Is Warframe Fundamentally Flawed for Endgame Content?

[ReddyDisco]

Fashion frame seems fine to me, not flawed at all

[Zimzala]

3 hours ago, mega_lova_nia said:

But if it's truly a fundamental flaw, then what's the point of whining and complaining about endgame if there is no endgame like other MMORPGS? Instead, we should just appreciate the existence of this game itself, enjoy the little things and updates the devs gave us and just have fun for once. Because the only way that to save this game is a change in fundamentals, which means changing the game's concept completely.

Bold mine. 

"There's your problem", as it were.

It's not an MMO, it's not an MMORPG.

It's not designed like one, it's not intended to be one.

There are players trying oh so hard to treat it like one and make others think it is/should be like one, but it's not one.

The solution to your issue is actually simple, you just have to realize no game can entertain everyone forever and that at some point WF offers no more Entertainment.

When you have beaten the game, go find another, or make up your own fun, same as most GaaS games.

The Eldergame is what you make it, just like in all other GaaS games.

As DE will tell you when you say there is no challenge left "congrats, you beat WF".

IMO, this entire idea is based on something WF simply isn't, is not intended to be, while players have decided they want it to be something it is not.

[EtherPigeon]

Warframe is probably best compared to ARPGs like Diablo, Torchlight and Path of Exile.

The big difference all these and Warframe (and their approach to endgame content) is two-fold:

• ARPGs rely heavily on randomised weapon/equipment stats, The closest thing to randomised stats in WF are Rivens and Valence fusion equipment. The latter is quite forgiving but the latter has spawned its own economy.
• ARPGs have almost infinitely scaling NG+ modes where you replay the campaign over and over again with higher difficulty. The closest thing Warframe has are ESO, endurance runs of endless missions and Steel Path

The problem is that Warframe is much more reliant on coop gameplay than ARPGs, so "stealing" these solutions would quickly lead to a separation of the playerbase between those who could participate in Steel Titanium Unobtanium Path and those who can't - with the latter grinding "better" rivens there to go deeper into that mode.

With a thinned out playerbase, random multiplayer missions would be a lot less fun, so they would need to use another ARPG mechanism to keep the player groups "together" for coop: seasons.

And Warframe is very much set-up as collect-a-thon, having seasons invalidate your past progress would be extremely alienating to existing players.

Maybe there's a path forward to bridge these gaps: dynamic scaling, "mini" season content like events etc. - but none of these are easy to do right and often require ongoing work, meaning we're back in the current mode: waiting for new content drops.

[Zimzala]

2 minutes ago, EtherPigeon said:

The problem is that Warframe is much more reliant on coop gameplay than ARPGs, so "stealing" these solutions would quickly lead to a separation of the playerbase between those who could participate in Steel Titanium Unobtanium Path and those who can't - with the latter grinding "better" rivens there to go deeper into that mode.

I don't think the game itself is more reliant on Co-Op, I think the players are more reliant on Co-Op due to an overworked desire to get rewards as fast as possible.

The game is pretty much a Solo game with optional Co-Op from my POV, always has been.

I get that Extroverts like to play games with other people and that WF has that option, but it's still just an option.

If one thinks a game 'revolves' around having others to play the game with, then I can certainly understand that when there are fewer players available, one might like a game less, but there is nothing inherent in WF that requires teaming, other than getting rewards faster, IME.

IMO, this is a player driven issue. Some players are really Extroverted and really, really prefer games that have gobs of available PuG members at the drop of a hat. that does not mean WF is reliant on that, it just means some number of players are, and to me that's a big difference.

If you actually needed a team to complete most of the content, it would be a different thing, but we don't.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Warframe cannot have endgame content with the non stop power creep. DE can do it, but they don't have the guts to anger the big and vocal challenge phobia casual crowd. The only way to balance this game is to tear it all down and go back to the drawing board. But most players are not gonna happy when that happens.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. As soon as you change the status quo, the pitch forks and torches come out, just look at what happens when reworks are announced to ANYTHING. 

But I think there's some things that they can still give players that can have that end game feel to it and that my friends is the return of Raids.

But even then if DE was to implement a form of Endgame, your still going to see parts of the community extremely unhappy.

I've honestly come to the conclusion that most veterans are only happy when they have something to complain about....and then continue to play the game or threaten to leave, to only come back a few months later. 

 

 

[Limborghini]

Endurance is endgame. T4 Missions were endgame. You used one key and got unlimited rewards, IF you were strong enough.

Raids were also hard.

They could have bumped up t4 m,ission levels or made t5 missions with higher level enemies, but they...

...removed all of it and replaced it with a system that gives you maximum rewards at 5 mins.

So there is no rewarding way to test the limits anymore. All that umbral forma is just a fancy decoration.

T4 missions were starting at too low level, but at least you got to see the limits of you build about 1h in... Now that simply does not happen.

[EtherPigeon]

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

IMO, this is a player driven issue. Some players are really Extroverted and really, really prefer games that have gobs of available PuG members at the drop of a hat. that does not mean WF is reliant on that, it just means some number of players are, and to me that's a big difference.

While I agree that WF is mostly fine in Solo or a small group of friends (and that's how I play most of it outside of fissures), this view doesn't quite jive with DE's push to make PUGs and the community a "thing":

Spawn rates on solo can be problematic, RJ didn't get the command intrinsic until a year after its release, clans are integral to the game's equipment acquisition (and yes, solo clans are a thing, but clearly not the intent), the relays and world hubs are pushing you towards bumping into other players and so forth.

Saying it's solely a player-driven direction ignores a lot of design and intent by the game's developers - and I suspect that they see higher retention rates from players that engage with other players or the community than "mostly-Solo" players.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

2 hours ago, EtherPigeon said:

 

Maybe there's a path forward to bridge these gaps: dynamic scaling, "mini" season content like events etc. - but none of these are easy to do right and often require ongoing work, meaning we're back in the current mode: waiting for new content drops.

"Where are they coming from? Void who did this to them?"

Do I need to bring this memory back for everyone? Nightwave just needs to not last for the entire year, of if it does add more to it vs rewarding Nightwave credits past level 30. 

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, EtherPigeon said:

While I agree that WF is mostly fine in Solo or a small group of friends (and that's how I play most of it outside of fissures), this view doesn't quite jive with DE's push to make PUGs and the community a "thing":

Spawn rates on solo can be problematic, RJ didn't get the command intrinsic until a year after its release, clans are integral to the game's equipment acquisition (and yes, solo clans are a thing, but clearly not the intent), the relays and world hubs are pushing you towards bumping into other players and so forth.

Saying it's solely a player-driven direction ignores a lot of design and intent by the game's developers - and I suspect that they see higher retention rates from players that engage with other players or the community than "mostly-Solo" players.

From my POV, DE is simply promoting both styles of play with most of the things they release.

I don't think that releasing these different things "splits the player base" into smaller portions, I think these things just add more stuff to do.

That's my point, this idea of splitting the player base is an MMO/MMORPG trope IME, and is not accurate here.

[GwinKyblood]

EASY

Set a goal and make your end game

BYE

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ph4nt0m_ru]

30+ rounds of SP/Void/Arbi Disruptions - endgame. The rest is boredom.

[PublikDomain]

8 hours ago, mega_lova_nia said:

Which brings the question, is Warframe fundamentally flawed for endgame? Endgame is a phase in a game where you've basically gotten all you've wanted and now it's time to face ultimate hardships.

No, because that's not all there is to endgame. Endgame doesn't need to test your skill, it just needs to give you something to do. Warframe is fundamentally flawed for challenge-based endgame, absolutely, but there can also be endgame activities focusing on community involvement, competition with other players, or constructive content and agency over the game world. A healthy endgame would provide a number of these types of activities layered together to give you a reason to log in and play even if there isn't an update that week.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, mega_lova_nia said:

You have a game that gives you near limitless possibilities to modify your weapons and enhance their strengths to the point of absurdity. You are given frames that broke the boundaries of game balance. Other games have a cool down system that prevented the abuse of ultimate-typed abilities. Meanwhile, warframe has an energy system which is redundant because of coop synergies, not to mention how absurd some abilities are when combined together.

It's a game of power fantasies, almost to the equivalent of cheating. The only thing that's keeping us from doing so is the long grind of reaching to that point. But even so, there comes a point where grinding can be conquered with time and patience.

This game is a game where essentially everyone wins, and whenever there's a game where everyone wins, nobody is.

Which brings the question, is Warframe fundamentally flawed for endgame? Endgame is a phase in a game where you've basically gotten all you've wanted and now it's time to face ultimate hardships. But there is no ultimate hardship when the game allows you to overcome that hardship by using absurd combinations of modifications that exceeds the limit that other games usually have. This just makes every sort of endgame content redundant in just a matter of weeks. They've tried balancing things up, applying mechanics that other games used to gatekeep some powers, increasing the damage of enemies, and yet here we are, still no permanent endgame content, and the vets are still pouting no matter what like a bunch of scrooges.

If there are still hope for any sort of mechanic then DE has to take notes from other games and try to tend to this situation before the game reached its completion. But even so, this game is still young, so let's hope for the best in the future.

But if it's truly a fundamental flaw, then what's the point of whining and complaining about endgame if there is no endgame like other MMORPGS? Instead, we should just appreciate the existence of this game itself, enjoy the little things and updates the devs gave us and just have fun for once. Because the only way that to save this game is a change in fundamentals, which means changing the game's concept completely.

Flawed? No.

Endgame players attempting to force their will upon this game and, thus, create a flawed system to fix? Absolutely!

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

On 2021-04-15 at 5:19 AM, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

Only the whiny ones, I'm over here derping around and having fun.

To be fair, though, one thing I do love about Warfframe is the lack of "true endgame", because it's a thing I hated about MMORPGs I've played. I'd play what I thought was the meat of the game, only to be told that "you need X gear set to do any further content, and it has these stats". I liked having the freedom to make subpar builds and have them still work for most of the game, or builds that sound like meta builds until I post them (I'm convinced my 2/3 Umbra Mesa sounds more impressive than it is, but I don't know or care).

Warframe isn't an MMORPG, and yet people want raids and stuff in a game where, as a mate once described it, "it's not exactly co-op, it's a bunch of people playing the same mission." Which is to say, you play with people, but you don't have to work together, exactly. Raids require you to work together, and therefore, imo, don't fit into Warframe.

The potential for doing endgame is already here, it's the stuff DE is so religiously trying to purge out of the game. if you don't want to do it you can keep playing the way you want to but other players should also have something they can do.