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Ranged Weapons and Melee weapons should rely on each other for maximum effectiveness.


keikogi
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     I think warframe should reward people for using both melee weapons and ranged weapons, flowing between the two weapons styles between the mission, in this way the gameplay would be less repetitive. I’m not trying to not melee into the ground, nor I’m trying to force ranged weapon users to spent half of their time using a melee weapon. However I do want to make these play style complement each other.

The Problem 

     Usually, games balance the equation of melee vs tanged by making the melee weapons have a high enough dps to justify the risk and time of gap closing. However, this method does not work in warframe due to the combination off high base mobility and level here. Here the basic gist of the unbalance able nature of this problem.

Time you take to gap close G ( let's say G =1 seconds for the sake of simpler tough experiments) 

Ranged dps = X ( again just placeholders to show fundamentals ) 

Melee dps = 1.5 X 

     If the enemy at LVL 50 has 3 X as hp. Both ranged weapon and melee weapons will be a equally viable choice taking 3 s to kill the enemy. If the enemy goes up to LVL 120 and has 30 x hp melee weapons will take 21 seconds to kill an enemy and ranged weapon will take 30 seconds, with makes the melee weapon roughly 50% more effective. You see for melee weapon to be viable they have to do more damage than ranged weapons due to time to gap close , if they to more damage they will be thr only viable weapon as soon the level scaling shows it ugly head. It's impossible to make both viable at the same time unless one feeds the other , because whatever braking point off equivalent you create will be broken by LVL scaling.

If you want to bring up the thousands of different damage multiplier here for you

Spoiler

 

A -> damage multiplier that affects both ranged and melee weapons equally.

B -> damage multiplier that only affects melee weapons.

C- > damage multiplier that only affects Ranged weapons.

If you include the multiplier A, the only thing it will accomplish is reduce the equilibrium level

If you include the multiplier B, you will reduce the equilibrium level and raise the size of the gap at the higher end.

If you include the multiplier C, there are two possible results either ranged weapons will be superior all the time or you just raise the minimum lvl necessary for melee weapons outclass ranged ones.

 

     If you want to bring up blade charger and the Primary charger, well odds are you would achieve more by just using a pure melee arcane package because blade charger is addictive with condition overload and primaries have way less DPS than just using your melee would achieve.

     At this point you would argue if you can´t balance it why even bothers changing it?

     Well indeed it’s impossible to fix the dps math, however there are three solutions that can make both useful at the same time.

Give them different roles (one for dps, other for utility)

Give one off them limited uses (make gun better but make armor scarce)

Make them rely on each other for optimal outcome.

 

My Solution 

     I am here to explore the solution of making them rely on each other. The basic gist of it is both melee weapons and ranged weapons have combo counters, but the melee combo counter is used by the ranged weapon and the melee combo counter would be used by ranged weapons. Both combo counters have the duration of 10 seconds and stop decaying if the player lands hits(regardless of building up the combo counter, and regardless of the source of the hit)

I will divide the proposal into sections.

How the ranged weapons generate combo?

     Each ranged weapon would generate combo on hit, and generate combo double the amount on headshots, however different would have different combo chances, for example a smg would have a 10% combo chance so it does not build a combo to fast and a bow would have 1500% combo chance (the new unique role for bows would be melee support).

How to use the combo count created by ranged weapons?

     Combo will be used to finally Implement the fated “Devil Trigger System” that´s never implemented. To activate the devil trigger the player just has to equip the melee weapon ( if the player only has the melee weapon, just holding f will to the trick )( note: holding space will also activate aim glide to fix the whole blocking midair problem ). Devil trigger will give melee multshot (after image attacking), close range teleport ( aw melee teleport on the ground ) , full frontal deflection (defects hits on the front without animation lock, a after image will perform the deflection/parry ). Duration based on the ranged combo count.

    Melee combo mods will be reworked to allow you to build up the ranged weapon combo while using a melee weapon. The weeping wounds / bood rush will scale out of the ranged weapon combo.

     Charge attacks are no longer affected by combo, nor consume it. Charge attack now have Innate armor pierce (they ignore a portion off the enemy base armor , amount ignored depend on the weapon class for example daggers would have 600 armor ignore, so they would bypass the armor on most enemies , on the other hand a weapon like the redeemer would ignore just 150 base armor ).

How would melee weapon generate Combo?

    As is.

How would you use the combo generated by melee weapons?

    On next reload combo generated by the melee weapon will be consumed to empower the shots on that magazine. Empowered shots blow up on impact dealing AOE damage (AOE depends on the weapon type, using as examples automatic rifles would have a small aoe and bow a massive one). Total damage added is based on the new start the new empowered shot stat and combo tier.

New mods to support both mainly ranged play styles and melee one.

Thief Blade(melee)- steals ammo from the enemy magazine and place it on yours.

Shadow step(melee) - teleports on up to 30 m on melee strike (requires target), return to original position after 5 seconds or killing the target.  

Rush down(melee)- -50% combo chance, on melee strike, 100% attack speed and 100% combo chance for 5 seconds, 10 s cd.

Assasin´s Mark (primary) – on head shot- enemies takes increased melee damage

Explosive Parasite (secondary) – on headshot- mark the enemy for lash out. Upon death enemies lash out dealing the reaming bleed and poison damage they would have taken.  

 

Edit 

The problem with my solution and Future Plans

     Turns out that after reflecting a bit a just moved the equilibrium point and accidentally created a skinner box to distract people from the fundamental problem off the issue and just added a lot off busy work to simply change the equilibrium level. Melee weapon inherently benefit from using ranged weapon to set up status and dps while outside of melee range while ranged weapons don´t benefit at all from nothing a melee weapons provides.

My plans for the next shot at it

    Well just use create a single combo count (with the whole combo chance stat on ranged weapons). Hold R consumes the combo and reloads the weapon using void bullets that deal aoe damage on top off the weapon damage. Charge attacks also consume the combo counter. Since the buff stacking nature off the game makes impossible to properly balance flowing between weapons and melee weapons already benefit from ranged weapons, I will think off incredible powerful utility melee mods so people can sacrifice their melee weapon to get a “magic wand” ( so people can voluntarily turn their e into another skill instead off a barely used beating stick )

Edited by keikogi
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1 hour ago, keikogi said:

I’m not trying to not melee into the ground, nor I’m trying to force ranged weapon users to spent half of their time using a melee weapon.

But thats exactly what you are trying to do. Each player has their playstyle and reason to play, if i came into Warframe for Gunplay, i dont want to be forced to use my Melee to be efficient not if im into the Hack-N-Slashing i dont want to be forced to use guns.

I my self use both and very well but its situational. If an enemy comes too close i will slash it down, if its too far i will shoot it, if i see a group of enemies which my firearm cant hit all at the same time i will leap or spin towards them and start to melee them down, if enemies are coming down a hallway in a line i will shoot them so my projectile pierces through and kills all of them.

Also, your idea overly complicates the game mechanics and from what i can see also would contribute to power creeping since Melee weapons are already very strong as is and your idea also adds MultiShot for Melee? Hows this even suppose to work? You do know that Melee weapons already can strike multiple targets? There is also the "Weeping Wounds/Blood rush" scaling thing, personally i dont want to see these mods being mandatory in any build or playstyle.

1 hour ago, keikogi said:

 New mods to support both mainly ranged play styles and melee one.

Thief Blade(melee)- steals ammo from the enemy magazine and place it on yours.

Shadow step(melee) - teleports on up to 30 m on melee strike (requires target), return to original position after 5 seconds or killing the target.  

Rush down(melee)- -50% combo chance, on melee strike, 100% attack speed and 100% combo chance for 5 seconds, 10 s cd.

Marked for death (primary) – on head shot- enemies takes increased melee damage

Explosive Parasite (secondary) – on headshot- mark the enemy for lash out. Upon death enemies lash out dealing the reaming bleed and poison damage they would have taken.  

Im pretty sure no one would use these mods, no one would sacrifice essential damage mods or elemental combos, or even riven spaces to place these.

Thief Blade - Ammo isnt hard to com by, especially with Mutators or the Carrier sentinel, theres also the fact some weapons have no "Ammo" and instead a Recharge system that allows it to recharge on its own when idle, you can also add Exilus mods like [Tactical Reload], [Lock and Load] and [Eject Magazine] that allow any weapon to automatically reload its self when holstered which works great in between gun shots and melee attacks, i my self use this in some weapons.

In my case i use the Catchmoon with Pax charge Arcane which grants it infinite ammo/recharge.

Shadow Step - Hows this suppose to work? There is the Rift Strike mod that is exclusive to the Twin Basolk and teleports you to a target enemy when using Heavy Attack and striking them.

Rush Down - +100% Melee attack speed is absurdly OP, Primed Fury only gives 55% with a 16 mod point cost and Arcane Strike gives +60% with no cooldown for 18 seconds. Also doesnt the -50% Combo Chance kinda contradict the +100% bonus? At the end you will only have a +50% bonus overall.
The fact the effect triggers on ANY melee attack kinda makes it unreliable since you cant save the effect for when you actually need it, it will keep triggering again every 10 seconds even when you only have 1 enemy to kill or is going full Stealth.

Marked for Death - There is already a Helminth ability with that name, whats the amount increased? Also there are Arcanes for Primary, Secondary and Melee that increase Melee damage done for a wile.

Explosive Parasite - This arcane is plain bad because it forces players to both use a Slash and/or Toxic based weapon. There are already enough Slash based and benefiting mods out there, dont need more things making Slash stronger than it already is. You also failed to add a limited time to kill the enemy in order to benefit from this.

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46 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

But thats exactly what you are trying to do. Each player has their playstyle and reason to play, if i came into Warframe for Gunplay, i dont want to be forced to use my Melee to be efficient not if im into the Hack-N-Slashing i dont want to be forced to use guns.

I my self use both and very well but its situational. If an enemy comes too close i will slash it down, if its too far i will shoot it, if i see a group of enemies which my firearm cant hit all at the same time i will leap or spin towards them and start to melee them down, if enemies are coming down a hallway in a line i will shoot them so my projectile pierces through and kills all of them.

There  a section addressing that.

the problem with the whole if the enemy is close I melee if the enemy is far I fire gun is this require a proper balance between these. This balance cannot be achive becasue melee weapons need to have higher dps to justify their existence ( or do something that´s not damage ) , this balance works wondres on a game without level scaling becasue devs can fine tune the math between risk , time to gap close and dps gap, but since enemies scaling indefinitevely and high base mobility throws  this balance out of wack , because it will always favors melee when the game scaling shows it ugly head. 

Futhermore the way the game desing (compouding 2 mutipliers on the same weapon is better then using , 3 mutipliers that affect 1 weapon each)  it´s damage makes especiallizing on a weapon type favorable so being able to turn the other type on a source of utlity is the only way to make sure it won´t go ununsed. 

46 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Thief Blade - Ammo isnt hard to com by, especially with Mutators or the Carrier sentinel, theres also the fact some weapons have no "Ammo" and instead a Recharge system that allows it to recharge on its own when idle, you can also add Exilus mods like [Tactical Reload], [Lock and Load] and [Eject Magazine] that allow any weapon to automatically reload its self when holstered which works great in between gun shots and melee attacks, i my self use this in some weapons.

If im using my primary or secondary as my main source of damage , I dont want to waste a slot on my main source of damage. Im adressing both ammo issues and reload issues with 1 mod instead of using 1 mod to adress reload ( given that a waste the time to swithc weapons that sometimes is worse than the reload itself , expexially if there any lag involved ) and a companion slot or another mod (pontentilly exilus ). You are literally pitching two mods agaist one , and saying the mod that replaces two mods ( ammo mutation , and ammo refil ) is a bad deal. Also as per already said compounding mutiplier , wasting a mod slot on the weapon that will use to actually do damage is way worse than loosing a slot a weapon that not your mains source of damage.

46 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Shadow Step - Hows this suppose to work? There is the Rift Strike mod that is exclusive to the Twin Basolk and teleports you to a target enemy when using Heavy Attack and striking them.

Its that but no charge attack , just e and go , if the enemy dies or 5 seconds pass you go back to the origin point. 

46 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Rush Down - +100% Melee attack speed is absurdly OP, Primed Fury only gives 55% with a 16 mod point cost and Arcane Strike gives +60% with no cooldown for 18 seconds. Also doesnt the -50% Combo Chance kinda contradict the +100% bonus? At the end you will only have a +50% bonus overall.
The fact the effect triggers on ANY melee attack kinda makes it unreliable since you cant save the effect for when you actually need it, it will keep triggering again every 10 seconds even when you only have 1 enemy to kill or is going full Stealth.

Thats literally the point of the mod if you are going to melee go for it, no taps , no beating around the bush. Saying its op is a bad assesient of the situation. Berseker gives 75% attack speed at 9 capacity cost , this mod gives 100% but only has 50% uptime. On average it is worse dps than fury 55% dps increse , On average it worse than berserker 75% dps increase compared to this mod 50% dps increase, even on brust damage it´s not that amazing becasue the buff only goes of after the first strike making so it´s not particalary amazing it brust either. It´s only usefull on the situation that you are not going full melee, and its precely where it should be and it. 

46 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Marked for Death - There is already a Helminth ability with that name, whats the amount increased? Also there are Arcanes for Primary, Secondary and Melee that increase Melee damage done for a wile.

Chaged the name to Assasin mark , the arcanes are quite diferent from this ability. This mod requires a headshot not kill , a kill requiriment is a build check a headshot requiriment is a skill check. Also this mod works as a debuff not a buff, has a lot diferences as far as gameplay is concerned. 

46 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

xplosive Parasite - This arcane is plain bad because it forces players to both use a Slash and/or Toxic based weapon. There are already enough Slash based and benefiting mods out there, dont need more things making Slash stronger than it already is. You also failed to add a limited time to kill the enemy in order to benefit from this.

It a mod , you use it if you want. It was not me the created the ecosystem where slash procs and forced slash procs are king , just making a mod to work off it. Addinga duration for it seems unecessary , it does not really change the desing it just changes how annoying it is to use. 

 

Edited by keikogi
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I'd like to go into a mid to high level mission with only a properly modded Primary or Secondary and be as effective as if I had gone into a mission with only a melee weapon with a mediocre mod setup. No status priming one way or the other... just effective weapons across the board. Not all weapons need to be top tear, but all weapons should at least be on par with other weapons of similar MR or investment. 

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I like the direction of this as it definently adds reason to switch weapons, you have my like, but

6 hours ago, Raso719 said:

I'd like to go into a mid to high level mission with only a properly modded Primary or Secondary and be as effective

I also see where this is coming from. 

I think theres a way to make ranged weapons be able to compete with melee, and give them different reasons to be used.

 

To start, maybe the combo counter should just count for both weapons. So if i hit max combo count with only ranged attacks, both my melee and my ranged weapons benefit from it equally.

This way, after you finish meleeing something, you can shoot another enemy while youre closing the gap to keep your combo counter up

Next, add a "heavy attack" function to ranged weapons. Their version could be done by holding the reload button and for the attack it could create a limited number of special bullets for a a fixed amount of time. These bullets will fire whenever you fire your weapon at a seperate fire rate of 1 per second (basically imagine firing two weapons with seperate fire rates, except them being fused into one). The damage from these projectiles should add up to around 50-75% of what a heavy attack from a melee weapon. 

The melee weapon should then be given a short time period (shorter than that of ranged heavy attacks) to deal more heavy damage after a heavy attack. 

Why? 

This will create reason to choose one over the other, by making it based on the situation you are in. The melee heavy attack would only have enough time to deal with whatever is close enough to it so it would be best used on grouped enemies, the ranged heavy attack would have time to deal with things that are spreadout since you more time to use it and you dont have to close a gap.

A group of infested enemies that are grouped up, melee! corpus enemies spread out and flying everywhere, ranged!

Also, if this changed were implemented, it would probably be best to call it empower instead of heavy attack since the buffs last after cast lol

10 hours ago, keikogi said:

Devil Trigger

As for the devil trigger, what if it was a bar that fills up at a steady pace, and you can increase the pace by increasing the speed at which you kill enemies. It would work like the stealth combo multiplier except you will have much less time to chain kills. That way when you make the choice to empower, making the right choice at the right time should insanely increase the rate of the bar filling. 

So players who want to only use range will benefit, melee will benefit, and players that want to use both can greatly benefit from it

What do you think? 

Edited by (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII
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My personal opinion, although no one asked for it, is that interfering with the free will of other players, especially in this particular subject, is never a good thing.

Because of a moron that woke up, smoked a few joints with dubious product (they're all dubious AND hazardous anyway), came to the forum and suggested dual wielding (secondary + Melee) and we ended up having a rushed Melee portions that could've been good but isn't because DE was already planning to implement it properly before that guy came out of his closet to suggest it. What did we get? Dual Wielding with throwing Melee weapons.

... Like, seriously...?

I mean, its actually enjoyable to defend incoming fire with a Glaive while using a Secondary pistol, for example... But to throw it? I kind of kill enemies with a pistol faster than the time it takes to throw the Glaive and detonate it... And when I do decide to actively use the Glaive for more than just detonating it, I holster my pistol and properly equip it for full manual control...

... This feels like it'll end with the same 2 results:

  1. I'm only seeing this being used properly when Dual Wielding with a throwing Melee weapon...
  2. The topic getting locked like his previous topic about this subject due to toxicity
    • For reference, in case you guys are interested:

 

... I'm sorry, but interfering with the free will of other players, especially in this particular subject, is never a good thing. If something needs to be done about it, let DE reach to that conclusion themselves and plan whatever needs to planned, and do whatever needs to be done properly so that whatever comes out is also properly implemented.

Its not a matter of lacking a refined idea. No, he refined his idea, he planned numbers to back up his idea (as absurd as they may seem to be and/or probably are), but his idea shows that it directly interferes with a player's free will by "convincing" players that "Fighting Method A" have to be used because it adds gimmicks...

... Oh, and that 100% Melee attack speed bonus? Yeah, that's just your frustration talking due to having to sacrifice damage for speed. Just use a Riven and be done with it.

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18 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

My personal opinion, although no one asked for it, is that interfering with the free will of other players, especially in this particular subject, is never a good thing.

Because of a moron that woke up, smoked a few joints with dubious product (they're all dubious AND hazardous anyway), came to the forum and suggested dual wielding (secondary + Melee) and we ended up having a rushed Melee portions that could've been good but isn't because DE was already planning to implement it properly before that guy came out of his closet to suggest it. What did we get? Dual Wielding with throwing Melee weapons.

... Like, seriously...?

I mean, its actually enjoyable to defend incoming fire with a Glaive while using a Secondary pistol, for example... But to throw it? I kind of kill enemies with a pistol faster than the time it takes to throw the Glaive and detonate it... And when I do decide to actively use the Glaive for more than just detonating it, I holster my pistol and properly equip it for full manual control...

... This feels like it'll end with the same 2 results:

  1. I'm only seeing this being used properly when Dual Wielding with a throwing Melee weapon...
  2. The topic getting locked like his previous topic about this subject due to toxicity
    •  

 

18 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I'm sorry, but interfering with the free will of other players, especially in this particular subject, is never a good thing. If something needs to be done about it, let DE reach to that conclusion themselves and plan whatever needs to planned, and do whatever needs to be done properly so that whatever comes out is also properly implemented.

Its not a matter of lacking a refined idea. No, he refined his idea, he planned numbers to back up his idea (as absurd as they may seem to be and/or probably are), but his idea shows that it directly interferes with a player's free will by "convincing" players that "Fighting Method A" have to be used because it adds gimmicks...

... Oh, and that 100% Melee attack speed bonus? Yeah, that's just your frustration talking due to having to sacrifice damage for speed. Just use a Riven and be done with it.

On the topic off free will , what are both combo system the currently exist on the game that´s not a gimmick that enforces a play style for optmal damage output. Both off the ones the currently exist reward a linear play style and self hampering ( in the case off snipers forcing maximum zoom for opmal damage ouptut). Mine at least has the decency off trying to reward people from swaping from headshoting too meleeing and vice verse instead off sticking to one for the whole mission. 

Also , people reaction to an idea does not prove the idea is wrong or right. 

Edited by keikogi
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2 hours ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

I also see where this is coming from. 

I think theres a way to make ranged weapons be able to compete with melee, and give them different reasons to be used.

 

To start, maybe the combo counter should just count for both weapons. So if i hit max combo count with only ranged attacks, both my melee and my ranged weapons benefit from it equally.

This way, after you finish meleeing something, you can shoot another enemy while youre closing the gap to keep your combo counter up

Next, add a "heavy attack" function to ranged weapons. Their version could be done by holding the reload button and for the attack it could create a limited number of special bullets for a a fixed amount of time. These bullets will fire whenever you fire your weapon at a seperate fire rate of 1 per second (basically imagine firing two weapons with seperate fire rates, except them being fused into one). The damage from these projectiles should add up to around 50-75% of what a heavy attack from a melee weapon. 

The melee weapon should then be given a short time period (shorter than that of ranged heavy attacks) to deal more heavy damage after a heavy attack. 

Why? 

This will create reason to choose one over the other, by making it based on the situation you are in. The melee heavy attack would only have enough time to deal with whatever is close enough to it so it would be best used on grouped enemies, the ranged heavy attack would have time to deal with things that are spreadout since you more time to use it and you dont have to close a gap.

A group of infested enemies that are grouped up, melee! corpus enemies spread out and flying everywhere, ranged!

Also, if this changed were implemented, it would probably be best to call it empower instead of heavy attack since the buffs last after cast lol

I think for the sake off simplicity making just one combo counter for both is the way to but I have to  rework from the ground up the entire think. There a point to using a ranged weapon while melee even if it has just status mods because it would build up combo ( on a range your melee could not) and set up status, on the other hand melee does nothing to set the next ranged assalt, so ranged weapon keep receiving the short end off the stick. 

Giving melee weapons a property the help ranged weapons has beem surprinly hard. Most of the stuff that would help is so exoteric that only makes sense as mod or passive for a warframe. So at the end off the day the system would just buff melee slitily ( with is kinda bad given that melee alrady outclasses ranged ) and buff weapons a lot ( a whole new damage mutipier ) , however the core issues off the game pushing you towards expecialization to the core way it´s numbers work ( just thowing as many mutiplierson the same weapon as you possible can).

Maybe the whole ranged cannot benefit from melee should be just bandaid with ridiculouly powerfull utilility mods with negative damage as trade back so people that have a mainly ranged play style can use their melee weapon as a 5th skill. I think I will go in that direction on my next attemp because I don´t think it´s possivel to adress the core way the game threats buff stacking and anny atemp to change this will just change the equibrium level and add hoops. 

On the topic off hold r to use the especial bullets , well sound like a better idea to prevent acidental use but I think just giving weapons a "chanelling" damage and aoe stat would be easyer. 

About the whole heavy attack to set up brust window , not going to happen , spam melee has been a thing ever since berserker is mod and it not going away. 

On the toppic off the devil trigger if Im going to make ranged weapons benefit from combo they should benefit from the devil trigger as well becasue well one off the reasons we are in this mess is melee has combo and ranged weapond don´t have one. 

 

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... It struck a nerve, didn't it?

38 minutes ago, keikogi said:

what are both combo system the currently exist on the game that´s not a gimmick that enforces a play style for optmal damage output.

They are role enforcements... Just like your idea enforces Dual Wielding with Throwing Melee Weapons, because I can't see it giving higher benefit anywhere else.

38 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Both off the ones the currently exist reward a linear play style and self hampering ( in the case off snipers forcing maximum zoom for opmal damage ouptut).

Its a consequence of Role Enforcement combo... Just like the numbers you've presented in your idea which, do note, enforces a specific play style.

38 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Mine at least has the decency off trying to reward people from swaping from headshoting too meleeing and vice verse instead off sticking to one for the whole mission. 

^ This ^ is the consequence of Role Enforcement of your idea which, do note, enforces Dual Wielding with Throwing Melee Weapons, because I can't see it giving higher benefit anywhere else.

38 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Also , people reaction to an idea does not prove the idea is wrong or right. 

You're right, but I've never said it was either. What I said was:

55 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I'm sorry, but interfering with the free will of other players, especially in this particular subject, is never a good thing. If something needs to be done about it, let DE reach to that conclusion themselves and plan whatever needs to planned, and do whatever needs to be done properly so that whatever comes out is also properly implemented.

Its not a matter of lacking a refined idea. No, he refined his idea, he planned numbers to back up his idea (as absurd as they may seem to be and/or probably are), but his idea shows that it directly interferes with a player's free will by "convincing" players that "Fighting Method A" have to be used because it adds gimmicks...

 

You had an idea. People bashed you in the head for having that idea... You picked the same idea, REFINED IT, presented values to support your idea and, do note, I appreciate your effort by doing so... But it still interferes with that "free will" part as much as any other Role Enforcement gimmick, so rewarding for linear play style and self-hampering, that you've pointed out before.

And before you point out that yours doesn't reward any linear play style and doesn't cause self-hampering, remember that you're evaluating by your standards and not by the standards of everyone else. Because, many players are not going to sacrifice their play style to include your Role Enforcement gimmick into their play styles. I, however, cannot see it giving any real benefit other than Dual Wielding with Throwing Melee Weapons on top of it.

And before you include me into that bunch, which is true as I avoid Role Enforcement gimmicks whenever possible because they interfere with my free will (Hey look~), I also said:

55 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

If something needs to be done about it, let DE reach to that conclusion themselves and plan whatever needs to planned, and do whatever needs to be done properly so that whatever comes out is also properly implemented.

... So...

55 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

If something needs to be done about it, let DE reach to that conclusion themselves and plan whatever needs to planned, and do whatever needs to be done properly so that whatever comes out is also properly implemented.

 

... I can see something like this happening if more Melee weapons are added to Dual Wielding though...

 

I'm doing my best not to make this toxic, that's why I'm being really considerate with my wording and thinking before posting, but~ since I haven't said anything with hidden secondary reasons, well... I don't know what to tell you.

Edited by Uhkretor
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12 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

ey are role enforcements... Just like your idea enforces Dual Wielding with Throwing Melee Weapons, because I can't see it giving higher benefit anywhere else.

Not really there is no weapon switch time between melee and ranged weapons, in fact the changes pretty much promote high range , high hit count weapons.  If you are mainly using a gun the best weapon to combo it with would be a whip because it can stack hits fast and use and abuse the mod that steals ammo. 

15 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Its a consequence of Role Enforcement combo... Just like the numbers you've presented in your idea which, do note, enforces a specific play style.

The highest dps play style is effectively enforced by the enemy scaling. Its matter off discussing if there skill , flavour , grind or "fun"  to justify it being as is. If you think it is fine as it is then there no argument that can change the opnion on either side because I think the current structure pushes people towards forgeting 1 half off the lodout. 

19 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

You're right, but I've never said it was either. What I said was:

Briging up a closed topic inplies it. 

 

20 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

You had an idea. People bashed you in the head for having that idea... You picked the same idea, REFINED IT, presented values to support your idea and, do note, I appreciate your effort by doing so... But it still interferes with that "free will" part as much as any other Role Enforcement gimmick, so rewarding for linear play style and self-hampering, that you've pointed out before.

I'm using the same structure that the devs already use for play style enforciment. Snipers do maxium damage on maximum zoom to enforce people staying away from enemeis , melee combo counter either enforces a spam play style if you are going to for the bloodrush and weeping wounds package and enforces spaming charge attacks if you go for the charge attack packcage. How my idea is fundamentaly diferent from the systems already in game ? 

24 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

And before you point out that yours doesn't reward any linear play style and doesn't cause self-hampering, remember that you're evaluating by your standards and not by the standards of everyone else. Because, many players are not going to sacrifice their play style to include your Role Enforcement gimmick into their play styles. I, however, cannot see it giving any real benefit other than Dual Wielding with Throwing Melee Weapons on top of it.

It literally changes nothing if you mainly use a ranged weapon and I do note that the current combo packcage would rig it so it work as is.

12 hours ago, keikogi said:

Melee combo mods will be reworked to allow you to build up the ranged weapon combo while using a melee weapon. The weeping wounds / bood rush will scale out of the ranged weapon combo.

 

27 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... It struck a nerve, didn't it?

 

28 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

I'm doing my best not to make this toxic, that's why I'm being really considerate with my wording and thinking before posting, but~ since I haven't said anything with hidden secondary reasons, well... I don't know what to tell you.

Not trying to be toxic ? Why are start your reply with effectively " u mad bro ?". 

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8 hours ago, Raso719 said:

I'd like to go into a mid to high level mission with only a properly modded Primary or Secondary and be as effective as if I had gone into a mission with only a melee weapon with a mediocre mod setup. No status priming one way or the other... just effective weapons across the board. Not all weapons need to be top tear, but all weapons should at least be on par with other weapons of similar MR or investment. 

I don´t think it can ever be balanced due to the whole melee weapons must have higher dps to justify their existence and the time to gap close makes a lower and lower portion off the time needed to kill the higher the levels go. However I do think they should be buffed(base line) and also benefit from combo mechanics , as it is Im thinking off allowing them to generate combo on hit and spent combo by holding R to load the gun with "void rounds ". To make it so the melee weapon is not uselees for ranged weapons users maybe adding a new series off powerfull utility mods to turn a sword into a "magic wand" ( utility stick ) 

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18 hours ago, keikogi said:

-snip-

Very interesting concept. Sadly, it is not achievable in this form. Reasons:

  1. Requires excessive rework of the entire combat mechanic. DE will never put this much effort in any rework.
  2. Warframe in its current form is not well suited for this playstyle to be the cornerstone of combat.
  3. You already experienced the flood of infantile "free choice" complaints.

You would achieve more general acceptance if this playstyle could be realized via new mods for guns & melee.

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46 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

interesting concept. Sadly, it is not achievable in this form. Reasons:

  1. Requires excessive rework of the entire combat mechanic. DE will never put this much effort in any rework.
  2. Warframe in its current form is not well suited for this playstyle to be the cornerstone of combat.
  3. You already experienced the flood of infantile "free choice" complaints.

You would achieve more general acceptance if this playstyle could be realized via new mods for guns & melee.

Already noticed some fundamental flaws on the idea and planning a new iteration that has a simpler foundation and relies more on mods to do some off the heavy lifting as far desing is concerned. Going to scale it back to guns also build up combo ( no longer there are 2 diferent combo counts, it just melee hits generate combo,  ranged hits generate combo and that's it ) ,  hold r uses combo to load your weapon with void rounds ( high damage , inate aoe , some classes off weapons could enjoy unique propertieslike inate armor piercing or bouncingshots intead of explosion). Head shots generate 2 tmes combo. It just bring combo to ranged weapons making the playing field more fair. 

Them I will add the "magic wand " series off melee mods , sacrifice damage for utility. So ranged play styles can benefit from using weapons. Somerhing like executors blade - reduces weapons damage by 50% , executes enemies on hit if they are below 50% hp. Disarming whip ( whip only ) - disarms enemy on hit. Riot shield ( sword and shields ) - gives frontal dr ND replaces quick melee with shield bash. Select sharpening Blade ( nikana) - gains % damage while holdetered , looses % damage on hit ( so it has remarkable brust but bad dps ). Wind edge - massive range increase , reduced damage.  

Edited by keikogi
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36 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Them I will add the "magic wand " series off melee mods , sacrifice damage for utility. So ranged play styles can benefit from using weapons. Somerhing like executors blade - reduces weapons damage by 50% , executes enemies on hit if they are below 50% hp. Disarming whip ( whip only ) - disarms enemy on hit. Riot shield ( sword and shields ) - gives frontal dr ND replaces quick melee with shield bash. Select sharpening Blade ( nikana) - gains % damage while holdetered , looses % damage on hit ( so it has remarkable brust but bad dps ). Wind edge - massive range increase , reduced damage.  

Those sound really good.

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I'm not keen on this interdepency-between-firearms-and melee idea in general. I'd thought about it myself, and discarded it for a bunch of reasons.

I also have some issues with the particular implementation you're proposing.

19 hours ago, keikogi said:

a smg would have a 10% combo chance so it does not build a combo to fast and a bow would have 1500% combo chance

Going by weapon class alone is not good enough. By the mechanics you've descibed, an automatic weapon with a moderate fire rate, small magazine and long reload time would build combo slower than a gun with a large magazine, high fire rate and fast reload. As guns they might be equal-tier, due to different status chance, crit stats, and damage. But with your proposed mechanic, the former would be deprecated because using it inherantly gimps your melee effectiveness.

19 hours ago, keikogi said:

On next reload

How would this interact with reload-while-holstered Mods? I normally have two Synth Mods on my Sentinel, and sometimes Synth Reflex in my Exilus.

Also, this mechanic deprecates firearms with a slow reload, as gaining the bonus would be less convenient. I don't think that's good either.

A better version would be for firearms to benefit immediately from Combo built by melee.

21 hours ago, keikogi said:

combo generated by the melee weapon will be consumed to empower the shots [...] Empowered shots blow up on impact dealing AOE damage

And no to AoE!!!

If I want AoE I'll bring my Acceltra, thanks. Or my Scourge. Or [redacted for brevity].

If I bring something without AoE, it's because I want to have to hit things to hurt them.

Under your proposal, I'd get AoE whether I want it or not -- unless I refrained from striking things with my melee. No!

7 hours ago, keikogi said:

Snipers do maxium damage on maximum zoom to enforce people staying away from enemeis , melee combo counter either enforces a spam play style if you are going to for the bloodrush and weeping wounds package and enforces spaming charge attacks if you go for the charge attack packcage. How my idea is fundamentaly diferent from the systems already in game ? 

To use a Sniper Rifle is the player's choice, and it affects nothing else in their loadout if they use one or not. Your proposal is different because it affects the effectiveness of all  firearms, in all situations.

As for the existing melee Combo Counter, it has never enforced any playstyle. Enabled? yes. Promoted? Somewhat.

The Combo Counter means nothing to me unless I opt in to using it, e.g. by slotting Blood Rush.

My default builds don't use Combo Mods because I don't melee continually -- thus I want my melee to do reliable damage from the first hit. By the time I've started building Combo, I'm back to shooting things. By the time I'm done shooting, the Combo's dropped again. Which means Heavy Attacks aren't really worth it either.

That's right -- I already prefer the playstyle you're trying to enforce... and even I don't like your proposal.

Why not?

Well for one, because if I'm using a weapon and it's feeling good, I want to keep right on using that weapon.

Pulled out my Twin Rogga the week before last, hadn't used 'em in months. Bam, Bam! Bam, bam! Bam, bam! Awesome fun. Was shooting things I'd normally have melee'd, 'cos I was loving the pistols. Would have been really irritating to have to switch to my melee to keep my damage up.

And for another thing, when I choose a mission I pick weapons which have appropriate damage output for the experince I'm after. I don't want every mission to be a walkover.

Under your proposal I could start out with weapons which have reasonable TtK, then after a minute I'd be one-shotting even the heavies thinking "these mooks are pathetic". Or I could start with crappy damage output and have to work up to a reasonable TtK... and then if I stopped killing things briefly for any reason (like to do a Spy Vault, or some fishing on the Plains), I'd be back to having gimped weapons.

I want reliable damage output. I don't want to be distracted from the fun of combat continually checking if I've been shooting/meleeing too much or not enough. 

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2 hours ago, keikogi said:

Disarming whip ( whip only ) -

Yo that lowkeys sound very fun and makes since lol

2 hours ago, keikogi said:

Somerhing like executors blade -

Im all for executions but i wouldnt want to take too much away from garuda, maybe make it use combo count to scale? Like at 1 combo count an can execute 5% health and at 10-12 it hits 50%

I feel like this would suit the heavy swords class because they include axes and axes are usually known for executions through beheading and such

2 hours ago, keikogi said:

( nikana) - gains % damage while holdetered , looses % damage on hit ( so it has remarkable brust but bad dps )

Also sounds amazing, to those who dont use melee much this would make nikanas suit them very well 

Love these ideas right here! They invite more playstyle choices that would make combat more entertaining and interesting, i just love it

Edited by (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII
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18 hours ago, keikogi said:

melee weapons need to have higher dps to justify their existence

Have to say, I'm not convinced of this.

Melee weapons can hit multiple targets in one strike, so it seems reasonable for their baseline single-target TtK to be equal if not slightly longer than an equal-tier firearm.

Spaced-out enemies? Shoot 'em up. Grouped-up enemies? Chop 'em down.

And moves like slide-attacks and ground-slams deal increased damage over straight melee swings as well.

Also -- no ammo required. Okay, that's more an issue in the early game I think, but still a plus for melee.

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10 hours ago, keikogi said:

melee weapons must have higher dps to justify their existence

I don't agree with this. Currently, ranged weapons are in a similar position and need boosted damage to justify their existence. If equally(ish) effective people can use whatever weapon they want whenever. 

I think single shot weapons need boosted damage. Period. Boosted crit and status are also good options, but as it stands they need at least a base damage increase more than 4 times what they currently have. Automatic weapons need to have their reload speeds reduced, critical and/or status chances increased and their damage boosted by at least double what it is now. Shotguns need their falloff significantly reduced, damage buffed by at least as much as single shot rifles their pellet counts increased. 

Innate punchthrough on all weapons is another good place to start. Can't tell you how frustrating it is shooting a dead Grineer for half a clip while waiting for him to finish falling over so I can shoot the guy behind him.

 

As for scaling..... I don't like the idea of a combo system for weapons. My problem with a combo system is that you have to be effectively useless for a period of time while you build the combo counter up and that's no fun. I'm not sure how to handle this, though. Maybe a mechanic where the barrel heats up over time and deals more damage as it heats? IDK...

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8 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

not keen on this interdepency-between-firearms-and melee idea in general. I'd thought about it myself, and discarded it for a bunch of reasons.

I've already realized trying to split the dps off the player evenly between ranged and melee weapons is a fools errand. The core off the game leads to expecialization ( the very desing off a lot off warframes leads itself to style o engagement and the nature off compounding mutipliers favoring expecialization).

There is a section explaining why I realized my own proposal won't achieve what it is meant to and the baseline I'm going to work on for my next shot at it.

8 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Going by weapon class alone is not good enough. By the mechanics you've descibed, an automatic weapon with a moderate fire rate, small magazine and long reload time would build combo slower than a gun with a large magazine, high fire rate and fast reload. As guns they might be equal-tier, due to different status chance, crit stats, and damage. But with your proposed mechanic, the former would be deprecated because using it inherantly gimps your melee effectiveness.

The weapon class itself is meaningless , the only think that matters is how reliable you can head shot , fire rate and the combo chance stat. The combo rate the weapon will build is fire rate x Multshot x combo count x percent of head shot . This equation has no inherent bias , if you want a low roof weapon to generate a lot of combo you can just crank up the combo chance stat on the weapon , if you want a high rof weapon to generate a lot of combo a average or low combo chance will do the trick.

8 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

How would this interact with reload-while-holstered Mods? I normally have two Synth Mods on my Sentinel, and sometimes Synth Reflex in my Exilus.

Also, this mechanic deprecates firearms with a slow reload, as gaining the bonus would be less convenient. I don't think that's good either.

A better version would be for firearms to benefit immediately from Combo built by melee.

Swaping it to hold r to activate the bonus. 

8 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

And no to AoE!!!

If I want AoE I'll bring my Acceltra, thanks. Or my Scourge. Or [redacted for brevity].

If I bring something without AoE, it's because I want to have to hit things to hurt them.

Under your proposal, I'd get AoE whether I want it or not -- unless I refrained from striking things with my melee. No!

I'm re-design it to add a ranged weapon stance to dictate what the special bullets will do. If you have no "stance " equipped they will just do more damage , if you have a stance equipped they would provide armor piercing round , explosive rounds , bouncing round , vampire rounds, auto seeking rounds  and so on. Idk how I will implement it ( make the "stances " only available to determinate weapons types ( for example bouncing shots would be useless on a launcher ) 

8 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

default builds don't use Combo Mods because I don't melee continually -- thus I want my melee to do reliable damage from the first hit. By the time I've started building Combo, I'm back to shooting things. By the time I'm done shooting, the Combo's dropped again. Which means Heavy Attacks aren't really worth it either.

Heavy attacks are no longer affected by combo count and they were just given inate armor pierce. Combo would be used to fuel to the system proposed like 2 years ago off something akin to the devil digger from dmc. 

Furthermore much like the current combo , the one created by me has the same property off if you don't like don't use it. It effectually does not change the functionality off the current combon site system because weeping wounds and blade rush allow you to use your Melee to build up the ranged count to support sword alone. 

However all off that is irrelevant because I'm already reworking the system from the ground up to not change melee weapons at all , just add combo and stances to ranged weapons and add a few new mods to melee that support a mainly ranged play style. I already gave a few examples on the comment like sharpening sheet (

nikana ) - while the blade is holsters,  increase melee damage,  each strike reduces melee damage. Or utility stuff like riot shield ( sword and shield ), frontal Dr while using a secondary weapon. Disarming strike( whip ) - disarms nemesis on hit. Executioner blade - (- 50% damage ) , executes enemies bellow 50% hp on hit.

7 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Have to say, I'm not convinced of this.

Melee weapons can hit multiple targets in one strike, so it seems reasonable for their baseline single-target TtK to be equal if not slightly longer than an equal-tier firearm.

Spaced-out enemies? Shoot 'em up. Grouped-up enemies? Chop 'em down.

And moves like slide-attacks and ground-slams deal increased damage over straight melee swings as well.

Also -- no ammo required. Okay, that's more an issue in the early game I think, but still a plus for melee.

The ammo issue mostly goes away at higher levels when you can afford to use a exilus slot.

The problem come dows to time to gap is a fixed ammount but the ttk increases with level. But trying to balance the melee dps off a full build vs rhe ranged dps off full build is stupid because the warframe you are using can screw rhe balance I one direction. I'm moving towards just creating mods to allow you to use your melee weapon as 5 th skill instead off another damage source. Sounds like a more reasonable solution at this point

 

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9 hours ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

that lowkeys sound very fun and makes since lol

Yep and the wind blade mod would support it even further.

9 hours ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

all for executions but i wouldnt want to take too much away from garuda, maybe make it use combo count to scale? Like at 1 combo count an can execute 5% health and at 10-12 it hits 50%

I feel like this would suit the heavy swords class because they include axes and axes are usually known for executions through beheading and such

I will think about it latter when I coms around to resist thia with stances for ranged weapon ( diferent types off void rounds ) 

9 hours ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Also sounds amazing, to those who dont use melee much this would make nikanas suit them very well 

Its also support the whole joke about the blade folded a thousands time , it's being Shepherd while on the sheet and goes dull after strikes

9 hours ago, (PSN)IIFrost_GhostII said:

these ideas right here! They invite more playstyle choices that would make combat more entertaining and interesting, i just love it

I'm trying to make 1 mod for each weapon melee weapon category,  it will take a while until a finish it.

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20 hours ago, Raso719 said:

I don't agree with this. Currently, ranged weapons are in a similar position and need boosted damage to justify their existence. If equally(ish) effective people can use whatever weapon they want whenever. 

I think single shot weapons need boosted damage. Period. Boosted crit and status are also good options, but as it stands they need at least a base damage increase more than 4 times what they currently have. Automatic weapons need to have their reload speeds reduced, critical and/or status chances increased and their damage boosted by at least double what it is now. Shotguns need their falloff significantly reduced, damage buffed by at least as much as single shot rifles their pellet counts increased. 

Innate punchthrough on all weapons is another good place to start. Can't tell you how frustrating it is shooting a dead Grineer for half a clip while waiting for him to finish falling over so I can shoot the guy behind him.

 

As for scaling..... I don't like the idea of a combo system for weapons. My problem with a combo system is that you have to be effectively useless for a period of time while you build the combo counter up and that's no fun. I'm not sure how to handle this, though. Maybe a mechanic where the barrel heats up over time and deals more damage as it heats? IDK...

Did you know that you move your character and stop shooting for half a second to go around that dead body?

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On 2021-02-17 at 12:07 PM, Raso719 said:

I don't agree with this. Currently, ranged weapons are in a similar position and need boosted damage to justify their existence. If equally(ish) effective people can use whatever weapon they want whenever. 

The equation can be broken on both sides , as it is right now ranged weapon only outclass melee weapons iff they hit mupile enemies at the same tyme ( the new cernons , amprex , red coolaid nukor ) because melee is so much stronger than ranged weapons 

On 2021-02-17 at 12:07 PM, Raso719 said:

I think single shot weapons need boosted damage. Period. Boosted crit and status are also good options, but as it stands they need at least a base damage increase more than 4 times what they currently have. Automatic weapons need to have their reload speeds reduced, critical and/or status chances increased and their damage boosted by at least double what it is now. Shotguns need their falloff significantly reduced, damage buffed by at least as much as single shot rifles their pellet counts increased. 

I think they just need a massive base incrase , melee 3.0 gave like 3 to 4 times damage boosts to melee weapons to the point that even most melee exalted weapons were overshawed by their normal conterpart 

On 2021-02-17 at 12:07 PM, Raso719 said:

Innate punchthrough on all weapons is another good place to start. Can't tell you how frustrating it is shooting a dead Grineer for half a clip while waiting for him to finish falling over so I can shoot the guy behind him.

I don´t think the punch trought this is necessary , i think bullets should just pass trought entities they are not damaging ( meaning they pass trought allies and dead enemeis ) 

On 2021-02-17 at 12:07 PM, Raso719 said:

As for scaling..... I don't like the idea of a combo system for weapons. My problem with a combo system is that you have to be effectively useless for a period of time while you build the combo counter up and that's no fun. I'm not sure how to handle this, though. Maybe a mechanic where the barrel heats up over time and deals more damage as it heats? IDK...

Barrel heats up is not doing so hot on the soma ( similar mechanic ) , I think using combo to create a expecial issue mag to push trought a problem. As it is right now I´m thinking on giving a "stance" mod for ranged weapons that would dictate how these bulltets work. For example the expecial mag could have inate armor pierce , explosive shots , vampiric rounds , bouncing rounds, high wield rounds ( increse damage and speed ) and so on.  I think using combo to ramp up damage is acutalluy bad, I prefer if the combo was used to push trought a obstacle. As it is i thinking on activating this by holding r and loading these unique buleets skipinmg the reload aniamtion 

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