When players discuss balance…

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I hope you’re not applying your personal idea of a power fantasy to everyone else :P. There are some who would debate it

What else can be a power fantasy? If you remove your gear how is it a power fantasy anymore? If you're removing the means to use your abilities and weapons to their utmost damage? It's a challenge yes but it's a challenge because you removed your powers.

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

What else can be a power fantasy? If you remove your gear how is it a power fantasy anymore? If you're removing the means to use your abilities and weapons to their utmost damage? It's a challenge yes but it's a challenge because you removed your powers.

The way I view it, outside the mission, yes, I had all these other options available to me. I’ll pick and choose from what I’ve accrued, and jump into the fight.

The moment I enter the fight, I’m locked in; I don’t have 1000 health, I have 75. I don’t do 1 mil damage, I do 23. Within that world, I now have to use everything at my disposal to make it through, and sometimes I don’t make it through.

When I fight well, and utilise everything that I have, and make mincemeat of the enemy while they try to mince me, I fulfill my own idea of a power fantasy

edit: Admittedly, it’s not perfect. I sort of soft-lock my operator form because it’s too powerful. But even then when I’m desperate I’ll go operator and still sometimes fail!

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

The way I view it, outside the mission, yes, I had all these other options available to me. I’ll pick and choose from what I’ve accrued, and jump into the fight.

The moment I enter the fight, I’m locked in; I don’t have 1000 health, I have 75. I don’t do 1 mil damage, I do 23. Within that world, I now have to use everything at my disposal to make it through, and sometimes I don’t make it through

Ok let's use your example, why is it harder with low health? Because you're less powerful. Why don't you do a million damage? Because you removed power from your weapons and frame. See power fantasy in this game for most players is press 4 to win abilties and beyblade melees. You remove that, it's no longer a power fantasy for them. Vice versa you add that in, the game loses its challenge.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Ok let's use your example, why is it harder with low health? Because you're less powerful. Why don't you do a million damage? Because you removed power from your weapons and frame. See power fantasy in this game for most players is press 4 to win abilties and beyblade melees. You remove that, it's no longer a power fantasy for them. Vice versa you add that in, the game loses its challenge.

Is that your powerfantasy, though?

[Soy77]

32 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I felt it was good, the reason I thought this is because it's one of the only instances in this game where 1 hit KO mechanics were done  properly ie the attack is telegraphed and 100% avoidable with correct timing. Likewise the crystals had a colour code to them that rewarded being observant. It's one of the few fights DE has gotten right in a while.

Definitely absolutely agree

The telegraphed attack is what I've been trained for in almost 30 years of gaming, i immediately feel right at home right from the first attempt.

when i die it's my fault for failing to dodge an attack that has been announced.

I used to feel bad and sorry when i die in random pubs, but nowadays I don't. I don't know if players at your level can tell what exactly kill you, but i can't -or can't yet. I just die. Aside from failing to control the mob, i rarely know why. so I don't apologize anymore.

I think of dying in warframe like an unfortunate accident that can happen to anyone, instead of just the stupid noobs -considering that everyone is generally well prepared.

==========

also, nihil fight doesn't deliberately "remove" any powers you have like nullifier zones in orphix venom. You just happen to need to kill him with the crystals.

flying frames can still fly to dodge. The jumping mods still works. And passives like wukong's can still save you.

i think we need more bosses like nihil. Keep the game as is for the power fantasy, but put some bosses like nihil here and there for that extra bit of challenge. Just a bit.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Look, @-CdG-Zilchy, I think we’re basically on the same side here (if I’ve understood the core of what you’re looking for). We both want to do our best in a fight, and have it be a challenge.

One of us wants to do it properly, and the other’s just getting it done.

There’s a reason I don’t crack open the console in Skyrim and godmode my way through. It’s not what I’m looking for, even though the option is one tilde key-press away

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Look, @-CdG-Zilchy, I think we’re basically on the same side here. We both want to do our best in a fight, and have it be a challenge.

One of us wants to do it properly, and the other’s just getting it done.

There’s a reason I don’t crack open the console in Skyrim and godmode my way through. It’s not what I’m looking for, even though the option is one tilde key-press away

Sadly players like yourself are in short supply in this player base which is why we can't have nice things...

[(NSW)Greybones]

44 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Sadly players like yourself are in short supply in this player base which is why we can't have nice things...

Well… we all make our choices (not that there’s anything wrong with that). It’s not a commonly-talked about thing that it is in fact (mostly) a choice 😕

I’m flattered that you consider me a rarity :P Honestly, I’m just glad that we didn’t devolve into name-calling and insults. Thanks for that 👍 

[ebrl]

When players discuss balance, developers shouldn't listen.

 

edit: notice that I absolutely do not want to imply that DE is any competent at balancing their game. still less bad of an option than making decisions based on what players think about balance, tho.

[Soy77]

37 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I hope you’re not applying your personal idea of a power fantasy to everyone else :P. There are some who would debate it

There'll always be people who'll debate everything in here. But i agree, stripping players of their hard earned gear is indeed artificial challenge. 

Coming from monster hunter, I don't understand why warframe players can't just be happy with speed running things, we always relies on developer-delivered contents.

In MH, we're also herculean people that wields giant swords as if they're papers and hunt down enormous dragons like they're nothing. Of course at some point everyone will be very good at hunting the dragons. So instead of asking for even harder dragons for the veterans, that'll be impossible for the rookies to hunt, we simply find entertainment in hunting the current dragons faster. Inventing more efficient ways to do it. Ot not even better, just different ways to hunt them.

The series has been going for 17 years like that.

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

There'll always be people who'll debate everything in here. But i agree, stripping players of their hard earned gear is indeed artificial challenge. 

Coming from monster hunter, I don't understand why warframe players can't just be happy with speed running things, we always relies on developer-delivered contents.

In MH, we're also herculean people that wields giant swords as if they're papers and hunt down enormous dragons like they're nothing. Of course at some point everyone will be very good at hunting the dragons. So instead of asking for even harder dragons for the veterans, that'll be impossible for the rookies to hunt, we simply find entertainment in hunting the current dragons faster. Inventing more efficient ways to do it.

The series has been going for 17 years like that.

Even then I equip leather armour and face down an (insert scary monster here because they’re all scary) if I feel like it’s getting too easy 😅. I’m there to fight monsters! Not squash lizards

[Soy77]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Even then I equip leather armour and face down an (insert scary monster here because they’re all scary) if I feel like it’s getting too easy 😅.

That's why hunters create their own challenges like speedrunning stuff. Or speedbombing. Nowadays we have clusting squads.

Never know that equipping leather armor is a thing, but I've did a couple of naked runs in my time. Also, a person who thinks that monster hunter is easy should be able to name drop a couple of monsters names. There are a couple of notorious names in the community that anyone will immediately agree with.

Unless... The one you play is monster hunter stories. That ain't MH.

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

That's why hunters create their own challenges like speedrunning stuff. Or speedbombing. Nowadays we have clusting squads.

Never know that equipping leather armor is a thing, but I've did a couple of naked runs in my time. Also, a person who thinks that monster hunter is easy should be able to name drop a couple of monsters names. There are a couple of notorious names in the community that anyone will immediately agree with.

Unless... The one you play is monster hunter stories. That ain't MH.

Er. Wasn’t expecting to be put on the spot like I’m some kind of non-gamer and that it’s a bad thing o.o.

Um…! Quropeco…? Arzuros? Jaggi?

Can’t help but feel I’ve failed 😞 I should just re-equip my best armour and slink off to squash one of the early 1-stars quests that I passed by

[Soy77]

54 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Er. Wasn’t expecting to be put on the spot like I’m some kind of non-gamer and that it’s a bad thing o.o.

Um…! Quropeco…? Arzuros? Jaggi?

Can’t help but feel I’ve failed 😞 I should just re-equip my best armour and slink off to squash one of the early 1-stars quests that I passed by

Lol sorry if i make you feel that way 🤣 second time reading my own post it was pretty harsh. But you took it like a real gent, I respect that.

It's just we have a lot of rookies who trivialized monster hunter too. Just like here, they'll be like "CAPCOM I'VE FINISHED THE GAME EZ NOW GIMME SOMETHING BIGGER AND MEANER". The real old vets will just sigh and go "yeah mate, EVERYONE have finished monster hunter. The real challenge in this game is hunting deviljho naked solo heroics+7 with a sword and shield"

The challenges are artificial. But we players artificially construct them ourselves. 

Either that, or bring your best gear possible, nakamas that you trust with your life, and try to take out alatreon as fast as you can. Regular fights took like 30-40 minutes. So when someone pushed it to 20 mins, it means they're good. Others might beat them with 10 minutes, they're really good. Until others came up with 5 minutes hunts. Last time i checked a lunatic did it in under two minutes. Which just insane for a fight that suppose to take 30-40 mins.

I was the first few speedrunners who pushed behemoth down to 10 minutes mark when he first came. Since then the time just gets lower and lower, which is amazing.

We never ran out of challenges. Cuz the challenge now is to go even faster than the guy who did it in one minute.

[sh00chu]

Saying that taking away equipment and abilities negates content being a proper challenge, and then saying the Nihil fight, where the game does exactly that, is the best boss fight in any way, is peak cognitive dissonance.

Also, calling people "crybabies" for enjoying the game in a way that is different than the way you like to play is elitist and rude. For example; I HATE speedrunning. I don't think it's fun. At all. I like to look around at stuff. After thousands of hours playing, I still run across new little details nearly every time I play. 

I think a lot of the balance issues in the game could be easily sorted by slowing us wayyyy down, and making CC important again, and nuking much less so.

Lastly, a power fantasy is, by definition, a scenario in which you roflstompwtfbbq all challengers with relative ease. Full stop. 

[Soy77]

19 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

Saying that taking away equipment and abilities negates content being a proper challenge, and then saying the Nihil fight, where the game does exactly that, is the best boss fight in any way, is peak cognitive dissonance.

Also, calling people "crybabies" for enjoying the game in a way that is different than the way you like to play is elitist and rude. For example; I HATE speedrunning. I don't think it's fun. At all. I like to look around at stuff. After thousands of hours playing, I still run across new little details nearly every time I play. 

I think a lot of the balance issues in the game could be easily sorted by slowing us wayyyy down, and making CC important again, and nuking much less so.

Lastly, a power fantasy is, by definition, a scenario in which you roflstompwtfbbq all challengers with relative ease. Full stop. 

Nihil fight doesn't "technically" strip you off our powers like nullifier zone in OV blatantly does. Read my post about how most mods and abilities still works, they just doesn't work against him.

But you're technically right, too. It still doesn't allow us fight with full strength. That's why i think the fight is a fair middle ground.

But you must understand people who do speedruns even though you hate it. You said it yourself, people should be allowed to enjoy the game the way they want it. I think it's more reason why challenges shouldn't come from developer and forced at all players. People should make their own challenges so -your words: they can enjoy a game the way they want it.

Also, slowing people down?? Are you one of those bullet jumping haters? Less nuking?!?! Well, good luck, you're making more enemies than i will ever do lol.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

35 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

Saying that taking away equipment and abilities negates content being a proper challenge, and then saying the Nihil fight, where the game does exactly that, is the best boss fight in any way, is peak cognitive dissonance.

Also, calling people "crybabies" for enjoying the game in a way that is different than the way you like to play is elitist and rude. For example; I HATE speedrunning. I don't think it's fun. At all. I like to look around at stuff. After thousands of hours playing, I still run across new little details nearly every time I play. 

I think a lot of the balance issues in the game could be easily sorted by slowing us wayyyy down, and making CC important again, and nuking much less so.

Lastly, a power fantasy is, by definition, a scenario in which you roflstompwtfbbq all challengers with relative ease. Full stop. 

Just quote me next time if you're going to directly have a go about what I say. The Nihil isn't artificial challenge because it is DESIGNED THAT WAY. The rest of the game is designed around having gear so the two are not similar.

I didn't call people crybabies for hating speed running, kindly don't twist my words. I called them crybabies for demanding all content be passable within a week of starting the game and I stand by that. Other games have progression for being able to do higher challenges, Warframe does not because people cry about it. Just look at how all new content is nerfed within a few weeks. 

[sh00chu]

2 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

Nihil fight doesn't "technically" strip you off our powers like nullifier zone in OV blatantly does. Read my post about how most mods and abilities still works, they just doesn't work against him.

Also, slowing people down?? Are you one of those bullet jumping haters? Less nuking?!?! Well, good luck, you're making more enemies than i will ever do lol.

Semantics. As there are no other actual enemies in the Nihil fight, and, as you say, powers just don't work against him, I'd say that pretty much makes gear and frame choice all but irrelevant. 

I didn't say anything at all about any of the parkour style movements. It's the speed that is the problem. Being able to nuke everything nearly instantly in all but the most infrequently played content, and being able to get from mission spawn to extraction in usually under a minute or two completely trivializes 99% of the games content.

I'm not saying I think we should be any less agile, or that, heaven forbid, they bring back the stamina mechanic, but toning down how fast we can proceed through missions and forcing us to actually engage with the content instead of either speeding past it and/or nuking it would go a long way toward bringing back a sense of being at least somewhat vulnerable. 

[Soy77]

8 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

Semantics. As there are no other actual enemies in the Nihil fight, and, as you say, powers just don't work against him, I'd say that pretty much makes gear and frame choice all but irrelevant. 

I didn't say anything at all about any of the parkour style movements. It's the speed that is the problem. Being able to nuke everything nearly instantly in all but the most infrequently played content, and being able to get from mission spawn to extraction in usually under a minute or two completely trivializes 99% of the games content.

I'm not saying I think we should be any less agile, or that, heaven forbid, they bring back the stamina mechanic, but toning down how fast we can proceed through missions and forcing us to actually engage with the content instead of either speeding past it and/or nuking it would go a long way toward bringing back a sense of being at least somewhat vulnerable. 

Semantics indeed. In both end. Your side and my side. 

"Pretty much" gear and frame choice irrelevant. Yeah, pretty much. Not entirely. Wukong still cheese death. Titania still can fly. If you choose them, your choice will be relevant.

Also as zilchy said, the nullifying of your gears is compensated handsomely with well made telegraphed attacks. If you die it's your fault not your gear's.

The whole point of my post is nihil is a fair ground between still having defensive (evasive) powers, but none of our everyday godly offensive abilities that murders every living being in the map like thanos snap.

Which in a glance, seems to support your stance: to have us not kill everything in one second.

So I might need a little help here. What's the big picture you're trying to paint? You want power fantasy to be gods, or engage with contents like nihil make us do?

[-CdG-Zilchy]

18 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

Semantics. As there are no other actual enemies in the Nihil fight, and, as you say, powers just don't work against him, I'd say that pretty much makes gear and frame choice all but irrelevant. 

I didn't say anything at all about any of the parkour style movements. It's the speed that is the problem. Being able to nuke everything nearly instantly in all but the most infrequently played content, and being able to get from mission spawn to extraction in usually under a minute or two completely trivializes 99% of the games content.

I'm not saying I think we should be any less agile, or that, heaven forbid, they bring back the stamina mechanic, but toning down how fast we can proceed through missions and forcing us to actually engage with the content instead of either speeding past it and/or nuking it would go a long way toward bringing back a sense of being at least somewhat vulnerable. 

I personally think the operator is the biggest problem, ever since that was added, staying alive has become trivial. Got hit? No worries press 5 and be immune while regaining your health. Someone got downed? No worries, press 5 and crouch and resurrect them with no chance of ever failing to do so. Need CC? No worries press 5 and void dash once with magus lockdown etc.. the list goes on.

[sh00chu]

8 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Just quote me next time if you're going to directly have a go about what I say. The Nihil isn't artificial challenge because it is DESIGNED THAT WAY. The rest of the game is designed around having gear so the two are not similar.

I didn't call people crybabies for hating speed running, kindly don't twist my words. I called them crybabies for demanding all content be passable within a week of starting the game and I stand by that. Other games have progression for being able to do higher challenges, Warframe does not because people cry about it. Just look at how all new content is nerfed within a few weeks. 

Full disclosure: I was honestly being obscenely lazy. So much so, that I couldn't be bothered to scroll up to quote you. And you clarifying WHY you said doesn't make it any less elitist or rude. 

I despised the Nihil fight. What was apparently obvious to a lot of people wasn't obvious to me, and to compound that, I am just plain bad at platforming. It only took me a few tries to beat him, but it only took me about 10 seconds into the first fight to start rage swearing. As the payoff for weeks and weeks of putting up with the horrible nightwave nausea inducing, horrible first-person detective/wiggle mouse around until something glows dumpster fire, it left me feeling pretty disgusted and disappointed.

FWIW, I think we're arguing from the same side of the point, I just think you haven't quite reached the conclusion that I have. Players need to be slowed down. Newbies are introduced to this overwhelming mountain of content. Get that FOMO, Get hooked up by well-intentioned veterans who show them the ropes. And suddenly, in a months' time, they're MR20 or so, have only ever played the game as a reskinned Sonic the Hedgehog without having actually experienced having to do it any other way. The helpfulness of the Warframe community is both a blessing and a curse in that regard. 

I've been playing since the very end of the open beta, and since then there have been a lot of improvements in the game, but in spite of all those improvements, I personally don't feel like the intersection between difficulty and power fantasy has ever been in a better place than it was way back then. And the most significant differences between then and now are the importance of crowd control, and the sheer speed that everyone FOMO's their way into doing everything, whether that be getting a taxi to Hydron (or whatever stupid node is en vogue these days) , or running sub-minute capture missions to grind for (insert whatever here) because it's the most "efficient". 

One last thing. I am 1000% pro roflstompwtfbbq. I would be ecstatic if they came out and said that they would no longer give any focus at all to making more difficult content. I would probably do a little happy dance if things like steel path just suddenly disappeared. My opinions about what I think the problems are, and how they could be fixed, are just that, opinions. They are, however, in good faith. And while they may not be the problems or solutions people want to hear, I honestly believe that what I said is at least worth consideration. Or not. 

TL;DR I'm old. Get off my lawn!

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

The premise is flawed to begin with. Warframe or any game is never going to be balanced.

 We've all played "more balanced" games so we're used to games limiting us. People can't handle all the freedom warframe gives, so they think warframe is some wounded animal that needs to be put out of its misery because we're not in forced 1 hour co-op raids, because that's the only thing that makes a game balanced and "good game design": is forcing others to have to be dependent on internet strangers. 

 

[vegetosayajin]

5 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Are they coming at it from an extremely high-level content point of view or…?

Sometimes I feel left out of the loop a little, because I’ll see players complain about some balance change or new weapon, but I’m looking at the content I tend to do (utilizing said balance change or new weapon) and am like “I don’t… really feel the issue, sorry 😐“

Yes, because as you said low level content can be done with literally anything. Search youtube for "Warframe - The Spears of Destruction" 1,2 and 3 from Triburos if you want to see how they defeat all bosses(at the time) with fishing spears just to prove a point.
With that information in mind low level content is so extremely easy at some point that there is no reason to discuss it.
Even for a new tenno I still remember the only boss that posed any kind of challenge the first time I did it was Kela De Thaym and that was with subpar gear almost no knowledge of the fight and I still did it, multiple times to farm saryn.
So yes, from the perspective of a player there is 0 point to discuss balance for low level content, they can whine: "someone does more damage then me, whaaaa" or something but a discussion? nope
 

[vegetosayajin]

double post , delete
 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

11 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

Full disclosure: I was honestly being obscenely lazy. So much so, that I couldn't be bothered to scroll up to quote you. And you clarifying WHY you said doesn't make it any less elitist or rude. 

I despised the Nihil fight. What was apparently obvious to a lot of people wasn't obvious to me, and to compound that, I am just plain bad at platforming. It only took me a few tries to beat him, but it only took me about 10 seconds into the first fight to start rage swearing. As the payoff for weeks and weeks of putting up with the horrible nightwave nausea inducing, horrible first-person detective/wiggle mouse around until something glows dumpster fire, it left me feeling pretty disgusted and disappointed.

FWIW, I think we're arguing from the same side of the point, I just think you haven't quite reached the conclusion that I have. Players need to be slowed down. Newbies are introduced to this overwhelming mountain of content. Get that FOMO, Get hooked up by well-intentioned veterans who show them the ropes. And suddenly, in a months' time, they're MR20 or so, have only ever played the game as a reskinned Sonic the Hedgehog without having actually experienced having to do it any other way. The helpfulness of the Warframe community is both a blessing and a curse in that regard. 

I've been playing since the very end of the open beta, and since then there have been a lot of improvements in the game, but in spite of all those improvements, I personally don't feel like the intersection between difficulty and power fantasy has ever been in a better place than it was way back then. And the most significant differences between then and now are the importance of crowd control, and the sheer speed that everyone FOMO's their way into doing everything, whether that be getting a taxi to Hydron (or whatever stupid node is en vogue these days) , or running sub-minute capture missions to grind for (insert whatever here) because it's the most "efficient". 

One last thing. I am 1000% pro roflstompwtfbbq. I would be ecstatic if they came out and said that they would no longer give any focus at all to making more difficult content. I would probably do a little happy dance if things like steel path just suddenly disappeared. My opinions about what I think the problems are, and how they could be fixed, are just that, opinions. They are, however, in good faith. And while they may not be the problems or solutions people want to hear, I honestly believe that what I said is at least worth consideration. Or not. 

TL;DR I'm old. Get off my lawn!

 

I'm ok with people thinking it's rude. Sometimes the truth isn't what people want to hear. But moving on, I'm definitely for players being slowed down in terms of progression but not ingame movement. And I do agree with a lot of points you make but I think the operator is the main cause of everything being too easy. Obviously we're on different sides of the fence with me wanting hard content and you wanting no challenge in the game so that's not never going to mesh well.

I'm not sure being bad at platforming is a reason to claim  a fight sucks but hey each to their own, I am quite good at platforming so I enjoyed and appreciated the design aspects of it instead. I have also been playing since stamina days when the levels were designed around the movement but I still think the main issue is operators trivializing everything, both movement and survivability. 

Lastly, I'm old too, don't use that as an excuse for wanting the game to be easy :D