When players discuss balance…

[CrimsonXX]

6 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Fixed that for you.

Do you really want to go the psychology route? Because objectively, it seems more like casuals just want easy victories to make up for their irl failings in an attempt to get quick ego boosts that make them forget their low self-esteems for a short time.

You're just trying to project your own issues on your counterpart and using that to make your point (yes, the fetish parts included since these may be just a part of yourself that you refuse to accept and explore)

Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I said before in tryhards looking down on ANYONE not going for tryhard obsessive's b.s. as "casuals"; regardless of their time in the game, knowledge of the lore of the game, and things they've done in the game. They don't follow the tryhard obsessive b.s. thus are automatically put as "casual" with a clear negative implication in its usage. I also find it hilarious the idea of me of all people wanting this game turned into anything else, when my whole point has been to keep the game as it is instead of warping it into a Dark Souls tryhard-fest. I'm also not the one looking for ego boosting, I'm looking for interesting story, lore, and aesthetic. I love the scifi action genre that Warframe presents and couldn't care less about bragging rights. But do keep going with your pathetic tier of fire-back

More with the "casuals" commentary, just gotta keep the elitism going I see. Anyway no, casuals wouldn't be focusing on those "easy victories"; they'd be enjoying any number of other things like aesthetics or lore. They aren't trying to be the best, just enjoy themselves and the game. Tryhards on the other hand go into obsessive modes and want things hard to the point of having the entire game against them, cause then they get to brag and feel better about themselves at the end. And/or on top of that just really liking punishment. That particular kink isn't on my list, so do stay away from psychological assessments; you suck royally at them.

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb gbjbaanb:

I doubt that. The ones doing the 6x3 runs and similar are playing for the dopamine hits that they are now addicted to. They are not playing for fun, but for the grind of the rewards, and I wonder sometimes if they can actually stop themselves.

Bullet jumping through a mission as quickly as possible, just to get it over and get to the reward section is not fun, yet that's exactly how most people play this thing. DE could introduce a new mission, no enemies, just "get to extraction" and people would play it over and over for a 0.1% drop reward.

That’s the arrogance I meant. Who do you think you are that you think you get to define what is fun for other people.

[CrimsonXX]

15 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Everyone plays for fun. That’s my point. You’re the one who thinks the only way to have fun is to play exactly the way you want to play.

Um no, someone obsessing over putting on the exact mods to enable them to get through a mission in under a min, in order to burn through 10 relics is not "playing for fun". Someone wanting to boost/stroke their own ego by going after a tough enemy is not "playing for fun". This distinction I can use my own example for in that back when Nioh first came out, I played it to a point for fun, then it became a matter of rage and the fun went out the window. Which is why once that transition happened I dropped that game and its been collecting dust in my PSN library for probably a year now. Getting enraged wasn't "fun", having the game itself turned against me the player alongside the enemies wasn't "fun"; it'd honestly be no different than going back to work.

[Krankbert]

Gerade eben schrieb CrimsonXX:

Um no, someone obsessing over putting on the exact mods to enable them to get through a mission in under a min, in order to burn through 10 relics is not "playing for fun". Someone wanting to boost/stroke their own ego by going after a tough enemy is not "playing for fun". This distinction I can use my own example for in that back when Nioh first came out, I played it to a point for fun, then it became a matter of rage and the fun went out the window. Which is why once that transition happened I dropped that game and its been collecting dust in my PSN library for probably a year now. Getting enraged wasn't "fun", having the game itself turned against me the player alongside the enemies wasn't "fun"; it'd honestly be no different than going back to work.

See my last comment. Asserting that you're really sure that other people aren't playing for fun doesn't prove anything except how far your head is in your posterior. Get some perspective. This is a video game. It shouldn't need to be explained to you that people play video games for fun.

[CrimsonXX]

8 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

See my last comment. Asserting that you're really sure that other people aren't playing for fun doesn't prove anything except how far your head is in your posterior. Get some perspective. This is a video game. It shouldn't need to be explained to you that people play video games for fun.

I don't need to assert anything, its basic logic. Even in this thread tryhards aren't playing for fun if they're complaining about challenge; they're wanting challenge. Trying to frame that as some "that's just what you think" is some spin from reality.

I have NO/ZERO/CERO interest in ever getting perspective from tryhards who live in eternal elitism and obsessive-ness as well as self-centered-ness.

Its a game, that is meant to be fun; you tryhards fail to grasp that idea and instead think everything should be about challenge/difficulty. Anyone not aligning to that is looked down on as a "casual". You know what is fun to me as pertains to Warframe in recent times: Going into a Railjack Skirmish, then going into a missile base or ship to sabotage it, popping back out to attack a target, back inside to again sabotage, then leaving. That is fun, not getting pounded into the dirt by enemies in the name of "challenge".

[Aldain]

12 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

Bullet jumping through a mission as quickly as possible, just to get it over and get to the reward section is not fun, yet that's exactly how most people play this thing. DE could introduce a new mission, no enemies, just "get to extraction" and people would play it over and over for a 0.1% drop reward.

One small factor about this issue.

There is ZERO reason to not blitz everything ASAP in Warframe, Caches in missions that they contain 90% garbage even for newbies, exploration loses its luster after you've seen everything once or twice, finding an Ayatan sculpture is usually the most a player might get for casing an entire tileset and most of the time you wind up having to wait for a counter to go down anyway so getting the counter started as fast as possible cuts down on wasted time.

It isn't just the fault of the players, the game design encourages it more and more the further you get, and the damage balance issues only compound these problems further because combat itself isn't fun and it all goes back to that "nuke or be nuked" issue as the level scaling climbs up.

[Krankbert]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb CrimsonXX:

I don't need to assert anything, its basic logic.

This is a video game. If basic logic leads you to the conclusion that there are large portions of the user base that don't play this video game for fun, then that only tells me that you take the game far too seriously. I know, ironic, isn't it.

[----Legacy----]

10 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I said before in tryhards looking down on ANYONE not going for tryhard obsessive's b.s. as "casuals"; regardless of their time in the game, knowledge of the lore of the game, and things they've done in the game. They don't follow the tryhard obsessive b.s. thus are automatically put as "casual" with a clear negative implication in its usage.

Thanks for demonstrating that your entire point is built around projecting your own personal issues in your conterpart, starting from the negative petception of "casual" even though during the whole thread you -just like most casual players tend to do- refer to those of us who enjoy challenge as "tryhards" as some sort of insult.

Btw, what even is the point of lording pseudo-achievements to back up your point, even more pointless to talk about the time in the game since even in mission time can be boosted by going afk on a relay or dojo; lore can be easily understood by digging a bit over the internet; and most of it all, boasting "things done in the game", a game that's one of the easiest shooters out there and you of all people acknowledge that you want it to remain this easy.

20 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

I'm looking for interesting story, lore, and aesthetic. I love the scifi action genre that Warframe presents

Don't we all? Otherwise we wouldn't be playing warframe to begin with.

21 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

couldn't care less about bragging rights.

There isn't much to brag about in warframe tbh.

23 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

More with the "casuals" commentary, just gotta keep the elitism going I see

See how you project everything? Elitism refers to defending a system that favors the existing elites, so it's not far fetched to say that casual players are just elitists defending the current status quo since it's what's benefit them. Who's the elitist then?

27 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

Anyway no, casuals wouldn't be focusing on those "easy victories"; they'd be enjoying any number of other things like aesthetics or lore.

I see nothing wrong on that, DE has even made all quest missions as easy as possible in order to make lore available for players on any prigression point.

 

28 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

Tryhards on the other hand go into obsessive modes and want things hard to the point of having the entire game against them,

No? We just want a challenge, a place where the power we have obtained over the years doesn't simply vaporize everything and where we aren't borderline immortal unless we choose to die in order to revive our sentinel.

31 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

cause then they get to brag and feel better about themselves at the end

I personally feel better about overcoming challenges, no need to brag about it to anyone else.

 

33 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

And/or on top of that just really liking punishment. That particular kink isn't on my list, so do stay away from psychological assessments; you suck royally at them.

You keep feeling the need to talk about those kinks, so the assessment seems on point. 

[CrimsonXX]

26 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

This is a video game. If basic logic leads you to the conclusion that there are large portions of the user base that don't play this video game for fun, then that only tells me that you take the game far too seriously. I know, ironic, isn't it.

Once again you literally have people complaining about wanting challenge/difficulty; THAT is their issue. THAT is literally not fun. Also I don't know the stats but I'd wager there's plenty of people that play this game just to get things as quickly as possible with no thoughts towards fun. Someone that does 10 relic cracks at like a min each, isn't doing it for fun; they're doing it cause there's something in those relics they're after. This shouldn't be that hard of a concept to grasp, yet here and I am with now 2 examples to try to demonstrate it.

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

Once again you literally have people complaining about wanting challenge/difficulty; THAT is their issue. THAT is literally not fun. Also I don't know the stats but I'd wager there's plenty of people that play this game just to get things as quickly as possible with no thoughts towards fun. Someone that does 10 relic cracks at like a min each, isn't doing it for fun; they're doing it cause there's something in those relics they're after

Sure are a lot of assumptions with no real evidence here.

6 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

This shouldn't be that hard of a concept to grasp, yet here and I am with now 2 examples to try to demonstrate it.

Maybe your examples are bad then, because they really are just biased assumptions at best.

[Sinekanter]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb CrimsonXX:

Once again you literally have people complaining about wanting challenge/difficulty; THAT is their issue. THAT is literally not fun. 

Pedagogy and developmental psychology beg to differ.

[----Legacy----]

9 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

Once again you literally have people complaining about wanting challenge/difficulty; THAT is their issue. THAT is literally not fun. Also I don't know the stats but I'd wager there's plenty of people that play this game just to get things as quickly as possible with no thoughts towards fun. Someone that does 10 relic cracks at like a min each, isn't doing it for fun; they're doing it cause there's something in those relics they're after. This shouldn't be that hard of a concept to grasp, yet here and I am with now 2 examples to try to demonstrate it.

What if they have fun from speedrunning relic runs to get rewards as quickly as possible?

Different people tend to have fun in different ways, but that concept seems to be a bit too hard for you to grasp.

[Aldain]

This is the part of every balance discussion I both love and loathe.

When almost everyone stops arguing about anything balance related and has a brief stint of relative unity when a flaming hot bad take shows up in a thread.

[CrimsonXX]

23 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Thanks for demonstrating that your entire point is built around projecting your own personal issues in your conterpart, starting from the negative petception of "casual" even though during the whole thread you -just like most casual players tend to do- refer to those of us who enjoy challenge as "tryhards" as some sort of insult.

Btw, what even is the point of lording pseudo-achievements to back up your point, even more pointless to talk about the time in the game since even in mission time can be boosted by going afk on a relay or dojo; lore can be easily understood by digging a bit over the internet; and most of it all, boasting "things done in the game", a game that's one of the easiest shooters out there and you of all people acknowledge that you want it to remain this easy.

Don't we all? Otherwise we wouldn't be playing warframe to begin with.

There isn't much to brag about in warframe tbh.

See how you project everything? Elitism refers to defending a system that favors the existing elites, so it's not far fetched to say that casual players are just elitists defending the current status quo since it's what's benefit them. Who's the elitist then?

I see nothing wrong on that, DE has even made all quest missions as easy as possible in order to make lore available for players on any prigression point.

 

No? We just want a challenge, a place where the power we have obtained over the years doesn't simply vaporize everything and where we aren't borderline immortal unless we choose to die in order to revive our sentinel.

I personally feel better about overcoming challenges, no need to brag about it to anyone else.

 

You keep feeling the need to talk about those kinks, so the assessment seems on point. 

Um no, both in terms of general usage as well as specifically in this forum/these responses there's a known negative connotation to the word "casual"; no projection needed. As for
"tryhard", yeah I'll keep using that for a specific section of people that fit the label which is far more limited than the all encompassing "casual" one. One tries to degrade everything one has done and experience in a game to them still just being a "casual"; while the other is an accurate description for a section of people that try too hard for the bragging rights/ego stroking.

You miss the point of bringing those things up at all. The point wasn't some "better than you", it was pointing out how tryhards will handwave away someone who by all merits is a "veteran" simply because they don't follow the tryhard ideology; thus getting put as a "casual". They don't seek challenge like you thus nothing else matters and they get put as just "casual fodder" (not my words, but commentary I've run across in my years of playing MMO's). Though you taking that as a shot at your status and once again going into dismissing away anything other than your precious challenge only further shows how limited and self-centered your view is.

As for the "easy" of the game: a) its "easy" because you've likely gone into "nuke builds", maxed out mods, min-maxed to hell and back, and ride in squads which not everyone has; b) I've already mentioned that I'd be fine with increasing certain areas of enemies just not to Dark Souls tier and not in the vein of a Bursa being able to lock someone to the floor unable to do anything just so that tryhards can get off to showing off their wall leaps and snipe shots. Since the Remaster has just come out: I'd rather the game go Mass Effect than Dark Souls.

No, undoubtedly you don't. The thing you've chosen to latch onto is "challenge" and anything else is of lesser concern; especially with you just a bit up in the post handwaving everything else but challenge as counting towards someone being anything else but a "casual".

Wasn't meant specifically to Warframe, though doesn't matter cause you're salty that Warframe doesn't punish you hard enough to get you off

Elitism is putting yourself over others, because of a perceived better trait. Not Merriam-Webster definition but its basically the one I know. Which again I point back to your completely handwaving anything other than challenge as being valid as proof towards. You act like your higher tier than others because you're a tryhard and everyone else is just a "lazy" (to use the other tryhard's description) "casual"; because they dare to not seek out challenge.

I'm legit so tired of seeing this b.s. you don't want to vaporize things? DON'T RUN WITH MAX MODS AND "NUKE" BUILDS. You do so its YOUR CHOICE to do it. Not everyone has that luxury, for those that don't there's plenty of challenge to be found; though I highly doubt you care or bother to consider that.

Regardless of the bragging itself or not, you get off to the challenge; which is exactly what I've been saying. Dark Souls, Nioh, Bloodborne, etc exist for exactly that.

I talk about that kink because it fits the bill. Am I supposed to ignore the blatant getting off on being punished by a game for tryhards? If that were my thing I'd be one myself, however I actively despise the idea of ever crossing into being a tryhard

[CrimsonXX]

23 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Sure are a lot of assumptions with no real evidence here.

Maybe your examples are bad then, because they really are just biased assumptions at best.

Another tryhard enters the fray.

Evidence like what exactly? Last I checked empaths/psychics aren't a legit thing able to pull thoughts out of people's heads to provide solid evidence of mental focuses. What can be deduced is looking at situations and seeing the obvious focus in play. The relic example I already mentioned clearly would showcase someone's focus as getting whatever item, not fun; cause I highly doubt anyone thinks cracking a relic, the act in itself, is fun or thrilling. That doesn't require a mind-reader to deduce.

"baised assumptions" more like using one's brain and basic logic; though that may be beyond you.

[Loza03]

You'd think I'd stop getting use out of this eventually, but here we are.

 

[CrimsonXX]

28 minutes ago, Sinekanter said:

Pedagogy and developmental psychology beg to differ.

Not particularly, unless they somehow change the focus of that. Wanting challenge is wanting challenge; its not the same as wanting fun. The two can be linked, however if the FOCUS is on challenge, then that's the focus not the fun which at most could be a side-effect. I can find fun plenty without needing to have my teeth kicked in metaphorically by a game, in fact in most cases having a game metaphorically do that leads to the exact opposite of fun and ends up with me becoming bored.

[CrimsonXX]

32 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

What if they have fun from speedrunning relic runs to get rewards as quickly as possible?

Different people tend to have fun in different ways, but that concept seems to be a bit too hard for you to grasp.

While I don't have the stats nor a mindreader available, I highly doubt anyone does that for fun. Like I can see someone maybe doing some race of sorts within their friends with that sort of thing, thus having THAT be fun; but just running relics by itself is a stretch.

Different people have different focuses in the things they do, sometimes it can overlap with "fun"; doesn't mean that having fun was their focus the entire time. Someone trying to hit top of the leaderboards of x-competitive game, if achieving that can gain a feeling of fun from it but their focus would've still been reaching the top of the leaderboard not trying to have fun. Then again you're trying to use whatever you can to back up tryhard's obsession and ego stroking.

[Sinekanter]

vor 1 Minute schrieb CrimsonXX:

Not particularly, unless they somehow change the focus of that. Wanting challenge is wanting challenge; its not the same as wanting fun. The two can be linked, however if the FOCUS is on challenge, then that's the focus not the fun which at most could be a side-effect. I can find fun plenty without needing to have my teeth kicked in metaphorically by a game, in fact in most cases having a game metaphorically do that leads to the exact opposite of fun and ends up with me becoming bored.

Nobody is claiming that you can't have fun with an easy game. And if they did, I would also disagree with them. The only thing I am seeing here is you claiming that challenge can't be fun. Which is absolutely not true.

What else do you think does drive children to develop and become better in certain tasks? Logic and reason? A paycheck? Because they don't care about that. They only care about enjoyment, fun. If a task or game is too easy and unfulfilling, they will stop doing it. They require a new stimulus, which can be achieved by either changing things up (in qny kind of way, even if it is just getting a new reward from a drop table) or by making things harder. 

[Aldain]

Just now, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Why is everyone fighting? Last time i opened this thread discussion seemed to be harmless.. 

It isn't everybody fighting, one person is trying to assert that you cannot have both fun and challenge at the same time as an empiric truth and most of us are just dumbfounded by that.

[----Legacy----]

39 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

As for "tryhard", yeah I'll keep using that for a specific section of people that fit the label which is far more limited than the all encompassing "casual" one. One tries to degrade everything one has done and experience in a game to them still just being a "casual"; while the other is an accurate description for a section of people that try too hard for the bragging rights/ego stroking.

In the name of Teshin, I hereby declare you a "Forum Tryhard". I hope you wear this label with proud since you fit it quite well.

42 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

The point wasn't some "better than you", it was pointing out how tryhards will handwave away someone who by all merits is a "veteran" simply because they don't follow the tryhard ideology; thus getting put as a "casual".

And here comes the buzzword "Veteran", a pointless title that's usually achieved by proving to have lots of experience in a specific area. Making this word appear is weird since it's commonly used as a "better than you" argument, and even more since right after using it you complain of your "achievements" being handwaved for stuff really easy to boost. 

It's quite weird to see you lord that you are "by al merits a veteran" after how long you've tried to claim that you seek no ego stroke; even more since right after doing it youstart complaining over your pseudo-achievements being handwaved for being too easy. I guess that's what it was actually all about.

 

48 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

As for the "easy" of the game: a) its "easy" because you've likely gone into "nuke builds", maxed out mods, min-maxed to hell and back, and ride in squads which not everyone has

Thanks for showing once again that your entire point is made from baseless assumptions. The game is easy since i learnt parkour and can aim at enemies while moving at fast speeds. I have no maxed mods, let alone builds or setups simply because i'm aware that getting there would make the entire game even easier than it already is.

53 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

No, undoubtedly you don't. The thing you've chosen to latch onto is "challenge" and anything else is of lesser concern; especially with you just a bit up in the post handwaving everything else but challenge as counting towards someone being anything else but a "casual".

So i guess now you have a mindreader and know how my brains works better than myself, and the same applies to that of everyone else in this thread. (That or i'm right on that you're projecting the way yours work onto everyone else's to push your point)

59 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

Elitism is putting yourself over others, because of a perceived better trait. Not Merriam-Webster definition but its basically the one I know.

You should definitely look for the meaning of the word before using it any further. But even with your own wrong definition you're an elitist since in the same post you're claiming to be "by all merits a Veteran" (and complaining over those merits being handwaved) in an attempt to put yourself over others and push your point.

1 hour ago, CrimsonXX said:

I'm legit so tired of seeing this b.s. you don't want to vaporize things? DON'T RUN WITH MAX MODS AND "NUKE" BUILDS. You do so its YOUR CHOICE to do it. Not everyone has that luxury, for those that don't there's plenty of challenge to be found; though I highly doubt you care or bother to consider that.

The thing is: we, players (at least those of us who enjoy challenge), shouldn't have the need to gimp ourselves in order to find challenge. On the other hand, players who dislike challenge (because "casual" seems to be a bit too harsh for you) can always stay away from it by simply sticking to low-mid level areas and keep vaporizing enemies left and right.

1 hour ago, CrimsonXX said:

Regardless of the bragging itself or not, you get off to the challenge; which is exactly what I've been saying. Dark Souls, Nioh, Bloodborne, etc exist for exactly that

Been there, played them, and none of them has warframe's parkour, aesthetics, or lore and those things are as important as challenge in a game. On the other hand, there's also plenty of games like cookie clicker if you want a game that can be beaten while you're afk or watching a movie, but i'm not gonna send you there exactly for the same reason i'm not going to any other challenging game.

 

55 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

While I don't have the stats nor a mindreader available, I highly doubt anyone does that for fun. Like I can see someone maybe doing some race of sorts within their friends with that sort of thing, thus having THAT be fun; but just running relics by itself is a stretch.

Got it, the only way to play warframe and have fun is to play it your way; everyone trying something else is not playing for fun but "may" be getting a tiny bit of it as a side effect.

[DrivaMain]

Oh boy, this thread is gonna get locked if this derailing keeps happening.

Mods? Can you clean up the mess? @Letter13 

[Brinstar7777]

On 2021-05-14 at 9:34 AM, stormy505 said:

'we can't have good boss fights without good balance'

Is just straight up wrong. Take wolf as an example, when he first came out, he actually had a gear check to kill him and made players change their loadout to deal with him, still wasn't a good boss fight because he was effectively a bullet sponge.

Good boss fights in Warframe: tridolons/orb mothers are the two best examples. They have gear checks like wolf but the thing that makes them good boss fights is the new mechanics they introduce to make them not just a bullet sponge.

Tldr: challenge does not equal a good boss, and a good boss fight doesn't necessarily need challenge.

Actually, you can't have good boss fights without good balance. What good is a boss having new mechanics if he's either so pathetically weak a tenno could one-shot him with his fists, or so overwhelmingly powerful the tenno's most powerful attack does only 1 point of damage. Having fancy mechanics is useless if the players can't enjoy those mechanics.

'

[Krankbert]

 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb CrimsonXX:

I'm legit so tired of seeing this b.s. you don't want to vaporize things? DON'T RUN WITH MAX MODS AND "NUKE" BUILDS.

And I'm tired of repeating myself.

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Krankbert:

Because I'm way too tired of explaining this to people over and over again every single time this topic comes up to explain it twice to the same guy. "Throttling his power", i.e. intentionally making bad gear choices, i.e. intentionally playing bad, isn't a challenge. I don't expect you to agree, I don't even expect you to get it, but I expect you to understand on an intellectual level that this is what some people think and to stop proposing it to those people as if it solved anything.

You obviously aren't interested in other people's opinions and viewpoints. Judging by everything you've written so far, you don't even understand the concept. I really wonder what you're getting out of posting here.

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Brinstar7777:

Actually, you can't have good boss fights without good balance. What good is a boss having new mechanics if he's either so pathetically weak a tenno could one-shot him with his fists, or so overwhelmingly powerful the tenno's most powerful attack does only 1 point of damage. Having fancy mechanics is useless if the players can't enjoy those mechanics.

DE found a third option with the Nihil boss fight - level the playing field by eliminating all elements of Warframe from the boss fight. Some people apparently like it, but I personally think that if I wanted to play something that isn't Warframe, there's a ton of better games for that style of boss fight.