3rd Party Programs ban policy

[Pasc96]

So I received a 2-week trade ban followed by a warning about running programs that manipulate memory while warframe was running, which I did but the program was NOT used on warframe, it was used ON ANOTHER GAME during an endurance run on steel path. (Gotta keep myself occupied, weird habbit I know but I like cheating and breaking limits in games) I messaged support as soon as I saw the warning and they prompted me here to make this post.

The warning stated that if I am caught running any manipulative programs again while warframe is running I am going to receive a permanent ban. This of course got me extremely anxious and paranoid and generally made warframe a hostile enviroment all of a sudden. While I understand the need to keep warframe safe from cheaters you need to understand that this is extremely harsh, I mean if I had not read that warning I might have used the program again ON ANOTHER GAME and get myself a permanent ban without knowing what's up. (Lucky me I guess) For the record I have not thought about cheating in warframe in 7 years (When I made my account), why start now? I am too invested in this game to risk a permanent ban.

So my plea to the developers is to find other ways to block out cheaters, one idea I mentioned in the support chat that got me posting in here was... and I quote me "I'd much prefer to see a message in login screen saying HEY YOU KNOW WHAT? TURN THAT OFF than receiving a permanent ban", like completely block access to game if anything dodgy is running in the background. Please please please developers this has made me paranoid.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Reminds me of twitch fortnight streamers who conveniently "forgot" to turn of their 3rd party "software". Unfortunately scanning at launch isnt effective at id'ng suspicious software as they can be turn on after warframe is launched.

[KIREEK]

The issue is that you would know exactly what triggers it and DE doesn't want you to make a list of what works and what doesn't, they simply wait for you to slip.

Altough at some point they had a feature that warned users about cheat engine, it's unknown why they removed it, but since that moment many users got punished just by having the process running unintentionally.

[Pasc96]

I mean warframe can just yeet you into login screen or something, anything other than perma bans jesus.

 

[Pasc96]

@KIREEK Since you used names Cheat engine is what I used on some clicker game, also in league of legends for instance if you have cheat engine open you get kicked out of the game until you close the CE

[johnno23]

Some kind of warning would be helpful as opposed to suddenly trying to launch Warframe and finding that you cannot play the game anymore. 

Similar issue with the use of macros...they are not allowed but many mice have built in macros and I been thinking of getting one as at my age my knuckles hurt after awhile and trying to mash the E key of do some convoluted keyboard mouse combos is getting more difficult as time goes by... being 62 years old means it is only getting worse not going to get better.

Problem is how do you get back to DE if banned from using a mouse with built in macros and they think it was a third party app? 

So I have been holding off on the purchase of such a mouse for a while now and did ask about it here in the forums but the replies were simply...it is a risk. So I strongly agree with your thought on having some kind of warning pop up as then I could safely use such a mouse and if I get a warning I can then contact DE rather than simply be banned from playing.

[Pasc96]

@johnno23 That being said I am also using Razer Synapse for macros. Is that illegal too? Is there some official list as to what is acceptable? I mean they just send us off with 

USE 3RD PARTY AT YOUR OWN RISK

[johnno23]

I posted in a thread here on the forums. it was several months ago now but a search should turn it up.

Thread was quite long and it no where made it clear if it was ok or not. Basically using scripts in software to make a marcro is bannable. That was quite clear. But asking if mouse software or use of it was bannable was totally unclear.

By the way...it was other players in the forums that mentioned it was a risk.......no one from DE would confirm if it was ok or not.

 

[johnno23]

13 minutes ago, Pasc96 said:

@johnno23 That being said I am also using Razer Synapse for macros. Is that illegal too? Is there some official list as to what is acceptable? I mean they just send us off with 

USE 3RD PARTY AT YOUR OWN RISK

 

This is the thread I was talking of. Not yet looked to see if was updated to be honest as I only just found it.

[Pasc96]

More paranoia 🙃

P.S. I am getting the same level of paranoia for warframe as I do with steam's VAC

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, Pasc96 said:

it was used ON ANOTHER GAME during an endurance run on steel path [...] find other ways to block out cheaters

You want DE to disable their anti-cheat, so you can "cheat in another game" while AFK farming in Warframe?

Understandable, have a great day.

[Pasc96]

Not disable, not to automatically perma like that, no insight in the bans whatsoever. My warframe account is in pristine condition. You do realise how intrusive this is, right? Not to mention, I'm gonna get banned for not cheating on warframe.

[johnno23]

From what I have read anything used to cheat is a Ban. Perfectly understandable.

If any use of standalone software is used to make macros that could be used to cheat you could get banned but that software might have been intended to assist people with difficulties. However that is the "use at your own risk" issue.

Reading the original post at least the user had a warning. So in many respects that seems to me to be less risk of a total ban as a warning does mean a player could approach DE with an explanation and if needed some evidence as to why they had used the software. I mean DE are people and they are merely trying to protect their property from other people that might try to subvert it in a manner that was never intended.

Regarding the cheat software engines I think DE is perfectly justified in any bans and if a player uses it elsewhere then it is up to themselves to switch it off and not having it run in the background just in case they want to launch a different game. After all it makes no sense at all to have such an app running if it is not being used. in the same vein I would never leave Warframe running in the background as I wanted to take a break and run Quake. I would simply exit one game and launch another otherwise I am simply impacting any game performance by not doing so. 

That leaves only my Mouse software issue. As far as I can tell from reading posts from different threads it should be OK.  That is to say if you own a mouse with proprietary software for that specific brand a player is mapping difficult key combos to make a simplified mouse click. 

My problem is that I can find zero information that states mapping a difficult key combo that I am unable to perform to a mouse button is permitted.

[Pasc96]

Well I am sincerely afraid of opening warframe anymore, all I think is "I am gonna get banned". This is the paranoia I am talking about.

[ALIONATED]

Can't believe you tried to cheat/bot I say no 3rd party software is allowed. 
It deters botters and bot developers.
 

[BRZZAFK]

20小时前 , KIREEK 说:

The issue is that you would know exactly what triggers it and DE doesn't want you to make a list of what works and what doesn't, they simply wait for you to slip.

Altough at some point they had a feature that warned users about cheat engine, it's unknown why they removed it, but since that moment many users got punished just by having the process running unintentionally.

Warning can help cheater know how to bypass the list. Anti cheating is not solid as most people think it is.  Especially warframe allow player to play offline.

[Pasc96]

Again. The reason I made this post is the possibility of getting a permanent ban without insight from anyone. The anti cheat just yeets your account into oblivion, no questions asked. Instead of a perma there could be a soft ban while devs are evaluating your account or something.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

3 minutes ago, Pasc96 said:

Again. The reason I made this post is the possibility of getting a permanent ban without insight from anyone. The anti cheat just yeets your account into oblivion, no questions asked. Instead of a perma there could be a soft ban while devs are evaluating your account or something.

then dont cheat? dont run cheat programs in the background? why cheat in that game?

the fact that it wasnt a instant permaban is a fair warning against that... simply put, just play warframe if you want to play warframe. 

can always use your phone if you want to, or run a virtual machine if your system is powerful enough. DE is quite zealous about anything potentially a cheat.

you can get ingame bans for using no exploits at all if you manage to farm enough resources fast enough. someone was talking about getting trade banned for using the Secura Dual Cestra, and getting too much credits the other day.

[Pasc96]

This ban-fest is absurd. I remember a random guy joined in a mission whining how he might get perma banned on a M rated game because he dropped the F bomb in regional chat.

[Tyreaus]

21 hours ago, Pasc96 said:

So my plea to the developers is to find other ways to block out cheaters, one idea I mentioned in the support chat that got me posting in here was... and I quote me "I'd much prefer to see a message in login screen saying HEY YOU KNOW WHAT? TURN THAT OFF than receiving a permanent ban", like completely block access to game if anything dodgy is running in the background. Please please please developers this has made me paranoid.

There's a few things to say on this, and about other things in the thread.

First thing to get out of the way is macros. The main difference between something like macro software, say AutoHotKey, and something like CheatEngine is what they're working on. Most macro software, even most things built into mice, only simulate inputs. They don't touch the software of the computer. For the most part - especially if you're using it responsibly, like @johnno23 says about shortcutting keyboard inputs to mouse buttons - they're not going to be a problem, and only will be if either A: they're tied to something else exploitative (like that one affinity bug with Khora, certainly not in isolation) or B: they're used to play the game for you - total automation. That's pretty much the major dividing line between what software is kosher and what's no-go.

Second is why something like CheatEngine is bad. Putting it simply: it can mess with things running in the computer's memory. This includes Warframe. That is, those sorts of programs can alter what Warframe is doing. This could be something simple like emulating macro inputs, or could be making the game give you a billion credits. For the really clever, this also includes altering the game to think its running fine despite those modifications. That is a big reason why the game freaks out at the mere presence of the software: it can't be sure it isn't compromised.

Third, the reason it's ill-advised to tell the player what might be an issue and avoid banning outright is because it allows for workarounds. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of applications (and app settings) that can mess with a computer's memory. It's unlikely all of them are included in the internal block-list. So if you're really dedicated, and you get free tries against that anti-cheat system, you can keep cycling through those applications until you find one Warframe doesn't detect. It's the same sort of reason your bank probably limits your failed password attempts: you don't want to let them keep trying, or else they might get it right.

Fourth, on the topic of "soft" bans, is what would be required for evidence. As it is now, the game servers don't keep detailed records of gameplay behaviours - uploads to the server only happen occasionally (e.g. at mission completion) and most of the game is hosted on P2P connections. That saves a lot on server power and bandwidth. The consequence is that they don't really have reams of data saying what players are doing in a mission. Server logs are pretty bare-bones. In order for DE to have a system that handles "evidence" beyond what apps are running - that is, down to the kinds of behaviours you're taking in-game, that sort of detail - requires a good bit of overhead. You're talking bandwidth for possibly millions of players, thousands concurrently, servers to handle that massive uptick in data throughput, people to go through the data for each detection, software to ease on data analysis...so some players can run cheat software for other games. Putting it bluntly: it's not worth the effort.

Lastly, bans for software usage =/= bans for language. Let's not misconstrue issues just because they have the same end result. The issue of students failing a class because of a bad teacher is not the same as students failing a class because of a lack of school funds. Same result, but very different problems leading to them.

As a side-note: be clear. If you have a better way to handle things, describe that better way. Otherwise, if you don't know how they could do things differently, how do you know what you're asking is even reasonable, if possible?

[Pasc96]

The best solution is to give the players the chance to at least appeal the ban. For something really stupid you can lose hours upon hours of commitment.

[Tyreaus]

13 minutes ago, Pasc96 said:

The best solution is to give the players the chance to at least appeal the ban. For something really stupid you can lose hours upon hours of commitment.

And you're sure that's not a thing? There's a whole request form about accounts that seems a decent place to appeal...

[Pasc96]

The support was clear that if my account gets suspended they will not be able to help me.

[Tsukinoki]

On 2020-09-28 at 12:50 AM, Pasc96 said:

So I received a 2-week trade ban followed by a warning about running programs that manipulate memory while warframe was running, which I did but the program was NOT used on warframe, it was used ON ANOTHER GAME during an endurance run on steel path.

Here's the thing:
Its relatively simple and easy, and doesn't impact performance or computer stability or require a root-kit, to scan a list of programs and go "OK, a cheat program is being used, kick out the user."
It is much harder, requires a bunch more computer resources, and usually requires a root-kit of some kind, to actually be able to tell "Is the cheat program being used on Warframes memory?  Or is it being used on another programs memory?"

One method is generally preferred by end users because it doesn't bog down their system and doesn't give the game 100% complete access to everything running on your computer at any time as well as access to most private memory used by the programs outside of the game.
And one method is generally disliked because it allows the developers to see everything on your computer at all times...and if a hacker figures out how to access it is a major security risk.

Warframe is obviously going for the much preferred method of cheat detection...and generally that's enough to catch most cheaters.
Are people like you caught in the crossfire?  Sure...but its easy to avoid it: Just turn off your cheating programs before launching warframe... its not a hard thing to do.

I would much rather game companies just do a program check while the game is running instead of using super invasive root-kits to verify that I'm not cheating due to the potential privacy issues that could occur.  After all do you really want a game to report to their servers: "User Pasc96 has these websites up, these things in memory...." and so on?

On 2020-09-28 at 12:50 AM, Pasc96 said:

like completely block access to game if anything dodgy is running in the background.

And how many chances does someone get before they are banned because they are obviously trying to find out what doesn't trigger that response?

Is the ban penalty harsh?  Somewhat arguably.
Is it completely random bans?  Not at all.
Is it easy to avoid the ban for potential cheating?  Extremely!  Just turn off cheating programs before launching warframe!

[Pasc96]

It sure is easy to remember to turn everything off, but I know I am prone to slip. I will just forget it once as this is pretty much a habit and all it takes is one mistake and this freaks me out. All I am asking from DE is some leniency after the flag because judging by support's input on the matter there is no leniency whatsoever. Am I being absurd?