Make innate base elemental damage unable to combine

[Redpaws]

As the title states, make the base elements (electric/heat/toxin/electric) innate on a weapon unable to combine with other elements from mods and/or buffs.
Essentially it'd work like Saryn's Toxic Lash (which adds toxin damage that doesn't combine with anything), but for all weapons with an innate base element.

While this might sound like a nerf at first, it'd actually open up a LOT of new opportunities with combining elements on weapons. For example, you could have a Glaxion dealing cold/viral/radiation, Ninkondi/Amprex dealing electric/corrosive/heat, etc etc. Being able to always use the base element on a weapon that has it innately would open up a lot of more unique options for builds. This is already the case for weapons with an innate combined element, like Rattleguts being able to use radiation/corrosive/heat.

This would be a nice buff in synergy for Condition Overload and weapons with an innate base element, and would add some extra utility in some cases (like Glaxion always being able to proc cold). Downside is that you can't make a weapon with toxin damage deal viral or corrosive with only one elemental mod, but honestly think that overall, I think being able to have two base elements on a weapon is far more interesting than being able to save one mod slot to make a combined element.

Thoughts?

[Lutesque]

9 hours ago, Redpaws said:

Thoughts?

You're going to have to find some way of giving both Groups what they want because having one or the other exclusively is going to be met with A lot of Resistance.

 

[Redpaws]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

You're going to have to find some way of giving both Groups what they want because having one or the other exclusively is going to be met with A lot of Resistance.

 

People can use weapons that has the desired innate combined element. Or if they want to save a mod slot for a specific element on a weapon, they still have the option of using a riven with one or more elements in it. I still think the pros outweighs the cons, as weapons with innate base elements would feel a lot more unique, as well as actually being more unique, as they'd be able to use two different base elements at the same time.

[Lutesque]

2 minutes ago, Redpaws said:

People can use weapons that has the desired innate combined element.

There's already a problem here... People might not want to.... 

Players can have a tendency to "main" weapons in the same way that they main Warframe's and those players aren't going to see Changing weapons as a solution.

6 minutes ago, Redpaws said:

as they'd be able to use two different base elements at the same time.

Some people don't want that.... For Some people the fact that all a Toxin based weapon needs to create Corrosive or Viral is just One Mod is a large part of that weapon's appeal.... 

 

Like I said... You're going to have to find some way to get both methods to work for people to open up to the idea.... 

The ability to choose is better than forcing everyone into one method or the other ..

 

 

[Redpaws]

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Some people don't want that.... For Some people the fact that all a Toxin based weapon needs to create Corrosive or Viral is just One Mod is a large part of that weapon's appeal....

On the flipside, being able to run viral/toxin on said toxin weapons would make it incredibly effective against steel path corpus, as viral procs would boost the damage of the toxin damage, which ignores shields. Again, I think overall the benefits are way higher than any downside on most weapons. Especially for any melee weapons, because again, one extra element for Condition Overload (though also applies to any status gun used to prime enemies for a CO melee).

The idea of being able to run both heat and cold (or any other mix of two base elements) is really neat, and would really give those weapons with innate base elements just that bit extra uniqueness. Sure, some players might be a bit upset at having to adjust their favorite toxin weapon because they can't get viral or corrosive with a single elemental mod, but I think a lot more players would play around with weapons with innate base elements a lot more just BECAUSE it'd let them do weird combos that's currently not possible.

[Lone_Dude]

"Why should I invest into and use "another weapon with an already combined element" because YOU wanted to mess with my perfectly working weapon? What makes YOU better than me or xxXMomHunter69Xxx? I like my weapons with combining elementals and I wouldn't want to get blocked out of using them because some nobody likes to use them the other way around." - is the response you'll get. Some weapon would benefit from that change, some weapons wouldn't. Players would be pissed. The idea you propose would work better as a toggle - would let you have your way without messing with anyone else.

Personally, I would like the elemental combo mechanic to receive a complete overhaul and allow us to have complete control over it. To pick and choose exactly what combos we want to have. Right now it can be very restrictive. For example, one of the weapons you mentioned - Ninkondi. It has Electricity as its base element. Say I want to have corrosive+heat on it. So I add Toxin and get Corrosive. Cool. But I can't add Heat onto it without adding an electricity mod, as Heat will combine with Toxin leaving me with Gas+Electricity. I have to waste a mod slot, rendering base electricity pretty much useless when it comes to the elemental combination. Same situation happens with rivens that have multiple elementals on them. There needs to be a proper fix, anything else is a bandaid on a gushing wound.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

16 hours ago, Redpaws said:

On the flipside, being able to run viral/toxin on said toxin weapons would make it incredibly effective against steel path corpus, as viral procs would boost the damage of the toxin damage, which ignores shields. Again, I think overall the benefits are way higher than any downside on most weapons. Especially for any melee weapons, because again, one extra element for Condition Overload (though also applies to any status gun used to prime enemies for a CO melee).

The idea of being able to run both heat and cold (or any other mix of two base elements) is really neat, and would really give those weapons with innate base elements just that bit extra uniqueness. Sure, some players might be a bit upset at having to adjust their favorite toxin weapon because they can't get viral or corrosive with a single elemental mod, but I think a lot more players would play around with weapons with innate base elements a lot more just BECAUSE it'd let them do weird combos that's currently not possible.

That's exactly why we don't.

Weapons with innate Corrosive are rare and powerful. The Tysis has no Critical chance to speak of, but Corrosive + Viral is powerful.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Uncombined Base Elements

doesn't this harken back to the days of Rainbow Meta as seen in archguns briefly? which was stupidly overpowered

 

Having elements combine is a part of balancing. Can't just pile up everything to cover all factions; they combine into more specialized elements with pros and cons vs different targets.

 

On a Related Note though

at the moment Innate Elements are applied After the 8th mods slot; in terms of how they combine with other mods.

a Nice Change, would be to have them apply after the 4th mod slot. This way you have room either before or after the Innate to apply additional Elements and get more freedom as to how they combo.

 

[(PSN)blitzzkitten]

I'd be down with this if it were a toggle option, but not as an absolute standard.

[_Tormex_]

12 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

On a Related Note though

at the moment Innate Elements are applied After the 8th mods slot; in terms of how they combine with other mods.

a Nice Change, would be to have them apply after the 4th mod slot. This way you have room either before or after the Innate to apply additional Elements and get more freedom as to how they combo.

 

Dude that would be awesome! So much more flexibility.

[Tiltskillet]

I could be a cool gimmick on a new weapon.  And maybe a few old ones without a niche.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

New status changes. All element with be independent of each other. No more combine elements. Weapons with innate combine element will retain those element. New status mods will be introduce with these changes. New 60/60 mods for each element even IPS.

[Redpaws]

22 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Uncombined Base Elements

doesn't this harken back to the days of Rainbow Meta as seen in archguns briefly? which was stupidly overpowered

 

Having elements combine is a part of balancing. Can't just pile up everything to cover all factions; they combine into more specialized elements with pros and cons vs different targets.

I'm not saying to uncombine all base elements. I'm saying to make innate base elements be consistent with innate combo elements. It's not like adding Heat to a weapon with Radiation will add to the Radiation (unless you also add Electric, of course). But if you build for Radiation on a weapon with innate Heat, that Heat gets rolled into the Radiation damage.
A weapon with an innate combined element will always have that combined element as part of its damage, and I think it'd be far more interesting to see base elements work the same way. It'd give Toxin weapons a real added punch against Corpus, Cold weapons would always offer the added crowd control of slows, etc etc.

On 2020-12-19 at 11:51 AM, Lone_Dude said:

For example, one of the weapons you mentioned - Ninkondi. It has Electricity as its base element. Say I want to have corrosive+heat on it. So I add Toxin and get Corrosive. Cool. But I can't add Heat onto it without adding an electricity mod, as Heat will combine with Toxin leaving me with Gas+Electricity. I have to waste a mod slot, rendering base electricity pretty much useless when it comes to the elemental combination.

If innate elements was always retained and never combined, you could run Corrosive/Heat/Electric though. And it'd allow you to run Viral/Heat/Electric, where as currently there's no way to run Viral/Heat on Ninkondi, as it'd turn into Viral/Radiation.