooting their arms deals damage to their health. In a lot of cases, I'll just idle and wait for their arms to grow back. Shoot them several times and the Necramech goes down. It's an awfully designed boss fight with lack of telegraphing attacks, lack of telegraphing defences, no guaranteed vulnerability windows and no way to immobilise them. It's Tusk Thumpers all over again, except worse.

indeed, that's also my way of dealing with them - inaros, so i don't have to worry to much of the reflected damage or the range i'm fighting them and further more, i don't use a weapon with a big damage per shot but rather one with a medium damage and a medium firerate (usually my rattleguts kitgun does the job well enough).

i've seen many team mates getting themself killed because of using something like the rubico in close combat to the mech and then not realizing they went down from their own damage output and not so much the mechs firepower (which isn't low either) - i guess the lack of 'telegraphing' their use of the shield is at fault for this.

the worst part though is their ability to rotate so damn fast that, if in solo, you only have the option to either shoot the arms again and again or wait for those occasionally glitches (?) that leaves them immobile for a few seconds. with a team it's more easy ofc since you can encircle them for a while so that hitting the weakspots gets less annoying.

beside that, the banshee silence is a working  way to chesse this fight (though she isn't much fun to play for the rest of the mission imo). as for the above mentioned 'rolling guard' i like to add that this little mod is rather unreliable. i use it on my khora whip-build and it fails to trigger correctly quite often (and no, i didn't forget about the 7s cooldown (at max rank) - it often fails to trigger even when i use it for the first time in a mission). so i would not recommand it very much if some one doesn't like hitting the dirt several times during a mech fight - also the cooldown hampers the fight far too much in my book.

my best results therefore are still (near immortal) inaros with full auto, medium hitting weapon fighting at a medium distance (whenever possible) and healing myself fast (if it were not) with the operator arcane (this also help the other team members who might get hurt in the fight). also, keeping an eye on one owns procs (better yet, that of the other team members) - if you see an rad-proc from mechs attack, go into operator void-mode for a few seconds to prevent getting downed or worse, downing your team.

all in all, the fight isn't too hard but it could be made far more interesting if we didn't need to use cheese-methods to end those fights in a timely manner...

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, fr4gb4ll said:

the worst part though is their ability to rotate so damn fast that, if in solo, you only have the option to either shoot the arms again and again or wait for those occasionally glitches (?) that leaves them immobile for a few seconds. with a team it's more easy ofc since you can encircle them for a while so that hitting the weakspots gets less annoying.

Yup. I have a lot of problems with Necramechs, but this is the big one. I could deal with the slow, I could deal with the damage reflect, I could deal with the mine spam. I can't deal with their core design. An enemy with a back weak point who never exposes it from the front and turns to face you as fast as you can move is just bad design. If you're going to give enemies weakpoints, we need to be able to exploit them. If we can't exploit them then what's the sodding point? Mandatory team requirements? Because bringing team-mates doesn't really make the mechanic good. It just "enables" the mechanic.

Long story short - if an enemy has a back weak point, then they need to have limited rotation speed.

[Sevek7]

You are all aware that you can subsume Banshee's silence, and use that to nullify and prevent all the Necramech abilities. Right?