The problem with guns: DE's design breaks them.

[TARINunit9]

10 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Doom is a different game so I'm not sure why that matters. 

Yes, that is my point. That Warframe is in a different genre of games where balance is handled completely different. That is to say, there is none. And as this fellow poster points out:

11 hours ago, orangescythe1990 said:

This is just wrong though. Most game that relies on loot and levels will not allow you to do this. Just for comparison sakes we'll consider the games that's in pretty much the same category as Warframe that are

1. Destiny

2. Borderlands

3. Outriders

4. Anthem

and so on and so forth. None of these games are going to allow you to do their more difficult activities without the right gear for it. Destiny in particular if you come in without the right weapons you're just going to wipe repeatedly. The rest of them get progressively more difficult to downright impossible if you do not consistently upgrade your weapons. 

It's a feature, not a bug. The fact these games have no real difficulty, we don't treat that as a bad thing

My point in all of this, is that OP, the guy who started this thread, is trying to treat symptoms when he is frustrated with the disease (for lack of a less negative term). He wants to balance guns because critical hits bypass the Juggernaut's DPS cap and melee weapons can abuse crits better, all while ignoring that what he truly wants can't be fixed with tweaks. What he is dissatisfied with is baked into the game

Oh and one final note.

10 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

And nothing of a meaningful level is dying in one hit. The starchart is for everyone, including less experienced players, so it has to be easy because it's used to progress further into the game.

You really do. If you don't have enough damage to one shot the Lancers/Crewmen of the respective mission, you aren't doing enough damage. This has been true since I started playing in 2015, where Jupiter killed me constantly until I switched from Paris (which with my mods, couldn't one-shot even with a headshot) to the Cernos (which could). It was true then, it's true today. And don't bring up CC, I already did earlier

[Traumtulpe]

8 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

He wants to balance guns because critical hits bypass the Juggernaut's DPS cap and melee weapons can abuse crits better, all while ignoring that what he truly wants can't be fixed with tweaks.

How did you get that impression? I said that status immunity renders many guns ineffective, and that wonky DPS falloff doesn't help either (and strongly favours melee). Those are 2 distinct mechanics DE chose to implement into the game, that are not at all inherent to this type of game, and could be removed at the click of a button.

[eBlaise]

I think, in some ways the OP is missing the point, and I might be somewhat off topic here, I agree with what they brought up for the most part, but it's not the only reason melee is so prevalent, there are a handful of primaries and sidearms that see a lot of usage, some, in very niche cases, like for specific boss hunting, where the heavy pinpoint damage is the only way (eidolons and snipers), and AoE weapons, most notably the kuva bramma and nukor, for different reasons, the nukor can in itself kill, but by its nature (the bonus microvave status, and its AoE status application) makes it a great tool that ties back into the OP's argument for status stuff, but for the reason I'm saying they are missing the point somewhat, is that the vast majority of the game irevolves around killing a ton of enemies, and outside of a few specific missions, your goal is never to defeat a single powerful enemy, and our reward progression isn't tied to defeating such enemies either, our goals generally revolve around rushing through missions as quickly and efficienlty as possible, and that usually means wiping out as large a cluster of enemies in a single stroke as possible, and that usually means AoE, and that goes for melee, a selection of warframe abilities pushed to extremes, and the aforementioned handful of guns that provide sufficient AoE capabilities, in the current meta/design space, there is just no real need for single target damage (aside from a handful of noted exceptions), and thus, such guns fall by the wayside.
And by all this, I don't mean to say "give aoe to everything to make them useful", but rather that there should be a design space given to them where they are the best, or even only option, and I don't see that happening, at least not in a way that would be popular in any way.
And in all honesty I can't see a reasonable way out to fix this issue, -and thankfully it's not my job either-. 
 

[EnwoQ]

Thinking about it means that damage will be increased with fire rate and multishot but status dmg do not because both will increase the sheer amount of status but not the the dmg of those procs

So only solution is to include multishot and fire rate in the formula for status proc dmg like crit?

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Oh and one final note.

You really do. If you don't have enough damage to one shot the Lancers/Crewmen of the respective mission, you aren't doing enough damage. This has been true since I started playing in 2015, where Jupiter killed me constantly until I switched from Paris (which with my mods, couldn't one-shot even with a headshot) to the Cernos (which could). It was true then, it's true today. And don't bring up CC, I already did earlier

As someone who constantly engages starchart content with gear that doesn’t immediately kill and mods that don’t make me invincible, I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I don’t need to kill lancers in many missions in one shot with many weapons (I’m leveling the Quartakk at the moment), and I’ll still make it through in a comfortable amount of time with a limited amount of deaths due to a combination of all my equipment and abilities (I’m not a fan of bullet sponges).

Perhaps in 2015 what I say was wrong, but the stat adjustment made relatively recently seems to have put (example) Lancers and Minigunners in a fairly comfortable range of each other. Bombards and eximi are pretty crunchy, but armour reduction levels the playing field

Bosses are a different story. Alad is a good fight, but so far Ambulas and Tyl have been a league above the fights leading to them. (that said, I haven’t tried all my options, and there might be a trick to them)

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

As someone who constantly engages starchart content with gear that doesn’t immediately kill and mods that don’t make me invincible, I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I don’t need to kill lancers in many missions in one shot with many weapons (I’m leveling the Quartakk at the moment), and I’ll still make it through in a comfortable amount of time with a limited amount of deaths due to a combination of all my equipment and abilities (I’m not a fan of bullet sponges).

Perhaps in 2015 what I say was wrong, but the stat adjustment made relatively recently seems to have put (example) Lancers and Minigunners in a fairly comfortable range of each other. Bombards and eximi are pretty crunchy, but armour reduction levels the playing field

Bosses are a different story. Alad is a good fight, but so far Ambulas and Tyl have been a league above the fights leading to them. (that said, I haven’t tried all my options, and there might be a trick to them)

One issue is the variance in enemy damage. Enemy damage is of the 'only somewhat avoidable' sort in this game. Hitscan, untelegraphed aoes, and projectiles usually either homing or in the form of lanes of rapid-fire. It's hard or impossible to avoid damage by skill alone, especially not when. This, alone, isn't much of a problem. The issue lies in that players also have a ton of health variance.

This means that the damage enemies deal legitimately can't be a fair amount. Because the amount of damage that results in a reasonable TTK for a well-built tanky frame will nearly insta-gib a squishy, and did prior to Warframe Revised. Having players waltz around borderline invincible isn't acceptable, because then you've lost one of the main, if not the only 'lose' conditions in the game. Getting insta-killed by some random mook, however, isn't fun and never has been.

This carries over to guns because some frames really do need everything to be dead now. Others don't. So that's another issue to making guns balanced.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

16 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Go into a sortie with MK1 weapons and no mods on anything. No items either, no Amp. Just try to play without getting really annoyed

Ok...now, mod that weapon and utilize it based on your selected Warframe load-out and watch it do exactly what you need it to do. I took unforma'd twin gremlins to a level three sortie and they were knocking out enemies. Heavy gunners took two extra seconds, as expected. The twins were at level 14 at the time with my MR28 capacity allowance. 99.9% of all weapons in Warframe are useful everywhere except steel path and Loooooong endurance runs...which both are not a part of the base game's parameters.

 

[ReddyDisco]

guns do less damage artificially with more fire rate

well i'll be damned, DE really hates guns huh 

[TARINunit9]

7 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

How did you get that impression? I said that status immunity renders many guns ineffective, and that wonky DPS falloff doesn't help either (and strongly favours melee). Those are 2 distinct mechanics DE chose to implement into the game, that are not at all inherent to this type of game, and could be removed at the click of a button.

I think you're only kicking the can down the road if you get this wish

50 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Ok...now, mod that weapon and utilize it based on your selected Warframe load-out and watch it do exactly what you need it to do. 

You've missed my point, dude

[Traumtulpe]

40 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

guns do less damage artificially with more fire rate

well i'll be damned, DE really hates guns huh 

I edited my first post to give a proper demonstration:

20 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Edit: Since a lot of people didn't seem to know about the DPS "normalization", I'd like to demonstrate it properly. In the following video I used the exact same setup to the previous one, with one exception: I removed Arcane Acceleration / Arcane Velocity (which previously increased my fire-rate). You'd expect I would deal less damage per second, but I actually deal more instead (easier to notice with the Catabolyst, as the other fight wasn't as clean as I would have liked)