(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 19 minutes ago, Nash said: Alot of you are just defending the fact that acolytes are bad mini bosses. Just because you can kill them easily, from either melee or shooting them from afar which from my experience is just as bad especially against mania. If a boss can walk up to you and slap you with no wind up, which is what happened to this guy.. it's a poorly designed enemy. Theres no debate. Acolytes are poorly designed enemies, just because you can kill them does not change that. There actually is debate. That's what the 5 pages are. Nice try though. Don't let a boss "walk up to you". Do your melee attacks and abilities have a wind up? Because they're using the same weapons and abilities that we are. If you can't handle taking the same punishment that you deal out to other enemies, then plan accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 31 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: There actually is debate. That's what the 5 pages are. Nice try though. Don't let a boss "walk up to you". Do your melee attacks and abilities have a wind up? Because they're using the same weapons and abilities that we are. If you can't handle taking the same punishment that you deal out to other enemies, then plan accordingly. Wrong, just because a player can doesn't mean the enemy should thats like saying just because dante from dmc5SE can spam sin devil triggers judgement, doesn't mean his boss variant should. Just because I can spam avalanche doesn't mean, the solar rail frost spectre should. Just because I can spam peacemaker doesnt mean the solar rail mesa spectre should. Just because I can shoot my gun precisely doesn't mean an AI should. Just because we can doesn't mean an AI should be able to. You're defending bad boss design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, Nash said: Wrong, just because a player can doesn't mean the enemy should thats like saying just because dante from dmc5SE can spam sin devil triggers judgement, doesn't mean his boss variant should. Just because I can spam avalanche doesn't mean, the solar rail frost spectre should. Just because I can spam peacemaker doesnt mean the solar rail mesa spectre should. Just because I can shoot my gun precisely doesn't mean an AI should. Just because we can doesn't mean an AI should be able to. You're defending bad boss design. Yes, they should be able to, and they do. If you can't handle the game mode being slightly more difficult and making you actually move around and use the movement system as its intended, then you can practice more or try the regular starchart until you're ready. I've already said, the acolytes aren't regular enemies. They're possibly warframes just like us, warframes imbued with power from the main villain of the story. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 14 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: Yes, they should be able to, and they do. If you can't handle the game mode being slightly more difficult and making you actually move around and use the movement system as its intended, then you can practice more or try the regular starchart until you're ready. I've already said, the acolytes aren't regular enemies. They're possibly warframes just like us, warframes imbued with power from the main villain of the story. Deal with it. And thats foolish... foolish, poor game design and precisely why bosses are disrespected in warframe because they should just be dealt with, with a nice slab of cheese. Just because we can doesn't mean they should you'd be changing your tune real quick if they had mods as well. Wouldn't you. If the mesa acolyte had her regulators and aim botted you to death. You're in the same boat as him. Proper enemies give you a chance to move even in melee range, punishment comes from poor positioning. Special ranged enemies give a chance to dodge before firing. Proper enemies, both regular or special. Don't try and hit me with lore as justification, thats poor reasoning as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 12 minutes ago, Nash said: And thats foolish... foolish, poor game design and precisely why bosses are disrespected in warframe because they should just be dealt with, with a nice slab of cheese. Just because we can doesn't mean they should you'd be changing your tune real quick if they had mods as well. Wouldn't you. If the mesa acolyte had her regulators and aim botted you to death. You're in the same boat as him. Proper enemies give you a chance to move even in melee range, punishment comes from poor positioning. Special ranged enemies give a chance to dodge before firing. Proper enemies, both regular or special. Don't try and hit me with lore as justification, thats poor reasoning as well. You're playing a game with it's own story and fictional world. Ignoring the entire game as it comes as a whole is poor reasoning as well. You don't get to damage eidolons with abilities because you want to, you have to work within the stories world and rules. Deal with it. The AI is fine enough, which is why Mesa Acolytes wouldn't spam Regulators at us. Keep in mind that's only something bad players do that lack depth. If an acolyte was to use regulators, there would obviously be a prompt to either CC them or get outta the way, or simply go into void mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graavarg Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 3 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said: If you give a boss tools like Stasis, Inferno, Miasma, Lockdown, lifting, Firing Line, Ensnare, or literally any other unavoidable AoE/CC as they are, you are just asking for a disastrous experience. Strong AoEs and CCs are fine as skills employed by PvE enemies, but they need to be avoidable either through sheer reflexes or pattern recognition, and you can do that only if you add telegraphs. I don't agree. There are other ways to avoid getting hit, including hiding or hitting first. I have absolutely nothing against enemy attacks that comes with a signal, but that is something completely different from demanding that such signals is "a must". Signals of no signals, it is up to you to handle the challenge. Designating a challenge as "wrong" because you cannot handle in in a certain way/playstyle or with a certain warframe is thus illogical. This thread is about a need to nerf the acolytes (or some of them), with Lavos used as an initial example. The argument was along the lines that as one of tankier warfames in the game, he should withstand the attack from Mania (or as someone put it, "be able to facetank" that attack). This evolved into "signals" as a way of avoiding the attack, or rather "the lack of signals being a problem" while facetanking, because you have no time to react to the (presumably) lethal attack from the acolyte. It also led to the suggestion that constructing your loadout and using the abilities of your warframe, weapons and operator is "less skill" than doing an evasive maneuver as a result of an "attack signal". I am not claiming all these ideas are yours (they are not, just for the record) but this is basically what I am discussing. Since I have differing opinions: I don't think lethal attacks (without signals) are wrong, I don't think signals + evasive maneuvers is a pre-requisite for skill (instead there is quite a lot more skill involved in taking on SP Acolytes) and I see no reason why the game should be changed so that "tanky warframes" can facetank an acolyte (just because they are "tanky"). Additionally I see absolutely no logical reason why Warframe being a "horde shooter" (or whatever) and PVE (instead of PVP) should hinder that we get smarter, better and more deadly single enemies. Instead I think it is good (for the game) that we can actually die (to a single enemy). I think such enemies are a great addition to the game, signals or no signals, and I want more of them. I think it is very good that we get the table turned against us, so that we get a taste of our own abilities. And I don't mind dying, such "wtf just happened"-moments might hurt my demi-god soul a bit, but they generally lead to new insights and ideas. Also being an unkillable demi-god gets quite boring... I completely agree that basing single-enemy encounters on "enemy AI skill" instead of gimmicks is preferrable, especially since the starchart is full of gimmicky bosses anyway. So the idea of balancing the acolyte-fights so that they take longer and demand "more fighting" is perfectly good. I just don't accept that from follows that the current fights are "bad". 3 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said: I perfectly agree here, but I don't agree when "breaking down a theory into parts" becomes building a strawman. Reducing my argument from "Let's give bosses frequent, powerful attacks that can threaten even pseudo-immortal frames, which, however, can be avoided with mechanical skill thanks to telegraphs" to is building a strawman. Actually, this is a misunderstanding. I was referencing the central "core message" of the thread according to the original post(s), not your posts explicitly. I could have been a bit clearer on that part, I had no intention of putting words in your mouth. Sorry about that. 3 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said: if, that signal gets added on top of actually threatening skills, skills that can pose a threat to a 50k ehp Inaros, a shield-gate abusing frame, a perma-invisible Ivara, a functionally invincible Revenant, a 95% DR frame, et cetera. Stuff like instant wipes, big damage spikes, crippling debuffs, area denial. Why does it add skill? Because in the current iteration of warframe, every single activity can be fully trivialized with a couple of good mods, and the acolytes are one of the most egregious examples. If you decouple almost fully the "avoiding damage" part of combat from gear, in specific instances, and delegate mechanical skill to that role (read: good timings, quick reactions, spatial awareness), you can, finally, have fair challenge and engagement. I look at this from a "move" vs "counter-move" perspective, where the "counter-move" can be anything that is effective. This includes selecting gear and abilities in advance, flashing away into the adjoining room when the acolyte spawns, going into void mode, going invisible, whatever. All this takes skill, including applying your selected counter-moves during the fight. From this perspective the acolytes are impressive enemies, while it is fairly simple to counter each of them the challenge is both that you don't know which acolyte that will come to fight and that you will have to encounter all of them during a longer mission (more or less, 100 min. = approx. 20 acolytes). And from this also follows both that you don't have all that many ways to counter them all and that some of them will be (a lot) more lethal to whatever setup you choose. If you would make all of them fight in the same way (with signals), fighting acolytes would become easier since you would get a new multi-tool against every one of them (reacting to the signal). It is not impossible to construct a fighting system "with signals" that would be on the same level of challenge as the current one, but that would entail giving them new moves against your "counter-moves", otherwise the signals would make all acolyte fights more trivial. After all, using the same skill against all of them is not exactly all that skillful, is it? On a completely separate but similar note I would like all "high level" content to include new gimmicks for shutting our tried and true OP stuff down. Stuff like "void inhibitors", "invisibility poppers", "exponential damage from moving speed", "damage reflectors", you name it. Could be enemy abilities, grenades, deployables, fixed installations, just about anything. Just so that we would have to use more of huge variety of warframes and weapons we have at our disposal. But the focus should be on making us actually think once in a while, not just adding gating and/or mission fillers. --- On the same note but from a different perspective I would like to see a lot more "anti-Tenno" gimmicks in high level content. Stuff like "void inhibitors", "invisibility poppers", "exponential damage distributors linked to moving", "damage reflectors", you name it. From enemies, grenades, enemy deployables, fixed installations. As long as the core concept is making us think more, both in-mission and before. And NOT just adding gating or mission fillers. It hurts the immersiveness (for me) that all my enemies are so abominably stupid that even after I've waltzed through a spy mission for the 1000th time using the same NN they can't figure out a way to try and stop me. Connecting this "off topic" reflection back to thread: I would extremely happy if DE analyzed the tools we are using to trivialize acolytes, and gave them their own (new) "counter-moves". I am sure some Kuva farmers (oops, meant "Steel Essence farmers", of course) would scream, cry and tear out their hair (again), if the acolytes got a bit tougher. Since it would interfere with their semi-AFK farming habits. But that aside it would actually content-wise be welcome with a few even tougher enemies. Even if they started signaling some of their moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: You're playing a game with it's own story and fictional world. Ignoring the entire game as it comes as a whole is poor reasoning as well. You don't get to damage eidolons with abilities because you want to, you have to work within the stories world and rules. Deal with it. The AI is fine enough, which is why Mesa Acolytes wouldn't spam Regulators at us. Keep in mind that's only something bad players do that lack depth. If an acolyte was to use regulators, there would obviously be a prompt to either CC them or get outta the way, or simply go into void mode. Mesa acolytes don't have regulators in the first place, oh yes so you agree that there should be prompts and wind ups you are on your way to designing a better boss and of course theres the end all get out jail free card if you can't dodge void mode. Pretty sure CC doesn't work on acolytes other than cold status procs. Ignoring lore isn't what I'm doing I'm ignoring you using them being warframes with the same weapons we have as justification for how poorly designed they are. AI isn't the issue it's what they do as an enemy. Even mitachurls have more depth, because of what they do. Difficulty comes from animations and what effects thats animations have on the area and player. Acolytes as a whole lack that giving them warframe abilities doesn't change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Nash said: Mesa acolytes don't have regulators in the first place, oh yes so you agree that there should be prompts and wind ups you are on your way to designing a better boss and of course theres the end all get out jail free card if you can't dodge void mode. Pretty sure CC doesn't work on acolytes other than cold status procs. Ignoring lore isn't what I'm doing I'm ignoring you using them being warframes with the same weapons we have as justification for how poorly designed they are. AI isn't the issue it's what they do as an enemy. Even mitachurls have more depth, because of what they do. Difficulty comes from animations and what effects thats animations have on the area and player. Acolytes as a whole lack that giving them warframe abilities doesn't change that. It was just an example. They dont use regulators for an obvious reason. And you don't get to pick and choose when to ignore the lore. If you have trouble fighting acolytes then get some teammates, that's what they're there for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: It was just an example. They dont use regulators for an obvious reason. And you don't get to pick and choose when to ignore the lore. If you have trouble fighting acolytes then get some teammates, that's what they're there for. Yes I do because lore has nothing to do with how a boss acts towards a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Nash said: Yes I do because lore has nothing to do with how a boss acts towards a player. Except for when it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: Except for when it does. Rubbish, animations and how a boss attacks the player isn't connected to lore, its connected to difficulty. However the concept behind the boss is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Nash said: Rubbish, animations and how a boss attacks the player isn't connected to lore, its connected to difficulty. However the concept behind the boss is. In your subjective opinion. This isn't final fantasy where you need large highlighted areas that tell you when to move and when to take cover. It's a fast paced combat game. Be aware of enemy movements and mechanics and move accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 24 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: In your subjective opinion. This isn't final fantasy where you need large highlighted areas that tell you when to move and when to take cover. It's a fast paced combat game. Be aware of enemy movements and mechanics and move accordingly. Alright, I'm putting on the infinity gauntlet with all the stones. Warframe can't be compared to final fantasy because they aren't the same in terms of combat, fast paced games such as vindictus, dragon nest, devil may cry are much closer in comparison. You're just using that as justification to ignore that warframes enemies are poorly done animation wise, you know nothing of actual engagement and probably don't spend much time outside of the cheese barrel you call fast paced, this entire chat with you I have been using prime examples of why special enemies should not be the same or compared to players, and why they shouldn't because it's lazy and poorly designed. It leads to threads like this one, ones regarding profit-taker, and pre nerfed kuva liches. You have no PvE game experience to know any better. Why am I bullet jumping away from mania? Because hes an unrelenting cheesing goof that spams melee and turbulence with no wind up... I'm probably going to have to move like this for a while. Versus. Because he just used a deadly attack I had to dodge, although when I land I should be able to go up to him and melee for a bit before his next attack. You decide my guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 32 minutes ago, Nash said: Alright, I'm putting on the infinity gauntlet with all the stones. Warframe can't be compared to final fantasy because they aren't the same in terms of combat, fast paced games such as vindictus, dragon nest, devil may cry are much closer in comparison. You're just using that as justification to ignore that warframes enemies are poorly done animation wise, you know nothing of actual engagement and probably don't spend much time outside of the cheese barrel you call fast paced, this entire chat with you I have been using prime examples of why special enemies should not be the same or compared to players, and why they shouldn't because it's lazy and poorly designed. It leads to threads like this one, ones regarding profit-taker, and pre nerfed kuva liches. You have no PvE game experience to know any better. Why am I bullet jumping away from mania? Because hes an unrelenting cheesing goof that spams melee and turbulence with no wind up... I'm probably going to have to move like this for a while. Versus. Because he just used a deadly attack I had to dodge, although when I land I should be able to go up to him and melee for a bit before his next attack. You decide my guy. Warframe is it's own game. It shouldn't be compared to anything, it was just an example. Learn to be mobile or get some teammates to help you if you need it. You have many tools available to help you defeat all enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 9 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: Warframe is it's own game. It shouldn't be compared to anything, it was just an example. Learn to be mobile or get some teammates to help you if you need it. You have many tools available to help you defeat all enemies. I can't be more mobile so your advice won't help me in the slightest, Warframe is its own game but can learn from others, all of warframes issues can be fixed by learning from its predecessors. Like I said, you have no PvE experience. Go into your hidey hole. If that's all you're going to post because it doesn't add to the conversation, nor does it relate to the core issue of this entire thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 44 minutes ago, Nash said: I can't be more mobile so your advice won't help me in the slightest, Warframe is its own game but can learn from others, all of warframes issues can be fixed by learning from its predecessors. Like I said, you have no PvE experience. Go into your hidey hole. If that's all you're going to post because it doesn't add to the conversation, nor does it relate to the core issue of this entire thread. What exactly is "PVE experience"? Can you go ahead and define or quantify that for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 I keep coming back to check on this every few days and I'm always both reaffirmed and shocked by the argument for and against a tell for mania's switch teleport (which is what disables the player). I'm shocked because switch teleport already has a tell when it's cast on you so the argument about the tell should be moot, it already exists. I'm always reaffirmed because I keep saying it's a useless tell because people can't notice it with buffs and all the effects going on around the frame and every argument about if the tell should exist or not confirms that it is failing in its literally only job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: What exactly is "PVE experience"? Can you go ahead and define or quantify that for me? PvE experience comes from experiencing multiple PvE games. How else you want me to put it, you lack experience in PvE games. I can tell from you saying warframe is its own game, even though animation is vast in its application and how it's implemented in games. Not just in warframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 On 2021-02-23 at 2:00 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: What exactly is "PVE experience"? Can you go ahead and define or quantify that for me? On 2021-02-23 at 3:07 PM, Nash said: PvE experience comes from experiencing multiple PvE games. How else you want me to put it, you lack experience in PvE games. I can tell from you saying warframe is its own game, even though animation is vast in its application and how it's implemented in games. Not just in warframe. Yup While i will say it's important to be unique, the effects of making sure your game pleases the largest audience possible shouldnt be underestimated. Sacrificing some of that 'uniqueness' for similarity, in a way that effectively increases the game's popularity, can do many things like: - Giving you more money that allows you to use wage to attract more people to work for you. - Be used as a way to keep players occupied while you think of something to make your game more unique. - Give you a new foundation for something that you can innovate off of (like nightwave battle pass giving lore about warframe and such). Its a really great thing to do sometimes, especially when youre "unique" has begun to cause you serious problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)ThanatosSloth Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 I'm pretty sure it's misery that has the 1 hit ko...cause I also had the same thing happen to me...my personal experience was that I was alone though, no mobs, saw him spawn, attempted to stagger, and he just did a excal slashdash teleport that killed me...and I had full shield so invuln should have been in place but wasent...he did no other attack except the one slash....its happened twice for me now lol...other acolytes are fine...this one is alittle absurd...I think the coding on that attack might just be a bit skewed lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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